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That is very, very cool stuff; thanks for the heads up. Also thanks for correcting my numbers as well, I was working from memory. I wouldn't have thought of using 8p, honestly. It's amazing how many options she has to set up different scenarios depending on what you'd like to go for and the...

Holy hell, that's a good one. That's going in the arsenal...

So it looks like unholdables in general don't work. I tried a couple of setups with Tina and Bayman where I was pretty certain I would be hitting on first possible frame and both the CPU and I could hold out. Also, the guide indicates a 0 frame startup for holds now. So it looks like that...

In the other thread, typically hold 3p (or whatever stun), 236p, 3k, 3p+k, f+p. That specific example will net you around 92 damage on normal hit if memory serves, vs 60 for the force tech setup I mentioned. So it's a relatively large loss of damage to go for the force tech. Unfortunately I...

Typically in Helena context it's the 236p+k or similar, the spinny three chop BKO entry. I think the one you're talking about is a 2 in 1 natural combo if it's what I'm thinking of (236pkp?). Might be thinking of the wrong thing though.

I think that's the correct one, but I wasn't setting it up off the throw; maybe that's the difference. I've just started trying to get my head around Helena so I will confirm my numbers. Any frame advantage is good but the grapplers just get amazing setups off force techs and a +6 is somewhat...

Well, I'll record and test when I get home. I'll see if I can find something 19 frames and with a good bunch of active frames and see if I can get out. Even forcing a just frame hold would be great, but wouldn't they just be able to buffer it into the recovery? I'm not sure how generous the game...

But in principle this is how it works, right? So say after the +17 reset I use 3k, it's 15 frames and I think it has at least 2 active frames; assuming the second active frame should then be active on on the first frame they can act on the first frame the opponent can act, they can't hold it...

Holds still require a frame to become active, right? With force techs this might imply a situation where there are actually still unholdable setups (I'm not sure if this is how it worked in DOA4?). If you're at e.g. -19 and I time an attack to be in active frames at the 20th frame, your hold...

So there's kind of an interesting question here, I think it may be more true for 6f+k off the 2p 1p force tech, but as I understand it holds take 1 frame to become active. So if you have the active frame hitting on the 20th frame after a +19 recovery, does that make it unholdable? I can't think...

Sort of. On it's own 1k won't force tech but it gives you enough time to land p+k to force the tech. It's basically just a little more damage. Tina has something similar with 1p 6f+k, for example. You can just use p+k raw but this ekes out a little more damage and the timing is slightly more...

No timing required, just stick that big knee right in there. This thread is becoming uncomfortable. No, seriously, you can pretty well mix between h+k or one of the launchers at 11+ or better (so almost all force techs worth using). It's unsafe on block but if you get a limbo stun that's not...

Some characters are just like that though. Which is not to say you should autopilot by any means, but Mila's got some good setups and there's no reason to deviate. If you're not force teching with those two you need to start.

That sucks, it would have been cool to have an unbreakable. Guess that's one of those scary guaranteed damage things we can't have. We can't have a lot of nice things. Is there any difference in the frame advantage on breaks? Or is it always +3 for any of his OH if they're escaped?

Is in the back of a scary van? That's where the best ice cream comes from!

Maybe I'm doing it wrong but the force tech seems to kind of suck ass. I think I'm getting something like +6 after the BKO pp2k one and I think +0 after BKO 6p? May be mixing those up. Compared to Mila getting +19 and 12 damage from a 3f+k after 3f+k or 9p I think we can safely assume Helena...

This thread is the embodiment of the FGC pointing at us and laughing. Goddamn. DOA is non-competitive because a lot of you refuse to compete. End of story. Look, aesthetically, I don't like juggles. They're a legacy solution and I think a purely stun-based game would actually be pretty cool if...

Ok, 46f+p and variations. While I like him having a nice proper takedown for style purposes, I'm at a bit of a loss as to how to use it.Two questions: 1) When is this actually useful vs. DDT? Is it just the 4 frames faster for catching some stuns more easily? 2) The variations seem to do the...

1k, p+k should work and net a little more damage for your advantage. You can set it up from stun something like hold 3p, p+k, 1k, p+k for about 60 damage but it doesn't seem to work off any juggles. You are giving up quite a bit of damage relative to the Rikuto Standard Juggle (TM), but I...

Tina in crap tier is pretty hilarious too. I suppose if you play idiots all the time. Bass ain't that low, Lisa is way too high for offline tiers. Otherwise semi-accurate.