The Art Style and Graphics Discussion

[Chapstick]

Sorrry buddy gaming PCs can already do this.

I'm surprised it took 17 pages for one of you to show up and say something like this

 

[Tyaren]

I'm surprised it took 17 pages for one of you to show up and say something like this

By someone I have on my ignore list...
Since I don't use my PC and laptop for gaming I was talking about consoles of course. I'm well aware that gaming PCs have more power. But raw power isn't everything regarding graphics... There's so much more to consider. The art style, the talent of the artists, time, money... The imho most beautiful games (The Order 1886, Until Dark, Horizon Zero Dawn, Uncharted 4...) are all to be found on consoles, specifically the PS4. If FFXV comes to PC (which it very likely will) it will probably look amazing though and leave most of the competition behind.

 

[petopia]

By someone I have on my ignore list...
Since I don't use my PC and laptop for gaming I was talking about consoles of course. I'm well aware that gaming PCs have more power. But raw power isn't everything regarding graphics... There's so much more to consider. The art style, the talent of the artists, time, money... The imho most beautiful games (The Order 1886, Until Dark, Horizon Zero Dawn, Uncharted 4...) are all to be found on consoles, specifically the PS4. If FFXV comes to PC (which it very likely will) it will probably look amazing though and leave most of the competition behind.

PCs are better and will always be better then any console whether if its next gen or last gen. Please you should consider opening your arms to haters and friends alike. Sarcasm inbound (I didnt know the internet can turn so much people into introverts).

 

[Chapstick]

So yeah I downloaded the PS4 demo of the Uncharted collection/whatever it's called. I honestly think they did nothing but change the resolution to 1080 at 60fps, it looked just like I remembered it. Animations were clunkier than I remember. Didn't even care enough to screenshot it. :/

Also I don't remember if anyone's mentioned EA's UFC game yet but the fully body deformation looked neat and I can see TN implementing it in DOA6. Good example at 0:39-

 

[petopia]

So yeah I downloaded the PS4 demo of the Uncharted collection/whatever it's called. I honestly think they did nothing but change the resolution to 1080 at 60fps, it looked just like I remembered it. Animations were clunkier than I remember. Didn't even care enough to screenshot it. :/

Also I don't remember if anyone's mentioned EA's UFC game yet but the fully body deformation looked neat and I can see TN implementing it in DOA6. Good example at 0:39-

These games look good but game play wise its a joke.

 

[Chapstick]

game play wise its a joke.

 

[KasumiLover]

...what's going on?

 

[Jadeinchains]

...what's going on?

Everyone is dying of boredom waiting for TN to start revealing the Halloween dlc.

 

[Goarmagon]

I hope more fighting games deals with clipping like the UFC games do. Thats amazing.

 

[Tyaren]

Is that game already out? The models look amazing. O: I highly doubt we will see body/muscle deformation in DOA6. Well, maybe on the boobs, when they are punched... :/ I'm still so bummed that Tekken 7 looks so dated. I have all my hopes on Soul Calibur 6 now. If it ever comes....

So yeah I downloaded the PS4 demo of the Uncharted collection/whatever it's called. I honestly think they did nothing but change the resolution to 1080 at 60fps, it looked just like I remembered it. Animations were clunkier than I remember. Didn't even care enough to screenshot it. :/

Nah, that's not really true. They greatly improved the framerate, lighting, textures, shaders and particle effects. They also swapped out all main character models for the better looking Uncharted 3 models. The developer Bluepoint Games, that did the port, is actually known for their very solid work. Here an in-depth technical comparison on the Uncharted Nathan Drake collection vs PS3 Uncharted II.

I did download the demo too. Here are some pics I took:

The integrated photo mode does really suck though. XD

 

[Tyaren]

This discussion makes me wonder of anyone in new TN actually studied art though.

I'm pretty sure, there are enough studied artists and designers left at TN. Even though the stages of DOA5 don't hold a candle to the artistic marvels of 2 Ultimate, 3 and 4 the game does still look really pretty and coherent in it's design. The complete redesign of the art style was imho also a great success. The grungy menu design isn't my cup of tea personally, but it's also well designed. (If I look at the menu design of some other fighters...x__X') So, even though many left, there's still talent and educated people there, I'm sure.

Apropos menus...

... aren't Persona 5's menus amazingly stylish? *__*

 

[The Enforcer]

Carry over thoughts from the other thread, since there are still thoughts circulating.

Well, according to this thread there's apparently no need to study art/design... Programmers, like Enforcer, can do it just as well and know just as much. Do you mind, if I carry my response over into the graphics and art style-thread, Argentus?

there seems to be a lot of sentiment that school solves everything. I have just as much degree qualifications as some of you are touting, and then some with on the job experience as well as entrepreneurial endeavors. But it's not a degree that guarantees a persons ability to succeed, think or work. I have friends in related fields with less formal education than me making way more money. I taught myself more about my core study before starting college and learned way more practical application outside of it.

I'm surprised that it hasn't come up in any of your studies that art and many other fields are about pushing boundaries. Those boundaries are the rules you're speaking of. If someone always plays by the 'rules' they won't stand out which is what you're saying you want art design to do which it can't if it has to follow every rule that has been subscribed to on the subject.

In relation to those above menus, is the suggestion there that those followed certain rules?

Another thought on Laura's character is that even anything it is following rules, rules that lend themselves to playing it safe. For those unaware even Eddy Gordo is based on a real world person which in and of itself could be considered 'unoriginal'

 

[werewolfgold]

In relation to those above menus, is the suggestion there that those followed certain rules?

I'm only going to get involved to a certain extent because as was said in the other topic, you don't join art forums for a reason. lol

I can see both good and bad in those Persona 5 menus. Some of the things that had to be taken into account are things like balance. How much visual info is on one side of the screen compared to the other? See how the character balances out the menu items on the other side? Things like that. How is your eye being led around the screen? You can see the usage of the circles in the blue screen and the dog tag chain in the green screen as kind of a guiding line that ties everything together. If you were to break those rules...well...it'd probably be easier to demonstrate with an example of someone screwing it up, but I can't think of anything off of the top of my head.

Each menu gives off a certain style and personality for the character being used there. They manage to be cohesive, while not being bland. However, I could easily see someone being overwhelmed and seeing it all as too busy with too much movement. Just watching these gifs continuously make my head hurt. And the black and white moving star pattern in the first menu kind of drown out that campaign select number that's supposed to be in the background, though it appears to not be super important. But, I'll give it the benefit of the doubt and assume that if you hold on a menu, it's less...ridiculous. But, even then, if you're cycling through things quickly, it'd just go back to being ridiculous with a lot of movement. And the font may not be everyone's cup of tea.

So you could hold to some of the ideas in the first paragraph, while tweaking things in the second paragraph. It'd be "following rules", but still allowing a lot of freedom of expression.

 

[Tyaren]

Carry over thoughts from the other thread, since there are still thoughts circulating.

there seems to be a lot of sentiment that school solves everything. I have just as much degree qualifications as some of you are touting, and then some with on the job experience as well as entrepreneurial endeavors. But it's not a degree that guarantees a persons ability to succeed, think or work. I have friends in related fields with less formal education than me making way more money. I taught myself more about my core study before starting college and learned way more practical application outside of it.

I'm surprised that it hasn't come up in any of your studies that art and many other fields are about pushing boundaries. Those boundaries are the rules you're speaking of. If someone always plays by the 'rules' they won't stand out which is what you're saying you want art design to do which it can't it it has to follow every rule that has been subscribed to on the subject.

In relation to those above menus, is the suggestion there that those followed certain rules?

Another thought on Laura's character is that even anything it is following rules, rules that lend themselves to playing it safe. For those unaware even Eddy Gordo is based on a real world person which in and of itself could be unconsidered 'unoriginal'

To be perfectly honest, I find it not only quite conceited but also offensive that someone, who isn't from a certain subject/field of expertise, thinks he can tell people, who studied this subject for years and also worked in that field, how it is supposed to be. In a previous post you even looked down on my school and my "instructors". So, are you not only a design wunderkind but also an expert of European art/design schools and the professors working there?

And please stop quoting the "rules" thing all the time. You might haven't noticed, but English isn't my native language, so the way I word my posts might sometimes sound a little...let's say not so profound to a native speaker. "Rules" is probably the wrong word. Does guidelines sound better? Whatever you name it, I had to learn these guidelines for 4 years. This included figure drawing, object drawing, illustration, experimental design, art history, color theory, animation, photography, typography, packaging design, media theory, marketing/promotion, marketing psychology, promotional ad, promotional film and in the end I majored in character design and illustration. Part of my studies was also a semester working for an advertising agency and during all that I also worked for my personal pleasure as a comic artist for several international book publishers.

Last but not least, yes, to design a menu like this you have to be aware of these guidelines. There's more to design than to just make something look pretty. That's only the tip of the iceberg. Also menus tend to be typography heavy, which is really a science on it's own.

 

[The Enforcer]

To be perfectly honest, I find it not only quite conceited but also offensive that someone, who isn't from a certain subject/field of expertise, thinks he can tell people, who studied this subject for years and also worked in that field, how it is supposed to be. You even looked down on my school and my "instructors". So, are you not only a design wunderkind but also an expert of European art/design schools and the professors working there?

And please stop quoting the "rules" thing all the time. You might haven't noticed, but English isn't my native language, so the way I word my posts might sometimes sound a little...let's say not so profound to a native speaker. "Rules" is probably the wrong word. Does guidelines sound better? Whatever you name it, I had to learn learn these guide lines for 4 years. This included figure drawing, object drawing, illustration, experimental design, art history, color theory, animation, photography, typography, packaging design, media theory, marketing/promotion, marketing psychology, promotional film and I majored in the end in character design and illustration.

Last but not least, yes, to design a menu like this you have to be aware of these guidelines. There's more to design than to just make something look pretty. That's only the tip of the iceberg. Also menus tend to be typography heavy, which is really a science on it's own.

Wow, you're really upset. Anything I've said was not intended to insult. Let's take things down a notch.

1) I have nothing against your instructors, in your culture you must hold them in high regard. Here, education is hailed as important, but there are countless examples that work ethic can trump education. That's the point I was making. Outside the box thinking is not always taught in 'schools'

2) Look in the mirror for a sec, you are calling me conceited saying I know nothing about the fields in discussion because I only mentioned one field of 'many' that I know. You don't know what my experience level is on a great number of things, so who is looking down on who now?

3) Actually no I did not know that English was not your native language, your English is actually great from what I've read.

Now, back on topic. Guidelines would definitely make more sense for the discussion context. The thing about guidelines though is that they can be broken. I think in Laura's case, Capcom has a certain goal they're trying to meet. So they're following guidelines for cultural expansion or drawing a crowd based on familiarity, so I'm in defense of her design for those guidelines. But in the sense of originality guidelines, then no she definitely, does not follow those. Everything needs to be taken in context. Some people will like her, some won't and that's what I'm saying is artistic and subjective, and why I couldn't say her design is all good or all bad.

Extended to werewolfgold's posts & Tyran's last paragraph. I whole heartedly agree that there are techniques involved that require a technical skill. There are some things that are best for a user, and some things that aren't. Since we're using the word guidelines now, and having spent my fair share of time in UI I think there are good/better/best choices, but there somehow ends up being an intersection of pleasing display, necessity for function and in the end the final vision of the product. I wouldn't call those menus good or bad, they have strengths and weakness. Just like Laura's character design. All of them created by their owners to meet a specific need in hopes of resonating with their audience which will never achieve 100%, but it's still the hope that it will.

 

[werewolfgold]

I think that it's important to separate what's objective from what's subjective.

You said, Tyaren, that if you brought in Laura's design that your teacher would kick you out of class. But I could maybe show it to one of my former teachers and have them think that it wasn't bad. I've had a good number of them of different ages and tastes. You also really couldn't say that a character like Ryu wouldn't get you tossed out of class either, could you? In the end, he's just a guy in a karate gi and headband. No special color scheme or anything. But for whatever reason, he has become iconic.

I could go on forever and ever about how terrible a design Honoka is and have any number of reasons and logic to back it up, but look at all of the people throwing their money at her. It doesn't really matter to them how supposedly "objectively" terrible she may be. And I think that's the point trying to be made here. Not that you had bad teachers or something, but just that people are different. And sometimes artists can disregard various rules and guidelines and still be successful for some reason. Art and design are funny that way.

 

[Tyaren]

Wow, you're really upset. Anything I've said was not intended to insult. Let's take things down a notch.

1) I have nothing against your instructors, in your culture you must hold them in high regard. Here, education is hailed as important, but there are countless examples that work ethic can trump education. That's the point I was making. Outside the box thinking is not always taught in 'schools'

2) Look in the mirror for a sec, you are calling me conceited saying I know nothing about the fields in discussion because I only mentioned one field of 'many' that I know. You don't know what my experience level is on a great number of things, so who is looking down on who now?

3) Actually no I did not know that English was not native language, your English is actually great from what I've read.

Now, back on topic. Guidelines would definitely make more sense for the discussion context. The thing about guidelines though is that they can be broken. I think in Laura's case, Capcom has a certain goal they're trying to meet. So they're following guidelines for cultural expansion or drawing a crowd based on familiarity, so I'm in defense of her design for those guidelines. But in the sense of originality guidelines, then no she definitely, does not follow those. Everything needs to be taken in context. Some people will like her, some won't and that's what I'm saying is artistic and subjective, and why I couldn't say her design is all good or all bad.

Extended to werewolfgold's posts & Tyran's last paragraph. I whole heartedly agree that there are techniques involved that require a technical skill. There are some things that are best for a user, and some things that aren't. Since we're using the word guidelines now, and having spent my fair share of time in UI I think there are better choices, but there somehow ends up being an intersection of pleasing display, necessity for function and in the end the final vision of the product. I wouldn't call those menus good or bad, they have strengths and weakness. Just like Laura's character design. All of them created by their owners to meet a specific need in hopes of resonating with their audience which will never achieve 100%, but it's still the hope that it will.

Yes, I'm actually upset...or was.

1) Alright.

2) You clearly stated before that you are not a designer but a programmer yet you acted to know it all about design and you also had your thoughts about my school and professors. In that regard I think you acted conceited and offensive. We didn't speak about any other of your or my experience levels. I don't know you at all, so I can't look down on you. I have literally no picture of you.

3) Yeah...I hear this quite often...

Regarding Laura (I wished we had better images and videos of her):

She is not really a "bad" design. It's just bland, boring, unimaginative and stereotypical. Well, all that might already rank as a bad design... XD There are fields Capcom did right with her though. Let's see: She matches the overall art style well, she's very attractive, her clothing is simple yet easily recognizable, the color scheme is kept simple and clean (though Brazil's flag colors are naturally clashing)...and now it already gets tough to see more positive attributes. She might be amazingly well animated or voiced. We have to see...

Regarding game menus:
Well, there's always things to nitpick about. The Persona 5 menus are still pure gold compared to other atrocities...

or...

 

[The Enforcer]

Yes, I'm actually upset...or was.

2) You clearly stated before that you are not a designer but a programmer yet you acted to know it all about design and you also had your thoughts about my school and professors. In that regard I think you acted conceited and offensive. We didn't speak about any other of your or my experience levels. I don't know you at all, so I can't look down on you. I have literally no picture of you.

She is not really a "bad" design. It's just bland, boring, unimaginative and stereotypical. Well, all that might already rank as a bad design... XD There are fields Capcom did right with her though. Let's see: She matches the overall art style well, she's very attractive, her clothing is simple yet easily recognizable, the color scheme is kept simple and clean (though Brazil's flag colors are naturally clashing)...and now it already get's tough to see more positive attributes. She might be amazingly well animated or voiced. We have to see...

Regarding game menus:
Well, there's always things to nitpick about. The Persona 5 menus are still pure gold compared to other atrocities...

Re: #2, Exactly, lol. I try to behave opposite of some internet trends I see. I didn't bring up my list of things because 1) they may not always be relevant 2) I don't like to start a conversation by tooting my own horn and 3) with the internet one does not easily verify their own accomplishments.
So that's why I haven't listed a number of things I have worked in... writing, film production, video editing, game development, and on and on. When I said 'as a programmer' I just meant that 'on a given day, during the course of, etc' Not that programming is all that I do, it's just what I get paid for during the day and there are creative work arounds I see to some often technical rule oriented problems. So yeah, just because I have experience in other thing does not mean that I can assume that someone else may not have experience without knowing anything about them, or having listed their full credentials But yeah, water under the bridge.

Yep, so now Kudos, because what you did their with your description of Laura is identify both good and bad which is all I tend to be after many times when lots of people want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Personal preference can often lead to excessive hype or extreme disgust, and I tend to step in and temper that. XD Because personal preference varies so drastically as we see here on FSD and because all of our preferences vary so much doesn't mean that all artistic decisions by TN or Capcom are franchise ending choices, lol.

And props to werewolfgold as well for an objective description of Honoka as well. I know how much he dislikes her.

And we all come away with seeing strengths and weaknesses of the art content.

An interesting point on menus. I deal with business apps, and sometimes people want an extreme amount of information much like JRPG's... there's always this goofy balance of trying to show EVERYTHING the user wants and STILL make it legible. It's very difficult to do both, sometimes it's just not possible. So the programmer's job is handed off to the graphic designer to make a pretty mess out of the data nightmare. I can see that being relevant in the screenshots you shared.

 

[SilverForte]

I know diddly squat about the art industry and proper design and all that. All I know is what I personally find appealing. Art is highly subjective and from my experience there are some basic guidelines you can follow but you can't please everyone. Like with laura I'd find her perfectly fine if her hair was symmetrical on both sides, the most unique thing about her is the part I don't really like. I would think personal taste also features heavily in how you develop your own style and make use of what you've been taught.

And those persona menus are certainly creative but I think there's a bit too much going on there.

 

[Kronin]

Art is highly subjective and from my experience there are some basic guidelines you can follow but you can't please everyone.

Honestly I feel the same in my ignorance on the matter. Like in any field - and even more when the artistic sensibility is called into question - I see that the variables about it are just too much for giving an absolute judgement on something, variables not only related to the preferences of each persona according to their personal being (so as Silver Forte mentioning that doesn't like the asymettrical hairstyle of Laura praised from others - and personally I'm fond of it), but also geographic and temporal.

I also think that not each kind of designs needs to own the same characteristics for being considered "good" and/or "succesfull" (of course the definition of good and succesfull would be another matter of discussion that would make the topic still more complex, even considering that they haven't to be necessarily considered the same thing), but everything needs to be argued in relation to the subject of it: so what is requested from a character is not the same of what is requested from a menu or an environment; or again, making a consideration even inside the same realm of elements - as for example only game menu between them - a minimalistic design could be pretty fitting considering the atmosphere of a game in comparison to something elaborated and creative that could be considered good looking but out of place (I'm not talking here about the overmentioned FF menus).

If I didn't misunderstand I got the impression that about Laura, and so about a fighting game character, the discussion of her good design concerned overall about how much original or unique a such character could be seen from its, but - just for making the first example in my mind - I don't judge the use of stereotypes intrinsecally negative when you are going to create a such kind of character with the purpose to appear as someone coming from a certain part of the world or with assigned particular themes. On the opposite the nationality would lose of any meaning with an appearence too much far from something that you can relate to the matter (as I mentioned Leon in DoA, that apparently want make stand his life spent in the desert at the expense of his Italian origin, and even this is a possible choice).

Like always these are my 2 cents about it and nothing more than it.