Tapping 33 or 11 puts you faster in a crouching state as 2 and you don't run into the risk of doing an accidential freestep instead.
DOA5LR Tips and strategies against all characters
- Thread starter KING JAIMY
- Start date
Tapping 33 or 11 puts you faster in a crouching state as 2 and you don't run into the risk of doing an accidential freestep instead.
Lulu
Well-Known Member
I thought that wasn't going to happen anyway if you hold down the Guard button....
Pictured Mind
Well-Known Member
Has bad ranged game.Her useful moves with a high reach are usually low kicks (BKO 2K, BT 66K, SS K, 66K).
Her 66P and BKO 66P cause knockback, that means she can't get a stun going (something Helena loves to do), which makes them a lot less useful then the kicks mentioned before.
This is one of the most widely spread misconceptions around the whole (FSD) community if you ask me. All the things that make her having a so called "bad" range game are completely neutralized by her other special abilities, which are in particular crawling around on the ground all day while having one of the most retarded hit- and hurtboxes in the whole game that makes almost of her opponents range tools completely useless as well as the fact that it doesn't matter what you put on the screen against her in range, she'll still crush it, even out of the negatives.
Pictured Mind
Well-Known Member
Her other abilities don't take away the fact most of her good ranged attacks are low kicks (by good I mean stuff that you can actually use as a ranged attack, unlike 66H+K and BT 6P+K which have good range but are too slow to be used effectively). Not to mention most of the kicks I listed are throw punishable (SS K, BT 66 K and BKO 2K). What you're talking about is evasiveness, which is obviously one of her best attributes. Like I said, in terms of attack, she's not good at range.
And no, it doesn't "make almost all of her opponents range tools completely useless." You're still playing a mind game, even at range. There are characters who are really effective if they space her out.
Helena is a cqc character, not a spacer/zoner/whatever.
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She still has the mid option available, that's why you won't simply low hold at will. As you say:
And I have yet to see someone who can react to all these "too slow" low kicks, even on high level tournament play.
Helena does not need to be more careful or anything as other characters when there is space between both players, due to given evasiveness and crush ability. Your inital post said that she has a bad range game and therefore did not only refer to her opportunities for offensive from range. Avoiding and crushing the opponents moves also plays a role there, and yeah, her approach for getting in might not be the best, but that does not mean her whole game in this deparment is bad.
It does. When I see her crushing mid kicks or punches that beat other characters lows all day with attacks that come out of her BKO then there is nothing else to say. And even zoners like Ein or Jann Lee have to take care of what they put on the screen to keep her at range, because a whiff due to her sitting in her stance usually means she's right there where she's best at, meaning that she does not even has to come in with her moderate range attacks on her own.
It's not that I said anything different.
Lulu
Well-Known Member
Range is definitely not an issue for Helena, hell she has a couple of Rush Down moves that leave her in Bokuho.... they're not safe but trying to punish them Is a massive pain in the neck.
Whats funny is she doesn't even need to come close, shes alot more lethal when played passively.... you need to approach with care and caution....... lest you get put in the Blender.
Whats funny is she doesn't even need to come close, shes alot more lethal when played passively.... you need to approach with care and caution....... lest you get put in the Blender.
Pictured Mind
Well-Known Member
I'm just saying what I find her best moves at range. The mind game is obviously not character specific, it's DOA. Of course she can do other things, she could also run up and throw.
I didn't mention "all these "too slow" low kicks." I was talking about other moves.
In my post I went on talking about her offensive moves, which I thought would make my point pretty clear. Of course, I could have said "In my personal opinion, her good offensive moves from range are her low kicks." But if you read my post in think you would get the point I was trying to make.
But that's the evasiveness I was talking about, which is indeed one of her better qualities. Sorry if I didn't make it clear in my first post, I didn't realize it would cause confusion, lol.
"that does not mean her whole game in this deparment is bad." I know, and I was never trying to imply such a thing.
It does not. Just because your opponent is playing a certain character does not mean your characters' tools are taken away. You will always have them, sometimes they're just not as effective as they were against another character/player. For example an Ayane player can still spin away and get a counter hit in on Helena, just like she can against Ein and every other character.
If you catch her in BKO stance, don't throw out shit that won't hit her. If she doesn't have to come in on her own it's because she has a life lead, which means it's your own fault for giving her the lead. When a round starts, she's not on the other side of the stage, she's right there.
It was a general note.
You don't have to believe me and you don't have to agree with me. Trust me, I'm just trying to help you guys out, haha.
The substance of these sentences combined in one statement are one of the funniest things I've read so far from a Helena player.
I don't agree with you but I'm fine with that and I guess you are too.
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Pictured Mind
Well-Known Member
My opinion on her moves was based on facts. For those that don't know, you can see you reach of a move in the move details. I went into training mode to check out which moves have the best reach. Then I looked through them to see which ones would be useful (follow ups, stun, advantage) and it turned out most of her (in my opinion) good moves to use at range are low kicks. Somehow you thought it would be a good reason to bash on a character.
Why would I help you guys find ways to beat a character that I play? Right, because I want to.
But at least my sentences hold a little substance.
Why would I help you guys find ways to beat a character that I play? Right, because I want to.
But at least my sentences hold a little substance.
You've stated a point that I personally disagree with and I gave you some input in why I do so. This does not mean that Jaimy or anyone else who takes a look here needs to agree or disagree with one of us, nor does it put your intention of posting it into question, which is to help others for sure.
I say all this because I am of the opinion that the statement you gave "Helena has a bad range game" is false in the way it was given. I say all this is beause I believe that the way you argue on it is very short-sighted.
Just as you stated here two times, you've created an opinion on things you've checked in the lab. And while no one here said that you are wrong with the things you listed about the move properties in terms of stuns or range, this opinion is still your own because there is no "fact" in how effective these moves turn out for players in a match and how usefull they are.
You justify your post by saying that she has a bad range on certain moves and some don't allow follow-ups or can be throw punished. While she (as we both agree too) has good crushing moves as trade-off for the former, the later refers more to her opportunities on getting in on someone (meaning it refers more to her offensive). And at this point, you literally say that she has to work harder as other characters to get close to her opponent.
While this is not false on it's own, it still comes off as you are underplaying her other abilities. Jann Lee for example also has a very poor approach of getting close to someone if he needs to, yet you do not hear anyone saying that he has a bad range game because he can play it very good in a defensive way. And Helena can do this too.
And if you believe I did post this because I was looking for a reason to bash the character, then you are wrong. I am not around on this forum to bash characters, and even if I would like to do so, I can just jump into the corresponding character forum and post shit on break down guide xy or combo thread wz. The things I'm talking about actually favor Helena as a character because it means that her range game is better as people might get the idea of when they're reading your statement.
We can continue this discussion although I primarly do not want to do so (as you might already could read out of my previous post) because I am convinced that it will lead into nowhere. However, you have not convinced me yet that the statement you gave is one people can rely on, and this might be the same for others around here too. And as I said, I am fine with that.
Pictured Mind
Well-Known Member
@ToKyo PewPew Look, I understand what you mean, I just think you misunderstood what what I was trying to say.
Like you said, when I said "Helena has a bad range game", that's false. I understand that. I thought my point would be clear because I listed moves the character has, that have better range than a lot of other moves (which IS A FACT, as I said before. I formed my opinion after that). You just decided to stick to the first sentence and based your comment on that.
We both know she's an evasive character (which is one of the reasons I like Helena) and we both know she's a good character. I think everyone who has a little experience with her knows that. I just think you made this conversation about something I wasn't even trying to imply in the first place.
I think our arguments all came from misunderstanding a post, so I'm fine with dropping this conversation.
Nah, just a little discussion.
Like you said, when I said "Helena has a bad range game", that's false. I understand that. I thought my point would be clear because I listed moves the character has, that have better range than a lot of other moves (which IS A FACT, as I said before. I formed my opinion after that). You just decided to stick to the first sentence and based your comment on that.
We both know she's an evasive character (which is one of the reasons I like Helena) and we both know she's a good character. I think everyone who has a little experience with her knows that. I just think you made this conversation about something I wasn't even trying to imply in the first place.
I think our arguments all came from misunderstanding a post, so I'm fine with dropping this conversation.
Nah, just a little discussion.
KING JAIMY
Well-Known Member
Thread is now up to date. This thread has grown pretty big in relatively little time. The total amount of tips in the OP is now equal to 44 tips, which is already a lot if you ask me. Keep up the good work everyone!
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KING JAIMY
Well-Known Member
Added some tips of my own against Hayabusa, Honoka and Rig.
Decided to use the general idea of this thread and create an entire character specific thread of my own:
http://www.freestepdodge.com/threads/how-to-fight-against-bass-from-scrubs-to-pros.5697/
I would like to ask those with character knowledge to get together and write up character-specific threads.
While this thread does a great job of simplifying loads of things, after three years, we still don't have as much widespread knowledge of the game and the cast as we should and this makes everyone look bad and play bad or taking significantly longer to advance than needed.
If more people put some more effort, then we can all figure everything out sooner.
http://www.freestepdodge.com/threads/how-to-fight-against-bass-from-scrubs-to-pros.5697/
I would like to ask those with character knowledge to get together and write up character-specific threads.
While this thread does a great job of simplifying loads of things, after three years, we still don't have as much widespread knowledge of the game and the cast as we should and this makes everyone look bad and play bad or taking significantly longer to advance than needed.
If more people put some more effort, then we can all figure everything out sooner.
KING JAIMY
Well-Known Member
I skimmed through the thread you made and it was really useful, man. Good job!
This thread is indeed simple in the sense that it just gives general tips about some character-specific weaknesses. It just gives some 'rules of thumb' which can be quite useful to remember when playing against a certain character. Writing up everything about every character would fit indeed better in the character boards and would not be the purpose of a 'general tips thread'.
Not trying to hijack anything, just giving out some ideas to people, because most of what I see in character boards are heavily scattered information that is not very useful and some are devoid of useful information with a lot of questions and no answers.
We also don't have info on some characters right now like Sarah and Eliot. Maybe with some better organization people can fist collect all the information and then make a shortened general tip for each character to have more compact information.