Yes or No to Patch?

[Haipa Sonikku]

1. The arcade scene is dead. Even if it wasn't, putting DoA in the arcades wouldn't fix anything. The Japanese hated DoA3 and liked DoA4 and wanted DoA5 to be more like DoA4. They will always get their way because it is a Japanese developed game.

2. DoA3 was the best competitive version of DoA to ever release. So no, it didn't start going downhill with DoA3. It started going downhill with DoA4 where they removed every single mechanic in the game aside from the basics and added a ridiculous stun system and made everything and the kitchen sink cause a stun while removing ways to avoid the hold.

DoA will always be dead on arrival with every version until TN pulls their head out of their ass and listen to the correct people.

Dead where? In the Western market where historically, competitively it mostly hasn't proven to be equally competitive in the past 20 years since the birth of 3D fighting games? C'mon. If Arc System Works, Sega, or Namco Bandai listened to that foolishness, then we'd all be trouble. When I talk about fighting games you best believe that I'm talking about the one territory that has and will always matter by far the most, the motherland, JPN. Last time I checked, the Arcade platform is still very viable there. The Arcade is to the home theater as the Consumer is to the home video market. Soul Calibur II for example went through 4 Arcade revisions (updates to new players today) before it's Consumer release. Unlike Consumer players, Arcade competitive players have a true sense of urgency to win as simply if you lose, then you need get off the machine and get some more money to run it back. And nobody likes to leave broke. This was the exact reasoning behind Evo in the first place. To retain that Arcade culture, where if you lose, then you're out, and then wait your turn until you've "run out of money" (eliminated).

Tecmo left the Arcade platform (as ironically Namco somewhat with Soulcalibur after II) because it couldn't compete with Sega's Virtua Fighter or Namco's Tekken on the numbers. So they started fresh over on Xbox and while it has proven to be successful (with a thank you letter by the name of Dead or Alive Ultimate) via greater Casual ratio participation, the Competitive ratio participation plummeted as a consequence. Its a new era of fighting games and Dead or Alive has continued to remain relevant and I would very like for DOA to return to the Arcade so that the market with the best 3D players historically, JPN and Korea would have much better participation competitively in addition to the Western market. This is where Tekken continues to excel.

I wouldn't say blankly that the Japanese like doa4 over 5 in the context of a hypothetical arcade release. The arcade players in Japan are a different breed and would have their own perspective.
It would make sense just to build their base and their credibility to do a Jpn only arcade version but who knows if they have a distro channel for that anymore. Maybe a Sega collab would work

Exactly. My thing is, now they could learn from this and release it on Sega's Ringwide or even a new next generation Sega Arcade platform or even create their own platform based off, say the Nvidia GTX 690.

 

[Raansu]

Hate to break it to you man, but I lived in Japan for two years. Unless you lived in very specific regions, the arcade scene wasn't all that hot and even the popular spots are filled more with card games, horse racing sims and claw machines. With the exception of the Sega plaza, most arcades have fighting games in the corner and only have 2-4 of them and they are usually empty.

 

[Haipa Sonikku]

Hate to break it to you man, but I lived in Japan for two years. Unless you lived in very specific regions, the arcade scene wasn't all that hot and even the popular spots are filled more with card games, horse racing sims and claw machines. With the exception of the Sega plaza, most arcades have fighting games in the corner and only have 2-4 of them and they are usually empty.

Look at the level of character usage and play before (NA release of Super Street Fighter IV) and after (JPN release of Super Street Fighter IV Arcade Edition) and yeah I'm talking about them "specific regions" i.e. Tokyo. I'm very aware of the state of the Arcade as Namco at one time released a statement about the Wii being responsible for the market overall decline there. However It's simple really. Competitive players in JPN mostly play in the Arcade. Competitive players in the Western market play on Consumer platforms. Look out for both. Unless of course you want to see the same three character being played in Grand Finals here. Trust me, if this game was to be released in the Arcade and JPN and Korea get down on it, you know it.

Don't want to get too off topic but in regards to the patch, I'm still looking at NicoNico for some results of that.

 

[Raansu]

Look at the level of character usage and play before (NA release of Super Street Fighter IV) and after (JPN release of Super Street Fighter IV Arcade Edition) and yeah I'm talking about them "specific regions" i.e. Tokyo. I'm very aware of the state of the Arcade as Namco at one time released a statement about the Wii being responsible for the market overall decline there. However It's simple really. Competitive players in JPN mostly play in the Arcade. Competitive players in the Western market play on Consumer platforms. Look out for both. Unless of course you want to see the same three character being played in Grand Finals here. Trust me, if this game was to be released in the Arcade and JPN and Korea get down on it, you know it.

Don't want to get too off topic but in regards to the patch, I'm still looking at NicoNico for some results of that.

I'm sorry, but this isn't the 90's anymore. With social media and the ease of updating games through patches, the arcade scene just doesn't mean anything anymore. Putting DoA in the arcades would change nothing.

 

[Doug Nguyen]

Since Japananese players loved doa4. Wouldn't they have hated doa3.1 then?

 

[grap3fruitman]

Since Japananese players loved doa4. Wouldn't they have hated doa3.1 then?

Ummm...

The Japanese hated DoA3 and liked DoA4 and wanted DoA5 to be more like DoA4. They will always get their way because it is a Japanese developed game.

I asked Shimbori in person why DoA4 was changed so dramatically from the early builds we saw of DoA4 (that played MUCH closer to 3.1) to the launch of DoA4 and his exact response was that the Japanese did not like DoA3. So no, we don't have to wonder anything.

It is already split: Japanese - DOA4 lovers, Westerners - DOA 3.1 lovers

 

[tnzk]

I asked Shimbori in person why DoA4 was changed so dramatically from the early builds we saw of DoA4 (that played MUCH closer to 3.1) to the launch of DoA4 and his exact response was that the Japanese did not like DoA3. So no, we don't have to wonder anything.

I'll reiterate: one has to wonder who the hell the Japanese fanbase were to be playing a 360 exclusive franchise. I can see a perfectly fine bunch of people on these forums that could help influence the franchise for the better, but instead, some weirdos who apparently bought Xboxes in Japan were chosen as advisors to the game.

Suppose I'm beating a dead horse with this joke, but I'm not sure trusting Japanese people who bought Xbox exclusives was necessarily a good thing for Team Ninja.

 

[Haipa Sonikku]

I'm sorry, but this isn't the 90's anymore. With social media and the ease of updating games through patches, the arcade scene just doesn't mean anything anymore. Putting DoA in the arcades would change nothing.

Get that ignorant American exceptionalism garbage out of here and learn to read. My "friend". These games come from JPN, not America. Yeah and while at it I stated what has occurred. This decade. What did I said about where most of JPN's competitive scene lies. -

However It's simple really. Competitive players in JPN mostly play in the Arcade.

You talk as if America is actually equal with JPN in DOA5 and 3D in general. With few exceptions, America has and continues to be mad garbage at 3D fighting games i.e. poor movement, fundamentals, sidestepping, overall creativity, forward strategy thinking and execution (dropping combos). The creation of the Hit Box "joystick" perfect exemplifies this. That's why America can't play and win with Mishimas' (Tekken), Akiras' (Virtua Fighter), and Kasumis' (Dead or Alive) at tournaments here. The game's been out for over 4 months now and still in GFs at tournaments people aren't executing optimized punishes, sidestepping, etc and use the conventions of DOA5. Instead they're still trying to play the game the way they want to play it instead of the way it's supposed to be played.

Releasing an Arcade version to markets (JPN and Korea) that actually know how to play 3D properly and to true potential will greatly improve the overall health of the game. No one is even remotely close to Mochi-A's level of play (keep in mind that's just one guy and there are potentially a lot more like him out there) and I'd rather see a lot more of that than of some dude who thinks that doing the same stuff will get him by the entire competitive lifespan of 5 yet get blowns up by some kid at Season's Beatings.

Look at these again -
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLmBdlHcHH7pYh-QNjgs6wQPFEL7nL8usE

 

[Tokkosho]

and so it begins.

 

[Raansu]

Get that ignorant American exceptionalism garbage out of here and learn to read. My "friend". These games come from JPN, not America. Yeah and while at it I stated what has occurred. This decade. What did I said about where most of JPN's competitive scene lies. -



You talk as if America is actually equal with JPN in DOA5 and 3D in general. With few exceptions, America has and continues to be mad garbage at 3D fighting games i.e. poor movement, fundamentals, sidestepping, overall creativity, forward strategy thinking and execution (dropping combos). The creation of the Hit Box "joystick" perfect exemplifies this. That's why America can't play and win with Mishimas' (Tekken), Akiras' (Virtua Fighter), and Kasumis' (Dead or Alive) at tournaments here. The game's been out for over 4 months now and still in GFs at tournaments people aren't executing optimized punishes, sidestepping, etc and use the conventions of DOA5. Instead they're still trying to play the game the way they want to play it instead of the way it's supposed to be played.

Releasing an Arcade version to markets (JPN and Korea) that actually know how to play 3D properly and to true potential will greatly improve the overall health of the game. No one is even remotely close to Mochi-A's level of play (keep in mind that's just one guy and there are potentially a lot more like him out there) and I'd rather see a lot more of that than of some dude who thinks that doing the same stuff will get him by the entire competitive lifespan of 5 yet get blowns up by some kid at Season's Beatings.

Look at these again -
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLmBdlHcHH7pYh-QNjgs6wQPFEL7nL8usE

Your ignorance is amazing.

For the record, the top American DoA players are all better than the top Japanese DoA players. On that note, I think I'm going to put you on ignore now. Reading that much ignorance just gives me a headache.

 

[tnzk]

Look at these again -
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLmBdlHcHH7pYh-QNjgs6wQPFEL7nL8usE

I've never seen that before, partly because I didn't know many Japanese people played DoA. That said, the style vs. American style is like night and day. It looks a lot like the whole Japanese vs. American styles of Street Fighter.

I do agree with Raansu that American players are probably better, but that's because they supported the Xbox platform for over ten years. It'll be interesting to see if Japan picks it up and runs with it though.

 

[Raansu]

I've never seen that before, partly because I didn't know many Japanese people played DoA. That said, the style vs. American style is like night and day. It looks a lot like the whole Japanese vs. American styles of Street Fighter.

Shimbori says as well that our playstyles are vastly different. Americans like having frame advantage and guaranteed tools while the Japanese DoA players like to be defensive and like being able to hold out of any situation which is blatantly obvious with the balance test videos TN put out where they just spam holds, don't really throw punish and just do a lot of poking/random attacks.

 

[ScattereDreams]

Don't want to get too off topic but in regards to the patch, I'm still looking at NicoNico for some results of that.

Some Japanese are streaming/recording 1.03 gameplay? Link me. It may alter how I feel about the overall patch.

 

[Gill Hustle]

Your ignorance is amazing.

For the record, the top American DoA players are all better than the top Japanese DoA players.

Hmm, anyone remember this?:

 

[tnzk]

Shimbori says as well that our playstyles are vastly different. Americans like having frame advantage and guaranteed tools while the Japanese DoA players like to be defensive and like being able to hold out of any situation which is blatantly obvious with the balance test videos TN put out where they just spam holds, don't really throw punish and just do a lot of poking/random attacks.

I'm not knowledgable enough to make such a call, but what I just saw from that playlist Haipa Sonniku provided was the clinical precision that Japanese players always exhibit in all fighting games, and that does require a fair bit of knowledge about frame data in other games, so I don't see why it doesn't apply for DoA5. If Shimbori was speaking of those lame Japanese players, they certainly weren't showing the love for holds anymore than we've been (except for that one hold-happy Sarah player). They only seemed to be holding when they were stunned and had no other option.... which is a fault we Western players are also aware of.

It's a pretty cool playlist though. Some are actually FSDing and side-stepping!

 

[Marcio]

@Haipa Sonikku
Wow! Did you really just say that Japanese people know how to play 3D Fighting games better than NA and European players?
That's pathetic!
I am a VERY experienced Soul Calibur player and I can tell you how the Japanese influence completely destroyed my favourite Fighting Game!
At Christmas 2010 Daishi Odashima(Chief developer of Project Soul) announced SC5. Between the announcement and the release at January 2012(13 months were definitely not enough to develop the game) Daishi at least pretended to listen to the Western community.
He did all his Twitter tweets in Japanese and English and we all were full of hope because he called himself a former competitive SC gamer.
BUT after the release he only listened to the Japanese community.
He only visited Japanese tournaments. (He didn't care about EVO 2012 or the WGC in Cannes, France) and all his Twitter messages were only written in Japanese.
The result was a "Balancing Patch" that completely destroyed the game!(Not to mention the flaws this game had pre-patch)
They nerfed characters who were Low Tier to begin with.(Raphael, Siegfried), they completely nerfed Leixia to death(even Kayane stopped playing her) and they insanely buffed a stupid character called Viola(Now Viola is banned at tournaments.)
80% of the community stopped playing this game and 2013 is the first time for a long period of time that SC is not played at the EVO.
That's the result of too much influence of the Japanese community!
Maybe Japanese dudes know how to play some 2D FG's but they definitely have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA how to play 3D Fighting Games!!!

 

[Raansu]

I'd say the only 3D fighting game the Japanese are king at is VF5, and personally I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that VF5 is nowhere near as big in America as it is in Japan.

 

[Haipa Sonikku]

On that note, I think I'm going to put you on ignore now.

That's what happens when you're trying to challenge a master teacher. It ain't gonna work. Go back home and do your homework again boy. It's very clear you don't have the experience or know shit about fighting games at all. DOA was barely competitive back than (95/5) until the release of 5. The game first of all was by design created to sell as Tecmo was in trouble hence the name Dead or Alive. The game JUST got sidestepping, a standard 3D convention that was introduced in Battle Arena Toshinden. In 1995.

Some Japanese are streaming/recording 1.03 gameplay? Link me. It may alter how I feel about the overall patch.

I'll see what I can find for you as they're all over the place i.e Ustream.

(except for that one hold-happy Sarah player).

It's a pretty cool playlist though. Some are actually FSDing and side-stepping!

Glad you liked it. That "one hold-happy Sarah player" is Mochi-A (Mochi-Akira) or Yoshikawa Masato one of the best players today in Virtua Fighter and winner of that Dead or Alive 5 National Tournament in JPN back in December. What I'm saying is that I would like to see a lot more that level of play from JPN and Korea and a future Arcade release will ensure that.

 

[Haipa Sonikku]

@Haipa Sonikku
Wow! Did you really just say that Japanse people know how to play 3D Fighting games better than NA and European players?

I never made any mention of EU but that's interesting though. I know that EU is very good at Soulcalibur yet if so good then show me the SBO results of ever taking home a Championship? Oh wait, that never happened.

I am a VERY experienced Soul Calibur player

Oh that right? You could have at least tried to have some shred of credibility by mentioning Soul Calibur II, not the watered down, washed up attempts that were released after. Soulcalibur V was set for failure anyways as it was a highly rushed product as on record, i.e. 3/4 of the story was omitted from Story Mode for one.

Maybe Japanese dudes know how to play some 2D FG's but they definitely have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA how to play 3D Fighting Games!!!

C'MOOON SON! When did you start playing fighting games? So NA/EU was all this time runnin JPN/KOR shit in 3D fighting games for the past 20 years? That statement is bullshit and you fuckin know it.

I'd say the only 3D fighting game the Japanese are king at is VF5, and personally I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that VF5 is nowhere near as big in America as it is in Japan.

I've been around for quite some time now and that right there has to be one of the dumbest shit I've ever read In My Lifetime. So America has overall always had better fundamentals in fighting games than Japan?! Wow. Must be tough.

 

[grap3fruitman]

Hmm, anyone remember this?

I drank extra hard to push that out of my head. Time to hit the bottle again...

That's what happens when you're trying to challenge a master teacher. It ain't gonna work. Go back home and do your homework again boy. It's very clear you don't have the experience or know shit about fighting games at all. DOA was barely competitive back than (95/5) until the release of 5. The game first of all was by design created to sell as Tecmo was in trouble hence the name Dead or Alive. The game JUST got sidestepping, a standard 3D convention that was introduced in Battle Arena Toshinden. In 1995.

You're trolling, right?