vINv
Active Member
disagree most her match ups are 6-4 against she cant space her mix ups are bad only redemming thing is the throw dmg ill continue to play her and lab her my thing was we finally had a high tier grappler and ppl couldnt handle it
Rachel nerfs
- Thread starter vINv
- Start date
Devilreaper
Active Member
Really i wouldn't have cared of she had got nerfed or buffed i would still be making Rachel players look stupid, im ready for anything op or not.. complainers gone complain, get good.
Omegan Eckhart
Well-Known Member
Helena i11/i12/i14
Rachel i11/i13/i14
Don't reference Helena's 3P like she is so much faster just cause she has an i1 frame faster mid punch even though her other pokes are the same speed.
Helena's 6P DOES NOT FT! Don't compare the fact that Rachel could whiff a FT and be left at +11 with the fact that Helena is left at +4 when a move whiff's when it doesn't even cause FT! Compare Helena's 2K from BKO with Rachel's 2K because that move actually FT's and if it whiff's she is left at heavy negative frames.
No, people did NOT complain about Rachel because she has grappler's throw damage. They complained because EVERY CHARACTER in the game lost their guaranteed ways to eliminate wake up kicks whilst being at frame advantage and TN gave Rachel the ability to do it better than any character could even in Vanilla.
Don't tell me about Helena's multiple ways to set up FT's. You don't have any idea about her what so ever. EVERY SINGLE ONE of her FT's works like Rachel's does now. They hit the deck, Helena uses either P+K(P), 214P(P), BKO 2K, BT 4K or BT 66K to FT. If they don't tech she forces them up, if they tech and the attack whiff's she is at heavy negative frames, just like Rachel is now.
So what that Helena has more tracking moves, Rachel does more damage, if a hell of a lot safer, has much better SDS's and has better throws. Rachel has plenty of things that Helena does not, she doesn't need to be as good at everything Helena is to be good, she is good enough doing the things she already excels at.
Don't give me any garbage about Rachel's free cancelling being bad, what happens when she delays a string and you try to beat her out? Oh yeah she fucking launches your ass into a 50/50 vortex trap.
I'll tell you now that if you cannot read whether your opponent is going to tech to avoid the stomp after playing one round then you suck and deserve to lose.
I'm done correcting you, I've read enough of your posts on Helena to know that you have no clue about her as a character so don't try to lecture me on how her FT works. The fact that you compare Rachel's 2K to Helena's 6P, a move that DOESN'T cause FT shows you have no idea what you are talking about.
A good rule of thumb for life: If you are uneducated on a certain matter, don't open your mouth about it.
/rant
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vINv
Active Member
im not going to argue over this with u when i already know everything your talking about.... ive practiced enough and been over helenas frames enough to know everything you listed and if you played competivly. you would know having those options left open to you 1frame diff makes a world of differnce. also that stomp was never plus on whiff idk wher ppl get the from ive tested tbat out with friends in multiple setups. and another thing how dare you i practice very hard with helena have for along time recive help from crazy steady and electrified man. talk about what you know. you made valid points. like i said before ill lab and make some setups that arnt stomp based. but based of off hit boxing and review her distance frame data and post some tech for her. but dont post a bunch of crap i already know and fyi 6p (from bukhou does ft less they roll wich i have set ups for ppl who tech roll)
Kokoro is linear. Akira is linear. Rachel isn't linear.
Drake Aldan
Well-Known Member
Go Go Gadget 4P.
4PP nerf makes 4PP2P less effective, but I still score hits with it.
For now. :|
Omegan Eckhart
Well-Known Member
So someone who played Rachel as a main says Rachel's 2K was never + on whiff...
This is why I can't take anything you say seriously. You are trying to lecture me on how my character, of which I play pretty fucking well, plays and you don't even know that Rachel's 2K on whiff was + pre patch... That isn't a trivial error that you've made there, that is you being totally clueless about a character you say you main.
Name dropping Steady and Emann doesn't help you much. They are both very good players, Steady can use almost any character at a high level. I based my opinion of your Helena knowledge on factual statements you've made about her. When you are constantly wrong and ask really dumb questions I will assume that you are relatively clueless.
I am the last person to trash on someone for being ignorant of something, we all have blind spots and there is no shame in that. But when you are telling me I am wrong and have no idea what I am talking about when you keep referencing things that are factually untrue I am going to call you out on it.
Regardless I am done with this conversation, you wanna believe that Rachel is slow cause her mid punch is i13 and not i12 and that she is the worst character in the game now go right ahead. I've offered you facts and if facts are of no interest to you then I got nothing.
Now if you will excuse me I'm off to try to talk some sense into a young earth creationist. Good day.
This is why I can't take anything you say seriously. You are trying to lecture me on how my character, of which I play pretty fucking well, plays and you don't even know that Rachel's 2K on whiff was + pre patch... That isn't a trivial error that you've made there, that is you being totally clueless about a character you say you main.
Name dropping Steady and Emann doesn't help you much. They are both very good players, Steady can use almost any character at a high level. I based my opinion of your Helena knowledge on factual statements you've made about her. When you are constantly wrong and ask really dumb questions I will assume that you are relatively clueless.
I am the last person to trash on someone for being ignorant of something, we all have blind spots and there is no shame in that. But when you are telling me I am wrong and have no idea what I am talking about when you keep referencing things that are factually untrue I am going to call you out on it.
Regardless I am done with this conversation, you wanna believe that Rachel is slow cause her mid punch is i13 and not i12 and that she is the worst character in the game now go right ahead. I've offered you facts and if facts are of no interest to you then I got nothing.
Now if you will excuse me I'm off to try to talk some sense into a young earth creationist. Good day.
vINv
Active Member
Ok.. i thought about it and waited till i got to my computer before i added to this. The notion that a frame speed doesn't affect a match is ignorant. Also it wasn't that Rachel was plus on whiff its that Rachel has a big hit box. I tested this out with friends quit a few times. Hit boxing is something people don't talk about in this game. certain mid hits couldn't reach Rachel after whiffed stomp because of thier small hit box. why use mid's after a whiffed stomp. Obvious answer most scrubs will throw 1 pp out of desperation great online tactic. Offline you could just mix with a simple throw punish if people decided to counter. Back to my point (Rachel) saying that 1 frame doesn't affect anything smh it does when your both counter hit fishing and poking. A 6p that's 13 isn't terrible but the options from it can all b SS'd. Then we examine her other strings 3 ppp all parts of this string are -9 or higher. Only the last part tracks,pp jails. pp 2k can be ssd and jab interrupted. Rachel's pp throw can b counter thrown by neutral throw. her 66k is only 1+ on block with a 20 frame start up. there is not guaranteed follow up against a speed chars (bad match up kas pai chris sara) no low crush (bad match up Hitomi Jackie Leon Rig) Now her Spacing she cant Out space (Brad Ein Ayane Tina Momjji Lisa) I dont know where ppl get the idea rachel is this beastly char she isnt it comes down to how good the player is vs the other player Rachel needs close range with her limted mix ups and her liner strings. And Guard breaks that are negative-1 makes no sense TN:/ The things that rachel has going for her is her stomp if you predict correctly. Her Tracking off of H+K +11 on hit. 2H+K plus 5 on hit. Her air throw, high crush and high dmg with decent throw dmg. Oh and another thing Helena can mid crush and is safe after her whiffs on FT. Rachel Whiffs on a Stomp set up Range from -4 to -20 me and friends tested this yesterday. (RANT)
You're basically complaining that you don't have a win button. Of course enemies always have an answer to your options. This is DOA, baby~ Unless you're being juggled or sitdown/backturn/faint/etc stunned, you always have an option.
Who cares if you can get sidestepped after 6P? Free cancel and do a big throw. PP2K and PPT can be fuzzied, but you can just do a delayed throw after free canceling PP. Or a slow one, even. That's what they get for being clever.
Guard breaks being negative is dumb, though. That's true. If it has to be negative, it shouldn't be a guard break.
Who cares if you can get sidestepped after 6P? Free cancel and do a big throw. PP2K and PPT can be fuzzied, but you can just do a delayed throw after free canceling PP. Or a slow one, even. That's what they get for being clever.
Guard breaks being negative is dumb, though. That's true. If it has to be negative, it shouldn't be a guard break.
Actually, I'm not sure if PP2K/PPT can be fuzzied. PP2K might be too slow and her mid options are terrible. Should just low block. Same situation, though. Doesn't really change my point. Just PP free cancel 4P. Or 214P if you wanna be ballsy.
Lyn
Member
After you consider her best options plus human creativity... Uh yea.. She's pretty straight forward.
Unless you're psychic with her OH, every neutral game is just a test of who has better footing. Too bad "Ayane n Friends" don't really give a shit about neutral game; so Rachel playing the perfect game is now a requirement to hang with the big boys rather than evening the playing field for both sides.
Neutral is what Ayane excels at. She gives a lot of shits about neutral game. Rachel has a LOT of tracking moves. 4P alone is better that what a lot of characters have. 4PP still tracks has a mid followup AND a low followup. And even that low followup tracks. 1P tracks and has a mid launcher followup which means you can mix it up with 41236T every time you land 1P. You can catch people trying to step PP2K with PPK, which tracks, or PPT. Plus, she has good throws, which also beat sidesteps. I don't know how you're playing Rachel if you're not using these moves.
EDIT: You know Kokoro's 6H+K? Imagine if it tracked and stunned deep enough to guarantee a sitdown stun. That's essentially what Rachel has with 1P. It doesn't stun, but they either can't strike, throw, sidestep, or crouch block or crouch hold, OR they can't sidestep, standing block or mid hold or OH. That's every single option covered. Launch into airthrow is guaranteed if they guess wrong, which means it's gonna be 80+ damage easily. Probably around 95 if not more. Fuzzy needs to be slightly delayed (harder to do) 'cause the throw takes a while. All that from a tracking low.
EDIT: You know Kokoro's 6H+K? Imagine if it tracked and stunned deep enough to guarantee a sitdown stun. That's essentially what Rachel has with 1P. It doesn't stun, but they either can't strike, throw, sidestep, or crouch block or crouch hold, OR they can't sidestep, standing block or mid hold or OH. That's every single option covered. Launch into airthrow is guaranteed if they guess wrong, which means it's gonna be 80+ damage easily. Probably around 95 if not more. Fuzzy needs to be slightly delayed (harder to do) 'cause the throw takes a while. All that from a tracking low.
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Drake Aldan
Well-Known Member
You talkin' about a 50/50 on NH? I guess I need to remember that...
Is it totally reactable or is it on the fence...?
It's fairly reactable, to be honest. The vast majority of DOA players don't try to react, though, so whatevs.
EDIT: Realistically, against a good player who knows the setup, they'd watch for instant 1PP and strike if it doesn't come. If you delay 1PP, it's pokable. It's only a nice thing to go for 'cause everyone tries to hold 1PP right now. Other positive is that it launches from the guess, so you skip stun game and still easily do 80+ damage.
EDIT: Realistically, against a good player who knows the setup, they'd watch for instant 1PP and strike if it doesn't come. If you delay 1PP, it's pokable. It's only a nice thing to go for 'cause everyone tries to hold 1PP right now. Other positive is that it launches from the guess, so you skip stun game and still easily do 80+ damage.
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Nobus3r1
Member
IMO it's actually kind of dumb to hold 1PP now. You'd almost certainly get more damage by blocking and punishing.
Itz King Beebop
Active Member
So what you're telling me is that what Rachel gained from the nerfs was this godlike online setup/mixup that is totally reactable and easy to deal with (not to mention it's easy to hold and punish)
vINv
Active Member
true
Lyn
Member
There's almost never a situation where Rachel will be able to throw 1P as a poke unless the opponent is dumb enough to be close enough for it to connect on hit or block.
Despite it's obvious start-up, the delay IS the reason you'll land CH and get about 80 damage from it. That along with pretty much everything else you've said is all situation.
When I said that Ayane doesn't give a shit about neutral game that means, she has the tools to force people to move at her pace whenever she wants. If you don't have any counter-initiatives you're going to die fast. Rachel lacks moves that could whiff and not leave her dangerously close on recovery or in good positioning. You've said her 1P is also God's gift to Rachel which opens people to a stun game.
What you didn't mention was that not only the range and hitbox practically starts from her shoulder; the range itself isn't anything to write home about.
Hell, Tina's 1P CH is basically a better version of Rachel's 1P(18F startup) if you want to state obvious since not only the startup 15F, it guarantees a sitdown stun while Rachel only opens up stun game.
It's literally the same move; just one works better than the other on CH.