Kokoro's Match-up Rating Discussion

[Crext]

Whoa, whoa, whoa. I didn't notice this before. How is Kokoro/Hitomi 6-4? If anything, it's 4-6. Punch parry is a big deal.

EDIT: Also better spacing. I'd say Hitomi's mixups are better than Kokoro's now after 6H+K nerf.

EDIT: What's the reasoning behind Kokoro/Lisa? I have trouble with Lisa, but I think it's just 'cause I don't know the matchup at all.

The Kokoro/Hitomi 6-4 is that Kokoro effectively counters Hitomi's strength to a great degree with her approaches. She is faster with a longer ranged 12 frame mid against Hitomi's 13 frame close quarters moves. Her 66p, 6pp and 2H+kk ruins most of Hitomi's midgame as 1k is taken away and you are basically left with unsafe 236p or the slowish 8k (or 1kk), which can be reacted upon, beaten in speed or at the very least block->punish. You can't parry these approaches, because they are basically instant in your face moves, and it forces you to block approach a lot. Even Hitomi's 66k2k becomes obsolete and with her nerf to 46p (This would have solved everything) Kokoro's 66p will be a counterhit so many times that you'd stop doing it at some point. Even Hitomi's semi-whiffing 6p becomes outpoked, and Hitomi's sidestep punch is really slow and a forward moving Kokoro with 66p or 6pp would always track it. All in all Hitomi would get blocked during midgame into Kokoro's close combat retaliation, while Kokoro will get a lot of counterhit initials or force you to do obvious blocking into throws or simple forward dash into string scenarios.

Hitomi may have superior spacing against almost every other character on the board, but not Kokoro. Better in general yes, but as a matchup, no.
When it comes to the scenarios where you manage to read the midgame, or get lucky and block a 66p if she gets too close when initiating it, THEN you do have an advantage. When Hitomi get ahead in frames it is very difficult to stop her, but Kokoro has much the same playstyle in this department, and Kokoro would get ahead more often because she wins the space game. Her natural rushdown style works directly against Hitomi's "keep out"- or "I'll get you when you dive into me"-moves. Hitomi's punchparry is just good in theory at this point, where you basically must make an initial block in order to make the read, and if you start making punchparry a reaction to movement it is only a matter of time before you are in a world of pain.

Edit: Tenryuga beat me to the punch by 0.05 sec, just like Kokoro.

Edit2: When it comes to Lisa I'd put it to 5, with potential for 4 by all means, as I only know it from one side. Kinda the same as with the Ein argument that the Lisa's I've met just seem to blow up. It is mainly 66p, 6p, 2h+k and 1p+k or 214p that does the trick. Once you are in there it seems to be a very one sided match-up, and since you got the option to start in there in every fight you seem to get a head start more often than not.

 

[Thanapon Buamongkol]

..., P+K is slower and is a high but leaves her at +1 on block, stuns on NH and launches on CH. I don't understand why Kokoro players neglect her P+K at range. ...

That P+K is good on paper but it is not an effective move, at least to me. I couldn't figure out how to use it properly as her other move is more effective.

 

[U_C_A_F]

I admit that I do not have enough knowledge about Eliot to provide analysis. And I'm not the offline player. What I could only share is what I feel from online fight with Eliot player which could be either accurate or inaccurate. I think Eliot’s low kick which stun on normal hit (not sure if it is 2H+K) is kind of what Kokoro lack (she ever have like 6P+K once but no more stun in 5U). So 5.5-4.5 (Kokoro disfavor) sounds make sense to me, the 6:4 is also OK as a round figure.

Could you and me set up some fight like 5 matches to see how effectiveness of the move for better understanding each other?


PSN: etong23

Its not only 2H+K i was talking about, i was mainly referring to his new buffs of his 2H+K from 3pkp and 6k2kp. in vanilla the low kick in those strings caused no stun on NH and opponents can just stand and block even if hit by the low kick they could block the follow up P launcher. They no longer have that luxury anymore in 5U since now the low kick in those strings grant Eliot a deep stun even on NH that gives him the follow up mid punch launcher unless opponents block the low kick on reaction or hold the mid P launcher. not to mention those strings are heavily delayable, high crush, and from 3p eliot can mixup 3pkp with 3ppp variants keeping opponents guessing on whether he'll go low or not

 

[Tenryuga]

I'm sure this is you at a loss at what ranges to use the move as I get mileage out of it. Its not something to be abused because of the speed but it is a effective move that shouldn't be overlooked.

Also Crext I can see the lisa matchup being a 5 since her 1P was toned down. That high crush causes a lot of problems for kokoro at any ranges. It was 14 frames in vanilla but is 18 now. I think you should face Gruff757 and Akashocka on psn to get a better idea of the matchup because those are some of the better lisas I know.

EDIT: stupid phone didn't quote the person I was replying to in the first paragraph.

 

[Thanapon Buamongkol]

Its not only 2H+K i was talking about, i was mainly referring to his new buffs of his 2H+K from 3pkp and 6k2kp. ...

I know, I have eaten those before. Not sure if it just me who feel that move is one of the scariest in this game besides Helena's.

 

[Crext]

After playing some more with Kokopuffs I've made some significant changes. Feel free to argue. ;-)

 

[Thanapon Buamongkol]

After playing some more with Kokopuffs I've made some significant changes. Feel free to argue. ;-)

I think the following are quite right,

Akira, Ayane, Bass, Christie, Eliot, Hayate, Helena, Jann, Leifang, Kasumi, Mila, Pai, Lisa, Tina


Not sure for the rest.

Except that Rachel - 6 is quite questionable when considering Rachel's nonstop ground game and her 1PP (high crush move then launch) which seems to me that enough to compensate for her speed. So, I feel Rachel – 5.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

Ayane vs Kokoro is 6-4 in Ayane's favor, not 5-5. Genfu vs Kokoro is also 6-4 in Genfu's favor.

If I have to elaborate on both match ups, I surely will.

 

[Thanapon Buamongkol]

Ayane vs Kokoro is 6-4 in Ayane's favor, ....

Just ask if that 6 come mainly from the Ayane's ability to evade (or keep distance) right?

 

[iHajinShinobi]

Ayane does not have problems with Kokoro in CQC or at a distance in this game (nor did she in DOA5 Vanilla).

 

[Crext]

Ayane vs Kokoro is 6-4 in Ayane's favor, not 5-5. Genfu vs Kokoro is also 6-4 in Genfu's favor.

If I have to elaborate on both match ups, I surely will.

I'd love to hear the details. Always good to have for potential later reference.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

Ayane vs Kokoro; http://www.freestepdodge.com/threads/doa5u-ayane-vs-xxxxx.3369/page-2#post-139878

 

[iHajinShinobi]

Genfu (i10/i11/i15) vs Kokoro (i10/i12/i13)

Genfu is very fast at i10 and i11, his low jab is slow but it is neutral (+0) on hit, -4 on block. His K is also fast at i11 and is a high kick. +4 on neutral and -9 on block. A really good tool for stun and for interrupting something (outside of his 6P). His 6P is his i11 mid punch, his 4P is i13 (4P6P is a very good block string and it retracks on side step attempts).

His 3P is also a mid punch, i15 frames, and is considered one of the best hi crushes in the game (for good reason). It's a lift stun on counter hit and in Criticual stun. Not exactly something you can stagger out of at all. As 3PP will just put you in his crumple stun, guaranteeing the rest of his follow ups into either a 3P relaunch for air throw into vortex OR crumple ground stun into 80-100 damage with a close hit.

3P's stun puts you into a lose lose situation. You cannot stagger out of it, because 3PP sits you on your ass, or 4P+K puts you into a faint stun and guarantees a 64P crumple ground stun for damage. You are put into a "must hold" situation if you are caught by Genfu's 3P lift stun.

His 3K is i14 and is a very good mid kick with follow ups. 3KPP ends with a high punch and guard breaks, 3KP6P ends with a mid punch but is throw punishable on block. 3K leads into good block string pressure, and forces you into a must hold situation because it has follow ups he can and will get away with if you don't hold. On hit, 3KPP guarantees him a 6PPP juggle. For 3KP6P on hit, he's guaranteed a 214PP follow up.

His 44P is a very good guard break. Linear and slow, but difficult to side step because it's hard to see when it actually is extended out to side step in time, and it's chargeable. It can be mixed into his block string pressure to break your blocking since you will not expect to see it. And it's extremely good when mixed into his vortex.

Guarantees him multiple follow ups to continue his offensive pressure, air throw into vortex, or just gets him damage.

He has a high AND mid parry. Both guarantee him an 8PP OR a 4P6P for Critical stun into a favorable mix up.

Genfu can shutdown a lot of Kokoro's offense. She has a sabaki and a mid punch sabaki. Her original sabaki is barely viable against him because his K is really good, and sabakis lose to throws. Her mid punch sabaki is throw punishable on block, and it's timing is far to strict to keep Genfu's 6P in check. Her lows lose to his 6P and his 4P. His 4P6P will counter hit her side step attempts for sure.

His 3P crushes her jab and high pressure too well. His jab AND his 6P counter hits her Heichu option selects clean outside of stun.

At range, she has more to fend him off than he does against her. But after getting so comfortable playing with Genfu, he does not have problems inching his way in on characters, especially because his 66P has very good hit priority and is only -5. His 214PP is also really good to step in with, stuns on neutral, and is only -4 on block with push back. All it really takes is good patience to get in with Genfu (Sweet Revenge will tell you the same thing and his Genfu is much better than mine). Being an Ayane main, she requires me to play patiently anyway. I carried that over to Genfu.

Kokoro can definitely fight Genfu, it's a matter of breaking his strong offense AND defensive game to keep him from doing so much. Because if he stuns you or throws you with 214H+P or 236H+P, things get shaken in his favor.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

Hitomi may have superior spacing against almost every other character on the board...

Umm, no, Hitomi's spacing is good, but it is not better than characters like Ayane, Hayate, Ryu Hayabusa, Genfu, Rig and Jannlee.

Hitomi's 8K is terrible for a range poke. 1K is good on it's own and has follow ups (but you can hold the 1KP or hi crush it), 3H+K is a safe low crush and mid kick (only throw punishable if it whiffs). Her 236P is for whiff punishment, shouldn't be used as a range poke. Her 66KK and 66K2K are also pretty decent to get in with. 236K itself is only -1 on block (although it is a high).

Her 3K is also good at mid range, distance safe and has follow ups. You're underrating your own chararcter's tools, lol.

 

[Thanapon Buamongkol]

Genfu (i10/i11/i15) vs Kokoro (i10/i12/i13)
...

Thank you for such extensive information. Never realize that Genfu ever have such a good tools. It is virtually impossible for my zone to find any good Genfu player regardless of how I set the matching parameter. Even the chance to find any Genfu player is close to zero according to my play routine of about 3 hrs a day.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

Thank you for such extensive information. Never realize that Genfu ever have such a good tools. It is virtually impossible for my zone to find any good Genfu player regardless of how I set the matching parameter. Even the chance to find any Genfu player is close to zero according to my play routine of about 3 hrs a day.

Where do you reside?

 

[Crext]

Umm, no, Hitomi's spacing is good, but it is not better than characters like Ayane, Hayate, Ryu Hayabusa, Genfu, Rig and Jannlee.

Hitomi's 8K is terrible for a range poke. 1K is good on it's own and has follow ups (but you can hold the 1KP or hi crush it), 3H+K is a safe low crush and mid kick (only throw punishable if it whiffs). Her 236P is for whiff punishment, shouldn't be used as a range poke. Her 66KK and 66K2K are also pretty decent to get in with. 236K itself is only -1 on block (although it is a high).

Her 3K is also good at mid range, distance safe and has follow ups. You're underrating your own chararcter's tools, lol.

Hm, this was confusing. I feel you keep repeating what I said to a large extent.

I will try to make it more detailed, if my last message proved unclear.

Hitomi has superior spacing against almost everyone other character on the board.
You even had it in the quote. Even if you removed it from context, where the context was "yes, Hitomi has better range game than Kokoro, but that does not mean that this decent range game works well against Kokoro particular". It was a reply to a guy on the last page (think you missed this fact and therefor a lot got misinterpreted as a result).

8K is not a range poke, we agree on this too.
The reason for 1kk and 8k is mentioned is because this is the best "I will get you when you move into me" moves against Kokoro particularly. It has the greatest reach without going into the character at 1.95 meter. Kokoro is a rush down character, so 8k is better than usual. But no, it is still not awesome, which is why I empasis that this is not ideal, and that she forces you into this because 1k is taken away by 6pp, 66p and 2h+kk (her general rush down style in general).

1K is good... You don't say? I even made a tutorial video about it where 1K was one of the nr. 1 moves to learn. But again you seem to miss context. We are speaking Hitomi vs Kokoro here, not in general.

3H+K. Why would you need a mid to long range low crush against Kokoro? She is a rush down character. I'td be rare if you manage to land it as it is slower (20 frames) than almost every approach Kokoro has and she'd mainly do mid approaches to boot (you basically have to guess when low approaches come), and if you land it the reward is not great. If she blocks it you'd be at -3 and in Kokoro's comfort zone.

Her 236p is a whiff punisher indeed. But again you miss the context (If you hit on the tip you can't get throw punished). The clue that we'd always come back to is that Kokoro is a rush down character, where her moves will charge into Hitomi from a range and speed that directly counteracts many of Hitomi's moves. It is the same with 3k, 1k and 46p, normally good moves, but against Kokoro the range is not good enough before you start endangering yourself to her rush down moves where odds are you will get counterhit for tons of damage more often than the other way around.

66kk again you miss the context. I even state it that normally it is a great move, but...

I'll end it here. Context, context, context!

I can see that it was confusing considering there is no quote sign, but that message is not a standalone message and you have to put things in context.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

I'm not missing any context. I told you exactly what Hitomi has for range and that they are effective even in this match up.

1KK is not good nor is it decent for range by any means. Neither is 8K.

Kokoro is not a rush down character, you can't even play rush down that effectively in this game, with most moves with good hit priority being negative (or so negative) on block. She has very good offensive tools, but she is not a rush down character, lol. Especially not when she's literally been slowed down in DOA5U.

2H+KK does not by any means justify rush down. It's not even intended to be used as a get in tool.

I think you really need to play some better players for better match up experience. You clearly cannot see how inaccurate your last post was (while others and myself can, which is why they originally liked my post in the first place). You're too busy worrying about "Context, context, context!".

Your OP even states that you have limited experience and knowledge about said character, especially since you "just recently picked up Kokopuffs." Since I had to come in here and correct two match ups for you.

Discuss the topic maturely.

 

[o_YUE_o]

Match Up #'s don't matter to me. >.>
I play based on how my opponent plays.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

Match Up #'s don't matter to me. >.>
I play based on how my opponent plays.

Still requires some character knowledge though, that's part of how you punish a character.