MasterHavik
Well-Known Member
oh okay. I can't wait to do flips in Lisa's swimsuit.
La Mariposa's Needed Improvements
- Thread starter Kodachi
- Start date
MajesticBlue
Active Member
All you have to do is mash it out like the Izuna. Spin and time the throw. At least that is how I used to do it.
MasterHavik
Well-Known Member
oh okay.
Slowest elbow in the game is 15f. Is that fast enough?
DrDogg
Well-Known Member
Make the throw an OH? Not as good as working a stun but it would make it more guaranteed, and would stay in the offensive since one don't have to think about whether you better stay offensive or turn defensive (so long she has a BT attack to crush lows).
What guard breaks does she have now? Has she got anything like Bass' 6pp?
Make her jab faster. 10 frames would be ideal so she could at least tie with Kasumi/Christie when at advantage.
Make standing 5k faster.
Fix her body tackle hit box. Seriously. It needs to be less crushable, and I'm sick of catapulting over other characters when they step back to charge a power blow or anything evasive - this is relatively bad on block mid punch already. Needs more priority, too. On the level of Kokoro's 214p maybe.
Make running k track.
2p should trip stun like BT 2p.
Give 3k, 5k -> 3k, +1 frame advantage on block (or at least range safe like DOA4). Dumb that it's -8.
7k should guard break on block.
Swap her current low OH with her low throw.
Then I'd be content.
Make standing 5k faster.
Fix her body tackle hit box. Seriously. It needs to be less crushable, and I'm sick of catapulting over other characters when they step back to charge a power blow or anything evasive - this is relatively bad on block mid punch already. Needs more priority, too. On the level of Kokoro's 214p maybe.
Make running k track.
2p should trip stun like BT 2p.
Give 3k, 5k -> 3k, +1 frame advantage on block (or at least range safe like DOA4). Dumb that it's -8.
7k should guard break on block.
Swap her current low OH with her low throw.
Then I'd be content.
MasterHavik
Well-Known Member
Umm...I would make some of her strigns hit. She has a lot of strings that just seem to whiff for no reason.
Batcommander
Well-Known Member
I deleted my original wish list, since having had more time to play with the game, there's a lot less to wish for. (for now at least lol). Seriously, she's much much better than i initially thought. A lot of the changes i'd like now are mostly quality of life changes.
1. extend the hitbox on standing K
2. fix the hitbox on qcf P
3. 3K4 to be +1-3 on block or 3K to cause sitdown on counter hit(ha! yeah right)
4. 9P to have some built in sabaki/evade/attack property
5. 1KK to be unholdable and/or guard break
6. Carrera P and PPP into splash feint to cross over standing opponent's head every single time instead of just some of the time on hit and especially on block.
7. Carrera slide to be much faster
8. BT OH to be faster, make it about same frames as splash, ~30 frames
9. Carrera K to be faster than 66K, Carrera PK to be safe
That's about it really. She's a pretty buff character if you play her defensively, i think. On top of that, all her good moves are safe or can be made safe with BT transitions.
1. extend the hitbox on standing K
2. fix the hitbox on qcf P
3. 3K4 to be +1-3 on block or 3K to cause sitdown on counter hit(ha! yeah right)
4. 9P to have some built in sabaki/evade/attack property
5. 1KK to be unholdable and/or guard break
6. Carrera P and PPP into splash feint to cross over standing opponent's head every single time instead of just some of the time on hit and especially on block.
7. Carrera slide to be much faster
8. BT OH to be faster, make it about same frames as splash, ~30 frames
9. Carrera K to be faster than 66K, Carrera PK to be safe
That's about it really. She's a pretty buff character if you play her defensively, i think. On top of that, all her good moves are safe or can be made safe with BT transitions.
If I was to request Buffs I would ask for..
1. Make BT F+P an OH. I really don't see why they didn't in the first place.
2. Make some moves more tracking. It makes too many moves/string useless because of this. If you're not going to make them track make them faster.
3. Carrera should be a bit faster. K after should start up faster, and F+P fom Carrera should either come out faster, or go further.
4. 9P should be faster. Other wise it's useless and have too many tools with it no one is going to use.
5.9K should either be faster, or track. It's easy to hold because how slow it is, or you can just SS it.
6. You also should be able to do her CB from a BT. This would make it more useful than it is.
1. Make BT F+P an OH. I really don't see why they didn't in the first place.
2. Make some moves more tracking. It makes too many moves/string useless because of this. If you're not going to make them track make them faster.
3. Carrera should be a bit faster. K after should start up faster, and F+P fom Carrera should either come out faster, or go further.
4. 9P should be faster. Other wise it's useless and have too many tools with it no one is going to use.
5.9K should either be faster, or track. It's easy to hold because how slow it is, or you can just SS it.
6. You also should be able to do her CB from a BT. This would make it more useful than it is.
Batcommander
Well-Known Member
Forgot to mention:
qcf throw needs a buff somehow. It only does 5 more damage than 66 throw, but it is i20.
I think TN may have given this to Lisa to mixup with qcf K during CB mixups since they are the same frames, but meh.
I think if it had evasive properties built in at the start (she crouches at the beginning), or did some more damage it could be pretty good.
qcf throw needs a buff somehow. It only does 5 more damage than 66 throw, but it is i20.
I think TN may have given this to Lisa to mixup with qcf K during CB mixups since they are the same frames, but meh.
I think if it had evasive properties built in at the start (she crouches at the beginning), or did some more damage it could be pretty good.
ailingeternity
Active Member
Forgot to mention:
qcf throw needs a buff somehow. It only does 5 more damage than 66 throw, but it is i20.
I think TN may have given this to Lisa to mixup with qcf K during CB mixups since they are the same frames, but meh.
I think if it had evasive properties built in at the start (she crouches at the beginning), or did some more damage it could be pretty good.
also has better range, not sure about the active hitboxes between the two though, that could play a factor in why it exists in her movelist, but I agree it definitley needs better application, maybe give that more range than to scare the OP into playing less offensively.Also I think that her low throw and her low OH need to swap, Lisa's game revolves around heavy shenanigans and mostly hold baiting, while
. is a fantastic move against crouchers (low hold spammers), it's very rare you'll get it on hi-counter, if she can punish with the fabulous deja vu from standing she should punish with an equally fabulous low throw. It would put her on par with other grapplers in the game.As for her being a faster character, imo she doesn't need it, she deals well in using her ranged attacks and spacing to initiate counter hits and start her shenanigans from there. A common struggle with Lisa is at the start of a fight where she has only basic defensive options to deal with 11 frame mids, being to block, hold or back away. She only needs an 11 frame jab to deal with it, nothing less.
Batcommander
Well-Known Member
You brought some good points about the low throws, Ailing. I doubt TN would do anything about it, though. I am thankful that she at least has a 5 frame low throw.
Batcommander
Well-Known Member
Forgot something else.
BT needs to be fixed so that it doesn't push that far away on hit AND block. Not even booty bump can reach the opponent on hit, and you have +25 from it too.
Sure it has its uses for smashing people into walls, but at i31 i believe your time is better spent elsewhere. It'd be great to have a sitdown stun from BT that's practical
This move also has some weird properties. It starts off as a high crush, but turns into a low crush as she leaps off the ground.
BT
needs to be fixed so that it doesn't push that far away on hit AND block. Not even booty bump can reach the opponent on hit, and you have +25 from it too.Sure it has its uses for smashing people into walls, but at i31 i believe your time is better spent elsewhere. It'd be great to have a sitdown stun from BT that's practical
This move also has some weird properties. It starts off as a high crush, but turns into a low crush as she leaps off the ground.
Neige
Member
After doing a lot of Mariposa training and playing, I'd say that the single most important improvement she needs would be an improvement to her 9P.
The way I see it, Lisa is all about offensive movement and pressure games. I dare say it's what characterizes her as a DOA fighter. I understand people wanting a buff to her Carrera, but the Carrera works. She even get's forward movement off her backturned transitions such as the moonsault and the Corbata and although the hitboxes should be fixed so that they are higher, these tactics can work.
9P flies too low. The options off 9P are trash too; 9PP has no reason to exist as it does nothing 9PK does better. And 9PK is just a worse 9KK. Were I to offer ideas (and I honestly believe this is something that needs to be rethought from the ground up), I'd just steal ideas from VF and use El Blaze's Screw Leg Lariat for 9PK as a high circular kick that stuns (no need to make it unholdable, but make it stagger heavy since the entire move actually takes longer than a 9K) and 9PP as a cross body block flying mid that knocks down. Like a faster moonsault, come to think of it.
EDIT: since I suppose it's too late to add moves, the only thing that can be done is fix 9P to have sabaki options or something and fix 9PP so that it stuns. 9PK can be her "get off me" move that pushes back on block or hit.
Players should be encouraged to use 9P more, as it is in-tune with Lisa's general strategy of building pressure tactics through forward movement. Hitboxes should either be fixed so that 9P is immune to mids or be given sabaki properties; and maybe this should be extended to 8T, moonsaults and their variants (not 9K, though).
Apart from that...
Corbata from BT should be at least as quick as Dragonrana.
Scrap 64T. Give the option for 44T to go into Carrera, no need to have stuff guaranteed, just give a way to Carrera from throw range at i6.
Carrera H+K should force-tech. I mean, come on, that should be obvious.
But seriously, FIX 9P!
The way I see it, Lisa is all about offensive movement and pressure games. I dare say it's what characterizes her as a DOA fighter. I understand people wanting a buff to her Carrera, but the Carrera works. She even get's forward movement off her backturned transitions such as the moonsault and the Corbata and although the hitboxes should be fixed so that they are higher, these tactics can work.
9P flies too low. The options off 9P are trash too; 9PP has no reason to exist as it does nothing 9PK does better. And 9PK is just a worse 9KK. Were I to offer ideas (and I honestly believe this is something that needs to be rethought from the ground up), I'd just steal ideas from VF and use El Blaze's Screw Leg Lariat for 9PK as a high circular kick that stuns (no need to make it unholdable, but make it stagger heavy since the entire move actually takes longer than a 9K) and 9PP as a cross body block flying mid that knocks down. Like a faster moonsault, come to think of it.
EDIT: since I suppose it's too late to add moves, the only thing that can be done is fix 9P to have sabaki options or something and fix 9PP so that it stuns. 9PK can be her "get off me" move that pushes back on block or hit.
Players should be encouraged to use 9P more, as it is in-tune with Lisa's general strategy of building pressure tactics through forward movement. Hitboxes should either be fixed so that 9P is immune to mids or be given sabaki properties; and maybe this should be extended to 8T, moonsaults and their variants (not 9K, though).
Apart from that...
Corbata from BT should be at least as quick as Dragonrana.
Scrap 64T. Give the option for 44T to go into Carrera, no need to have stuff guaranteed, just give a way to Carrera from throw range at i6.
Carrera H+K should force-tech. I mean, come on, that should be obvious.
But seriously, FIX 9P!
Batcommander
Well-Known Member
Yeah, i wonder what they were thinking this move. You can even use it off 1k strings, but why? Every move after it is linear and slow too, it's just mind bogglingly bad.Personally, i love the move, and apparently TN wants us to use it since they incorporated it into more strings, but even on stun, you're not going to do shit with it. It just looks cool
Corbata and dragonrana have roughly the same frames, i think they should both be lowered to about 30 frames tho, instead of being almost 40 -_- But then, if TN lowered the frames, you'd have a shitload of advantage after leaping over an opponent.
I want body splash and feint to have better hurtboxes because they can be crushed by basically ANY standing attack, but i understand why. Basically, if splash was any better, it would have the ability to potentially crush any wakeup attack.
With that said, splash feint shouldn't even have a hurtbox, imo, or at least a smaller one than it is now.
edit: Just browsing through this thread again, and it seems DrDogg found Lisa's 46 throw to be quite buff. I assume it used to be just like that early promo vid where booty bump became a limbo stun against BT opponents, because it sure as hell isn't anything too special now lol
Corbata and dragonrana have roughly the same frames, i think they should both be lowered to about 30 frames tho, instead of being almost 40 -_- But then, if TN lowered the frames, you'd have a shitload of advantage after leaping over an opponent.
I want body splash and feint to have better hurtboxes because they can be crushed by basically ANY standing attack, but i understand why. Basically, if splash was any better, it would have the ability to potentially crush any wakeup attack.
With that said, splash feint shouldn't even have a hurtbox, imo, or at least a smaller one than it is now.
edit: Just browsing through this thread again, and it seems DrDogg found Lisa's 46 throw to be quite buff. I assume it used to be just like that early promo vid where booty bump became a limbo stun against BT opponents, because it sure as hell isn't anything too special now lol
i honestly think lisa's bt p+k is fine as it is. sure its slow, but it has enough advantage(+17) to allow for fast enough guaranteed stuns or mixups.
i personally feel that she is fine as she is aside from a glitch after the use of BT P+K that makes her twitch, leaving her at -8 if you attempt to use 1P or 1K