System What would make LR better than Ultimate?

[Jyakotu]

That's because i've met two players that can play ayane to her true potential. Ayane literally has tools no character deserves and she'll still be fine without them. Nobody plays her as she's suppose to be intended so that's why they don't understand how good she is. People literally only use half of her tools and she's considered a+ tier.

See, how is she "supposed" to be played? I like to get in and get out with Ayane, but even then, people have said that I'm using her wrong. I'm by no means the BEST Ayane player, but I am good enough to where I understand basic BnBs and can usually win.

 

[Heikou]

See, how is she "supposed" to be played? I like to get in and get out with Ayane, but even then, people have said that I'm using her wrong. I'm by no means the BEST Ayane player, but I am good enough to where I understand basic BnBs and can usually win.

You can usually win without playing a character correctly depending on who you're playing against. I can hop on ranked and get a win streak going just trashing players with Akira, all the while spamming 3P+K and not using a single guard break. They seriously just run into his 466P+K and 2_46P as well.
If you're curious as to how she's supposed to be played, I'm sure Hajin has posted his thoughts on this exact topic more than enough times in the Ayane forum.

 

[J.D.E.]

I just want ayane nerfed, some of ayane's tools are borderline broken

Which moves? How is she broken?

@Jyakotu Ayane is just fine. What do you think needs to be buffed?

I'm curious to know from both of you.

 

[Intelligent Alpha]

You can usually win without playing a character correctly depending on who you're playing against. I can hop on ranked and get a win streak going just trashing players with Akira, all the while spamming 3P+K and not using a single guard break. They seriously just run into his 466P+K and 2_46P as well.
If you're curious as to how she's supposed to be played, I'm sure Hajin has posted his thoughts on this exact topic more than enough times in the Ayane forum.

I really don't like the "Character is supposed to be played this way" garbage though and this is a fair point! Sometimes playing a character the "proper" way doesn't always work. Sure, combofuck with Alpha, but lest you forget she can win with just two throws. too and given how linear her strings are (regardless of how well you mix the fuck up) - that's the damn problem. It's hilarious to say, risks don't exist when you play a risky character - especially in a risky manner.

So, what's exactly is correct and incorrect? Hard to tell since this game is low risk/high reward which is why people get mad at other players who opt for the inverse scale. IOW, people who moan about those who play it safe (as this means, they don't mind either reward) as opposed to those who are reckless because of the "perceived" huge reward - there's no risk!

Again, too much emphasis is put on how someone should play. You're actually limiting the many options for every character when you say this! No one is pure anything nor should this ever be the case!

 

[Zeo]

Already is.

The step changes. Gen change, stage additions, male costumes and tag changes admittedly are. The rest need to happen.

 

[Brute]

The step changes. Gen change, stage additions, male costumes and tag changes admittedly are. The rest need to happen.

Netcode is the only one you could argue is a pretty universal suggestion, as no one who uses it outside Japan seems content with it.

The rest were your own personal and biased opinions.

Simply saying "my opinions are fact and need to happen" does not make them so.

 

[crapoZK]

She's only A tier, whereas Christie is in her own tier. She needs buffs, obviously.

Let's not talk about buffing Ayane, thanks. Keep her the same.

I really don't like the "Character is supposed to be played this way" garbage though and this is a fair point! Sometimes playing a character the "proper" way doesn't always work.

It is "garbage", yes, but there are limits to that statement. You can't rush-down with Kokoro or Eliot, play Strike-Only Bass (Though I've seen that crap) and just see how far trying to play Turtle Zack will get you, lol. They still have to be played by their archetypes. You can change it up a bit, or "Kick it up a notch" but, there really is a meta in this game for characters.

 

[Zeo]

Netcode is the only one you could argue is a pretty universal suggestion, as no one who uses it outside Japan seems content with it.

The rest were your own personal and biased opinions.

Simply saying "my opinions are fact and need to happen" does not make them so.

Just throwing this out there, You don't think the sexuality needs to be toned down, wake up kicks need neutering or Christie needs a weight class fitting to her speed tier? I'm never one for considering my own opinions to be fact, but as far as those particular things go, they're high priority and tied to some of the most discussed issues people have concerning this game.

 

[Brute]

Ayane isn't A tier and Christie isn't in her own tier, either.

But everyone already knows that, so I don't know why I'm wasting my time broadcasting this obvious shit.

Just throwing this out there, You don't think the sexuality needs to be toned down, wake up kicks need neutering or Christie needs a weight class fitting to her speed tier? I'm never one for considering my own opinions to be fact, but as far as those particular things go, they're high priority and tied to some of the most discussed issues people have concerning this game.

I do think so, yes. But those are all my own personal, biased opinions, as well.

 

[Yurlungur]

Which moves? How is she broken?

@Jyakotu Ayane is just fine. What do you think needs to be buffed?

I'm curious to know from both of you.

4p, and the bt round house, her zoning is safe which i don't believe she deserves because she also has a strong rushdown

 

[Zeo]

I do think so, yes. But those are all my own personal, biased opinions, as well.

Fair enough.

 

[J.D.E.]

4p, and the bt round house, her zoning is safe which i don't believe she deserves because she also has a strong rushdown

Ayane does not play "rushdown". She has decent speeds with the 10i jab, 13i mid, & then a 12i low, but in no way does her speeds or tools (in general) emphasize rush down. She does have good damage output & have great mobility, however but her rushdown isn't strong to say that. Getting in, she 66KK4 & BT PP6KK4 are noticable. Other than that, she's baiting you with her 1P+K & 33 movement with a rolling throw, kick, or jump.

PP6P3, 6P3, 33 in general is made to evade your highs & mids when you're on the offensive. When she uses these 6P3 enders, she's trying to get you to hit attack buttons so that she can score a counter hit, most likely launching afterwards. If not, then she's grabbing you; this is on you to pick up on the scheme & then strike when she tries to grab. Ayane is a very defensive character. She's a character who takes advantage of opponents' mistakes, besides zoning. She's made to do that as well as use tools to play keep away (3H+K > 8P, P>BT8P, P4P, etc). It's a part of her general strategy to bait you out.

4P is supposed to crush. It's also unsafe on block. It possess crush properties to crush jabs. If you're throwing out a high & if she gets a reads, then it's because she's making a good read on you. BT 4H+K is unsafe on block. You can punish it. You have to be careful getting in on her or you'll run into it. The stuff that you're wanting nerfed are a part of her general gameplan overall.

She's a character that is just fine, just that she forces you to make good reads both with & against her. Overall, she's making you play smart.

 

[crapoZK]

She's a character that is just fine, just that she forces you to make good reads both with & against her. Overall, she's making you play smart.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

I want to point something out in referencing Ayane;

66KK4 is not her only way for approach, it is the most obvious and predictable. She has a lot of ways to approach that doesn't warrant 66KK4 as a necessity.

Ayane can easily close distance with 1P+K K which is -5 and becomes even safer when blocked at several different distances, up to -1. She can approach with BT3K as well, and just with her Integrated Movement in general. 3H+K can be used to cover neutral distances as well as approach safely (of course you can keep out with it).

5K and 3P can be used on approach as well as keepout, so can BT4H+K, BT2P and BT6K.

This is minor example of what you can optimize as multi-purpose tools for her. 66KK4 definitely isn't the best approach, you are playing the character too predictably if it's always your go to tool for such a concept.

To people saying Ayane needs buffs, no she does not. This character is strong, I assure you. Keep improving and get better at the game, please.

 

[Brute]

Ayane does not play "rushdown"

Unrelated to Ayane, but I've heard someone say that about literally every single character in the roster. Every character has glaring weaknesses and no 7-3 advantages, every character is super-difficult to master, every character is not a rushdown character, every character is super-unsafe, and every character "has to commit" and has bad strings.

It's like a comedy routine where people systematically make sure to include all of these points any time they are allowed to discuss a character they play.

 

[Yurlungur]

4P is supposed to crush. It's also unsafe on block. It possess crush properties to crush jabs. If you're throwing out a high & if she gets a reads, then it's because she's making a good read on you. BT 4H+K is unsafe on block. You can punish it. You have to be careful getting in on her or you'll run into it. The stuff that you're wanting nerfed are a part of her general gameplan overall.

4p crushes mids, i'd have 4p crush helena's 3p which it was "suppose too". 4p also has follows up which i'm sorry i don't want my only option to be low jab and if i'm lucky get +1. If this move was intended to be a high crush then let it be a high crush but honestly dodging mids and have follow up options is too much. If it's intended to be a dragon punch like move where it has avoided my lows/mids/highs then take out the follow ups.

BT 4H+K is not throw punishable since she sways away during the movement so i'm unaware of how you're suppose to punish this move. I've even failed after doing stuff like helena's 3p, rachel's 4k and christie's 6p.

Ayane does not play "rushdown". She has decent speeds with the 10i jab, 13i mid, & then a 12i low, but in no way does her speeds or tools (in general) emphasize rush down. She does have good damage output & have great mobility, however but her rushdown isn't strong to say that. Getting in, she 66KK4 & BT PP6KK4 are noticable. Other than that, she's baiting you with her 1P+K & 33 movement with a rolling throw, kick, or jump.

The point is ayane can play rushdown and ayane does have very stupid mixups which i've dealt with and would rather deal with helena mixing me up. Ayane's twirl kicks into the low sweep/mid launch or you cancel that into a safer move. Which is just an example. Also i've seen her have better entrances then that. I'll find out more mix ups but that's just a rather aggravating example.

PP6P3, 6P3, 33 in general is made to evade your highs & mids when you're on the offensive. When she uses these 6P3 enders, she's trying to get you to hit attack buttons so that she can score a counter hit, most likely launching afterwards. If not, then she's grabbing you; this is on you to pick up on the scheme & then strike when she tries to grab. Ayane is a very defensive character. She's a character who takes advantage of opponents' mistakes, besides zoning. She's made to do that as well as use tools to play keep away (3H+K > 8P, P>BT8P, P4P, etc). It's a part of her general strategy to bait you out..

I don't mind if she simply is played as a zoning character but have tools to basically do the mix up above and basically have one of the best zoning games in doa is too much. Make her have one or the other.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

Nothing you've stated implicates that Ayane can rush down, @Yurlungur. She cannot do that, she will lose against people that know the data if she does.

She can approach, play offensively and defensively, but she cannot play an all out aggro-style successfully.

What I'm reading is that you're just having a difficult time with the match up and it's probably because of @Force_of_Nature and his shenanigans (in a good way).

A character capable of good keepout, space control and possessing mix up isn't too much, most of the cast are able to do that. Some are better at it than others (Ayane, Momiji, Kokoro, Eliot, Lisa, Jann Lee, Nyo, Hayate) while others are just strong at one or certain other apsects.

 

[Force_of_Nature]

That's because i've met two players that can play ayane to her true potential. Ayane literally has tools no character deserves and she'll still be fine without them. Nobody plays her as she's suppose to be intended so that's why they don't understand how good she is. People literally only use half of her tools and she's considered a+ tier.

I just want ayane nerfed, some of ayane's tools are borderline broken

Lol, Dude no. Just no.

If Ayane was so "borderline broken", she would be dominating more tournaments offline, which she isn't exactly doing. She does take a tremendous amount of skill to play properly I admit, but every single tool she has is part of her overall gameplay and are perfectly fair. The Ayane MU is a difficult one because she simply forces you to fight smart compared to most other characters. IMHO, Ayane's probably one of the better overall balanced characters in terms of completeness. She requires no nerfs or buffs. She's fine as is and rewards players that properly dedicate to her. She's no win button.

My only recommendation really would be to tweak some things like the corner orientation (so I stop getting the i18 7K, when I want the i11 BT7K as a juggle ender in corners).

Lol @HajinShinobi. C'mon I'm not all shenanigans xD.

 

[Brute]

Every character has glaring weaknesses and no 7-3 advantages, every character is super-difficult to master

 

[Force_of_Nature]

But Ayane does have no 7-3 advantages and is "super-difficult" to master .