DOA5U The Official Tier List with Discussion Thread

[iHajinShinobi]

When neither character is in frame disadvantage or advantage, no character in any sort of stun state (critical, hit, guard break), both characters grounded, etc.

So you are aware that a neutral game is comprised of both CQC and mid range (possibly a bit further in long ranges, not fullscreen), correct?

I can also assure you that Hitomi's neutral is infact "not shit" as you claim. This is a character who has solid tools all around, as well as in neutral. The fact that her 2P is even +1 on neutral hit makes it better in CQC. She is not limited nearly as badly as Ein or Leon are in CQC, for example. And this character can fight very well in CQC and mid range.

Would you mind telling me what tools that "you've" been using with this character, before I go any further?

 

[Prince Adon]

When neither character is in frame disadvantage or advantage, no character in any sort of stun state (critical, hit, guard break), both characters grounded, etc.

I don't care about hostile posts. It's the internet, nothing can stop them from doing so.

I was not meaning to come off as an ass my last post, but Hitomi's neutral game is far from shit.

10 frame high punch that leaves her on neutral on NH. 13 frame Mid Punch/Mid kick that leads into respectable mix ups, a 14 frame 2P that is +1 on NH. Her stun game is ass and easily SEable? You're playing her wrong. Not with moves like 2P+K, P+K, 4KP, and 8P. Try adding unique mix ups in her stun game and see how easily your opponent will get out. She has resets and safety up the ass also. Oh and her Punch parry is legit, because even if you whiff you can use it to bait out 7HK, which is -5 on block making it safe, AND the kick is 13 frames. I don't see how her neutral game is ass. Oh, and she has SSK which makes life easy against a lot of the cast. And this isn't even HALF of the shit she can do. I didn't even get on her spacing/footsies game, her whiff punishing, guard breaks, lows, and throw game. Her neutral game is anything, but shit.

 

[Awesmic]

Everyone has natural bias. I see it immensely in basically every player in this community who has ever opened their mouth even once. I see it in casual players, I see it in competitive players, I see it in top-level players, and I even see it in myself. But, that shouldn't keep the community in perpetual silence. Share what you can, and just be ready to receive some backlash.

I got an idea.

To those intimidated by the backlash like myself, why not let them compile their views in private to someone who is immune to the backlash and have them post it on their behalf (preferably anonymous)?

 

[Brute]

I got an idea.

To those intimidated by the backlash like myself, why not let them compile their views in private to someone who is immune to the backlash and have them post it on their behalf (preferably anonymous)?

Because it can be hard to interrogate those ideas when you can't even directly address the source. Furthermore, it provides more incentive for people to make claims without fearing backlash, so people become more reckless. Essentially, it creates something close to what we see with the EH Tier List. People just spout their personal opinions without trying to back them up, and that latter part is very, very important.

Hahaha, fair. I'm just really thinking about where to put in input that isn't basically along the lines of "no, seriously, get rid of most of those 3-7's, that's just not right". HLP is so often "who has the better option select sequences in stun and can make decent wake up reads?" and where there are relatively even spacing tools (which is usually the case, or at the least both have a reasonable way in). To distinguish properly between characters, I'd have to go to hypothetical rounds beyond certain moments.

For Helena, the only 4-6 I have solidly against her is Gen. I will vehemently argue against all of her alleged disadvantages that include Akira (no, if anything she's favored), Ayane (I feel really qualified to say no here), Rachel (if anything she's favored), Rig (she's in good shape here), and Sarah (actually a pretty good match up for her). I don't have a serious, considered 6-4, but might tip my hat at Alpha, Ein, Leon, and Eliot. There are other match ups where I have her favorably listed, but I don't want to blow that up into a 6-4. But her initial numbers are deceptively good; in theory, she has issues with Gen, Christie, Jann, and the others, but the only one where her options end up weaker is probably Gen.

Leifang doesn't have a bad match up to me. Not one. Not to Ayane, and definitely not to Sarah. Her favorables, however, are naer universal and relatively mild. Gen is the hardest match up for her, but probably his most even match up; I'd call it a 5-5. If fishing for favorables, I'd consider Eliot, Ein, Leon (seeing a pattern?), maybe Sarah (yes, really).

That basically just encapsulated your thoughts and opened up the chance for someone to ask for elaboration on specific points. Good start. Better than silence, eh?

Obviously I disagree with you strongly, but hey, that's what discussion is for. Whop whop.
Since we've kinda already been through that discussion with each other, though, I'll let others provide feedback for a change, if they so choose.

 

[Saber]

Would you mind telling me what tools that "you've" been using with this character, before I go any further?

2P in CQC, then another 2P or 6K or 7P to get a quick stun in, if blocked then string delay for mixup or get a tick throw, if I can land 6T then 2P+K, 6H+K or 2H+K.

46P and 236P for whiff punishment and wallslam, and rush in to try and get in another 236P to get them to the wall.

At frame advantage after punch parry or blocked opponent's safe move, then 3KP mixups or if they try to SS I use 4K mixups or P+K, then try to extend stun to get off a launch.

 

[Requiem]

That basically just encapsulated your thoughts and opened up the chance for someone to ask for elaboration on specific points. Good start. Better than silence, eh?

Obviously I disagree with you strongly, but hey, that's what discussion is for. Whop whop.
Since we've kinda already been through that discussion with each other, though, I'll let others provide feedback for a change, if they so choose.

Yeah, I decided to play ball. I'm not sure it's better than silence, but I'm trying here as it really is against natural inclination at the moment.

In any event, yeah, we've discussed the general thrust of why I'm gunshy on the major distinctions. But I do feel I can at least speak for my characters when people are saying that they, say, have disadvantages that are just not genuinely there. And I can elaborate more at length on them in particular with ease.

 

[Brute]

Yeah, I decided to play ball. I'm not sure it's better than silence, but I'm trying here as it really is against natural inclination at the moment.

My natural inclination is to go into the woods and live the rest of my peaceful days as a hermit, so I feel for you.

In any event, yeah, we've discussed the general thrust of why I'm gunshy on the major distinctions. But I do feel I can at least speak for my characters when people are saying that they, say, have disadvantages that are just not genuinely there. And I can elaborate more at length on them in particular with ease.

And this is the important part I feel is missing in Awesmic's suggestion.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

2P in CQC, then another 2P or 6K or 7P to get a quick stun in, if blocked then string delay for mixup or get a tick throw, if I can land 6T then 2P+K, 6H+K or 2H+K.

46P and 236P for whiff punishment and wallslam, and rush in to try and get in another 236P to get them to the wall.

At frame advantage after punch parry or blocked opponent's safe move, then 3KP mixups or if they try to SS I use 4K mixups or P+K, then try to extend stun to get off a launch.

So my next question is; does spacing and footsies (yes they are two different things) exist in your play? Because they honestly really need to if you're playing Hitomi (same in regards to Momiji). This is what makes her really strong.

 

[Yurlungur]

hitomi is higher tier,
she is a completely solid character and has tools for ever situation which a lot of characters don't
plus her force tech game is really annoying and easier to do so then most characters

 

[Brute]

Leon's CQC is actually not terrible.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

Leon's CQC is actually not terrible.

Didn't imply it was, I said Hitomi has more options.

 

[Yurlungur]

this is going to sound really noobish but what's a cqc?

 

[Zeo]

Silliest list I've seen yet. I could pick apart everything wrong with it, but I'm pretty sure everyone else already knows.

 

[Zeo]

Close quarters combat.

 

[Saber]

So my next question is; does spacing and footsies (yes they are two different things) exist in your play? Because they honestly really need to if you're playing Hitomi (same in regards to Momiji). This is what makes her really strong.

Of course, definitely. I usually space out a bit to bait opponents to whiff strings to try to get in a 46P or 236P then rush in to force tech them or start some CQC with 2P, 6K, P+K or 7P and start mixups and string delay or even run in and try to get a 6T to start offensive pressure.

 

[Yurlungur]

booboo is just suffering from "i feel like my character is shitty when they're not because i can see obvious flaws which others can't see"

 

[Brute]

booboo is just suffering from "i feel like my character is shitty when they're not because i can see obvious flaws which others can't see"

Seeing your character's flaws is one thing.
Failing to see even a portion of their vast array of strengths is another.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

I wouldn't mind seeing your replays, I'm curious to see how you play. Aside from that, I can't agree that Hitomi isn't top 5, let alone top 10. This character doesn't really have a big downside to her that would otherwise make her less than average.

Like Ayane, Hitomi is very intimidating during footsies (even Momiji is intimidating during footsies, ask everyone that has played me recently).

 

[Saber]

PS3's not with me, but even then, my only replays are against AI and any offline replays are 1-bar because of my location.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

I see, that's understandable. I am just curious about why you feel Hitomi isn't top 5/top 10. You're most certainly entitled to your opinion (as am I) but I've enough experience against Hitomi and other means (tons of recent labwork, both with and against Hitomi). As well as @Prince Adon normally making solid use of her in our matches often. I just don't see her being less than that.

She's incredibly underrated, if anything. As well as Momiji (even Ayane by some folks lol).