Lyn
Member
Which are?
Rachel nerfs
- Thread starter vINv
- Start date
Which are?
Lyn
Member
I'm having a hard time seeing how any of that actually adds credibility to what you're saying.
None of what you've said bring her probability of connecting anything any higher than it is when the match first starts.(Unless you're absolutely terrified of her.)
DR2K
Well-Known Member
She completely omits an integral aspect of the wake up game for free. This is bad design 101. It's brain dead, rewards failure to an already solid character. She'll still be a threat with her +15 stomp even if a whiffed stomp is nerfed to negative frames. Because you need to tech to avoid it.
Itz King Beebop
Active Member
Could you explain to me what other "good" things Rachel has at her disposal other than force tech and high damage counter grabs, because after playing her for a week or so... she doesn't have too much going for her. Only 65 moves, no spacing options, terrible defensive options vs faster mid-based characters (Hitomi, Christie...), and then you tack on her lacking mix up options, you'd have to be completely lost not to question how a slow, aggressive, grapple character like Rachel is supposed to start an offense... maybe all of my opponents will throw out 15i mids, loads of highs, and always counter on stun so I can get a free combo grab or my +10i low OH grab all day. Before TN even thinks of giving Rachel a nerf, they should at least bulk up her move list a little (maybe give her more lows than 2H+K) We are complaining about a character that isn't even that good at what she's supposed to be relying upon to win matches... what are we talking about nerfing her for, when all you have to do to beat her is either rush her down or space her out?Brute said:
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You can add to that an OH reset that can be done from her fastest jab string.
The weaknesses you speak of are shared by virtually all other heavyweights/grapplers and they can survive without the FT.
Itz King Beebop
Active Member
That's if they even respect whatever imaginary frame advantage that you're trying to get them to remain blocking on anyway. Her jab strings don't work at all against people that try to play on reaction because from double jabs she's got a low, a high, and a grab (all good reasons to duck, which is something people do to Rachel a lot of the time anyway)
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lol that's their fault.
So you're saying you have mix-ups from your PP that can hit at all 3 hit levels (mid causes a sitdown when trying to evade) and an OH reset throw and there's no reason to block?
Hayabusa, who's really only a pseudo-grappler, gets PPPP, PKK, PPPK(4), PP4PP, PP4P6P, PP4P2P, PP4PK, PP6P(4), PP2K(4), PPKKK, & PPKKP. And guess what? They all hit at high/mid and leave him at negative frames when blocked. Except the PP4P2P and PP2K, which are lows with miserable damage that are both negative frames on NH.
That, my friend, is having shit mix-ups. Every single option he has from PP is beat with a standing block. Every single one. Rachel is the opposite. Feel blessed.
I'm not sure what your point here is. That people have stopped playing the other grapplers 'cause they don't have FTs? Grapplers have never been that common (especially Bass) because they require patience and precise reads. That's nothing new. Some of them may be trying out the new characters like Leon or Rachel. Why not? Just because people don't pick a character a lot doesn't mean they suck.
Itz King Beebop
Active Member
To be completely honest, there are reasons to nerf any character (except Zack or Tina,) and maybe I'm just kind of salty because I'm trying to main her and people are already shouting for nerfs at, what is this, week 3-4 of the game being out. IMO She is probably the grapple character with the highest learning curve because she requires full knowledge of the game to be used properly (Hi Counter Holds, Hold Punishing, General Punishing, these are the places where her damage comes from, and then the fact that she can't survive without offense makes things even more difficult seeing that she has no come-in tools) I have already stated before that I stand by the nerf taking away the stomp after 4T, but my thoughts on her whiffed stomp being safe... I'm still sort of neutral +1i to -2i isn't something Rachel players should rely on to keep pressure going (mainly cause she has nothing faster than 11i anyway), so is the stomp whiff being safe that much of a definite factor of how Rachel players get wins?
I'm kind of down for Rachel to get some more moves (like a low that's actually scary when it hits, and maybe a 12i mid, or a low crush because her low OH can be unreliable at times) Anyone down for that, or any ideas? I might start another thread for possible extensions to Rachel's move list...
I'm kind of down for Rachel to get some more moves (like a low that's actually scary when it hits, and maybe a 12i mid, or a low crush because her low OH can be unreliable at times) Anyone down for that, or any ideas? I might start another thread for possible extensions to Rachel's move list...
...What? You can learn Rachel in 20 minutes. She's has a near nonexistent learning curve, 'cause once you're in, you don't need ANY matchup info.
You are. But we love you for it.
@ItzKing: You're not really raising any points now other than "I don't want Rachel nerfed becuase I main her and like easy mode and for some reason I don't like to acknowledge Rachel's various other strengths in order to enforce my idea that Rachel is a one-trick pony and 100% stomp force-tech," which is just weird.
For the record, I acknowledge that Rachel is hella strong, but I still don't want her nerfed. I want her to stay that strong so Team Ninja know just how much they need to buff the other characters for the game to be balanced.
Lyn
Member
That's if anyone lets you in. Rachel doesn't really have any good pokes let alone range, so out spacing her should be top priority but not enough to where you have to micromanage; because you'll just end messing yourself up.
Why is this even a thread? The game is like barely 3 weeks old and people are screaming nerfs. Just learn the match up and stop deeming it as hopeless.
It's VERY APPARENT that the vortex is what Rachel's advantage is about. Once she launches you, she is going for the vortex or solid damage. If this concept is taken away from Rachel, then at this very moment, she will indeed be a bad character with slow speed (11/13/14) and not-so-good defensive and range tools. The vortex is what works for her and she's only going to get that advantage if she launches you or catches you with 41236T.
Start getting better familiar with what's in her arsenal so you get more adept at seeing these things in actual play. Some things are unseeable, PPT, and that's fine because every character has at least 1-5 things that are unseeable. Mostly everything else just comes from more play experience and lab work.
Stop talking about character buffs and character nerfs that need to happen right now in such a short amount of this game's life span. Start putting in more work and learn how to adapt to something.
That's all players of this generation does now, scream broken or OP because you refuse to actually figure something out. There is nothing broken or OP in this game.
If Rachel is scoring so many counter hits on you from the vortex, then it's your own fault for continuing to mash buttons so much while at disadvantage.
The simplest way of dealing with stuff like this is to block and fuzzy guard throw attempts (you need to pay attention to throw animation to fuzzy in time). Stop forcing yourself to guess so much. This character is hella overplayed and in time, the better players will figure out more viable ways of dealing with this match up for said character.
It's VERY APPARENT that the vortex is what Rachel's advantage is about. Once she launches you, she is going for the vortex or solid damage. If this concept is taken away from Rachel, then at this very moment, she will indeed be a bad character with slow speed (11/13/14) and not-so-good defensive and range tools. The vortex is what works for her and she's only going to get that advantage if she launches you or catches you with 41236T.
Start getting better familiar with what's in her arsenal so you get more adept at seeing these things in actual play. Some things are unseeable, PPT, and that's fine because every character has at least 1-5 things that are unseeable. Mostly everything else just comes from more play experience and lab work.
Stop talking about character buffs and character nerfs that need to happen right now in such a short amount of this game's life span. Start putting in more work and learn how to adapt to something.
That's all players of this generation does now, scream broken or OP because you refuse to actually figure something out. There is nothing broken or OP in this game.
If Rachel is scoring so many counter hits on you from the vortex, then it's your own fault for continuing to mash buttons so much while at disadvantage.
The simplest way of dealing with stuff like this is to block and fuzzy guard throw attempts (you need to pay attention to throw animation to fuzzy in time). Stop forcing yourself to guess so much. This character is hella overplayed and in time, the better players will figure out more viable ways of dealing with this match up for said character.
You can react in 15f+ easily if you really watch for one specific thing. I see people talking about plus frames and it makes me confused. It's not like you're blind until you're in neutral. A move is always that speed. If you can't react to it after a stomp, then you extra can't react to it in a neutral situation. The only difference is that you can't beat something with something of the same time. If Rachel 4Ps, you can't strike and win. If she throws, you can't throw and win. But you can still use the triangle system.
Rachel is very very strong once she gets in, but you CAN deal with it. It's a mixup like any other. Even if you have bad reaction time (I have abysmal reaction time), it's still just a simple guessing game. She's top tier, not broken.
EDIT: That said, Ayane has probably the best matchup against Rachel. :v
Rachel is very very strong once she gets in, but you CAN deal with it. It's a mixup like any other. Even if you have bad reaction time (I have abysmal reaction time), it's still just a simple guessing game. She's top tier, not broken.
EDIT: That said, Ayane has probably the best matchup against Rachel. :v
Rachel is okay to solid in CQC, not very strong. She has solid string mix up (PPT, PP2K, 6P options, 6K, 1P, 1PP, 2P, and 4P options, not including actual launchers) but not that many. What she has works for her but she is very straight forward. Rachel is only strong once the vortex has commensed.
Of course you cannot commit to a strike or throw at disadvantage, because you're at disadvantage, lol. You cannot expect to tech up or be forced up and think your strike is going to beat out the aggressor, that should be common knowledge (and common sense).
Of course you cannot commit to a strike or throw at disadvantage, because you're at disadvantage, lol. You cannot expect to tech up or be forced up and think your strike is going to beat out the aggressor, that should be common knowledge (and common sense).
Not as common as one would think, unfortunately. I've had people get angry that their strikes aren't beating Rachel's strikes after stomp. Meaty is meaty, even if you're Kasumi. Everyone should play some 2D games to learn just how scummy okizeme can get.