"3-7 is the new 5-5" Helena match up thread.

Belinea

Active Member
Eliot is grossly unsafe so if you want to avoid his parry you want to identify which of his strings are safe and grab everything else. Eliot doesn't benefit heavily from latency like Mila and doesn't have a lot of safe strings like Ryu so throw punishing him isn't a major problem online.

In my opinion I'd say that Eliot is one of the safest characters in the game, so I'd avoid throw punishing unless the match is laggy, or the Eliot player can't do 46p.
 

Omegan Eckhart

Well-Known Member
In my opinion I'd say that Eliot is one of the safest characters in the game, so I'd avoid throw punishing unless the match is laggy, or the Eliot player can't do 46p.
Well you do main him so your opinion is obviously more informed than mine. I could be wrong but I've always found him to be easy to grab. Although you're the only Eliot I've played in DOA5 and I spend most of my time in stun during our matches.
 

Belinea

Active Member
My reasoning comes from the fact that Eliot can do 46p out of the vast majority of his strings (I think he has 12 methods of doing it?), which leaves him at -3 on block. And then there's 66p+k which leaves him at +4. In my opinion a good Eliot player (i.e, not me) should be able to stay safe at pretty much all times. The real way to destroy him though would be to rush him down, as he has no real tools to deal with being put under pressure.
 

DR2K

Well-Known Member
My reasoning comes from the fact that Eliot can do 46p out of the vast majority of his strings (I think he has 12 methods of doing it?), which leaves him at -3 on block. And then there's 66p+k which leaves him at +4. In my opinion a good Eliot player (i.e, not me) should be able to stay safe at pretty much all times. The real way to destroy him though would be to rush him down, as he has no real tools to deal with being put under pressure.

Against Helena his parry is pretty dangerous. She's very mid oriented.
 

DontForkWitMe

Well-Known Member
My reasoning comes from the fact that Eliot can do 46p out of the vast majority of his strings (I think he has 12 methods of doing it?), which leaves him at -3 on block. And then there's 66p+k which leaves him at +4. In my opinion a good Eliot player (i.e, not me) should be able to stay safe at pretty much all times. The real way to destroy him though would be to rush him down, as he has no real tools to deal with being put under pressure.

are we talking about the same eliot here with the fastest strike in the game that beats out other characters standard i9 pokes or parries that grant him guaranteed stun set ups and a pseudo- launcher. if anything hes better equipped to deal with rushdown tactics; its the evasive characters that fuck him up the most due to his linearity and shitty tracking moves
 

Belinea

Active Member
...parries that grant him guaranteed stun set ups and a pseudo- launcher....

There's two ways to put someone into stun from the parry, the first being 9k, which won't launch as it's not longer a nh 2-in-1 launcher ala doa4, it's undelayable - therefore removing any mixup from the string, and while unholdable can be either crushed or escaped by low holding, meaning it's not guaranteed. The second is instant 3p, and because Eliot is +15, and because it's impossible to buffer during a successful parry animation it therefore gives you a precise error margin of zero frames to get it right, which with doa5's wonky online and borked buffer system means it's an unreliable option in my opinion. And it can be crushed by Helena anyway as well. And pseudo-launcher? None of his launchers are guaranteed, so you could literally be talking about any of his launchers here. In my opinion his parry only really becomes a great tool when used against the wall, otherwise all it really is is a nuisance. Easily the worst version he's had in the 3 games he's been in.

if anything hes better equipped to deal with rushdown tactics;

...are we talking about the same eliot here with the fastest strike in the game that beats out other characters standard i9 pokes...
Before I get to my point it should be noted that you can't free cancel into instant 3p, as the computer will occasionally glitch and get it mixed up with 33p for no reason. With that said:

This is actually something I've talked about before, as dealing with rushdown characters is a problem he has always had. The problem stems from the fact that Eliot's moveset in actuality is deceptively slow. Beforehand his quickest moves were p (10i, high attack), k (13, high attack), 9k (also 13, high attack), then instant 3p (13, mid), and now his new 7p (9, another high). While it's great that he has a 9 frame attack the only real purpose it serves is to give him yet another quick high attack - otherwise the move is actually kind of crap as it's both limited in use and range. Instant 3p has to be buffered but this becomes actually impossible to do when being pressured as you would have to come out of block, and not only that but if you do risk it and were holding F to block you run the risk of having the glitch described above happen. So essentially his quickest mid attack is rendered useless, leaving the only choice being high attacks. In such a situation you're going to want to avoid k and 9k as they have quite wide animations and leave you at too much disadvantage, leaving you with p or 7p. So basically Eliot is the same now as he always was, his only option beforehand being the jab, and after months of playing doa5 I don't think an attack that's 1 frame faster honestly helps him in such situations that much. In my opinion a character such as Christie, with a 9 frame jab and 12 frame mid just shuts down Eliot completely. 7p was a nice addiction to his arsenal, but honestly not what he needed. What he actually needed was for his mid attacks to be sped up. Eliot is a slow character.

...its the evasive characters that fuck him up the most due to his linearity and shitty tracking moves

You're not wrong here though. While never a problem before, characters with a good sidestep game can get around him with ease.

-
Sorry for going wildly off-topic everyone.
 

DontForkWitMe

Well-Known Member
he also gets :3::K: guaranteed from a parry which puts him in a stun mixup situation where he can either finish the full :3::K::P: sitdown string into guaranteed instant :3_::P: launcher or continue the threshold any way he pleases. also by pseudo-launcher im talking about his :9::K::K: which is only holdable if you critical hold it meaning the opponent will have to buffer the hold during the recovery animation post-parry which sets up the opponent to be hi-counter thrown if eliot mixes it up with :9::K: into his throw launcher or another stun mix up situation. either way the parry immediately puts a stop to an opponents offense and puts them on the defensive and they have to guess out of what he'll follow up with; its his most useful tool no matter how you slice it.

as far as 7p goes i agree its range is garbage which proves my point that its great against rushdown, in order for an opponent to rush him down they'll have to get into his 7p range which is where it becomes useful and puts them into deep stun on counter hit not to mention his solid high crush abilites with :3::P+K: and :2::H+K: . overall eliot is best played defensively and has the tools to defend against rushdown tactics.


to go back on topic for the helena/eliot matchup:
spam the bitches SS into low sweep and laugh at how helpless he is against that shit
 

jjinkou2

Well-Known Member
Hi

i had a lot of bad online match up against Ayane. Any tips or video are welcome for a beginner like me. Once ayane is playing evasive , i just keep saying "oh no.. the game is lost".

It's even worse for Lisa, just seeing her walking, i know i'm done at the beginning of the match. But that was explained in former posts and i'll try to improve my guessing.

Ryu i'm not really afraid of, since i saw mamba-master video at DID8, i understand now better what can I do.
Jan lee also i can manage it online with BKO.
Alpha, i just had realised that you can block most of online opponents and then punish them.

Rig i don't know at the beginning. It really depends on how the player masters it. Sometimes it's a no brainer game with opening like 1ppk. but when the kicks start to flow from rig , i'm roasted.

hitomi, mila, kokoro are still monsters for me to deal with. I need more experiment to understand how to counter them.
But ayane's opponents are so popular online that i 'm really fed up.
 

ninjaguy446

Well-Known Member
Hi

i had a lot of bad online match up against Ayane. Any tips or video are welcome for a beginner like me. Once ayane is playing evasive , i just keep saying "oh no.. the game is lost".

It's even worse for Lisa, just seeing her walking, i know i'm done at the beginning of the match. But that was explained in former posts and i'll try to improve my guessing.

Ryu i'm not really afraid of, since i saw mamba-master video at DID8, i understand now better what can I do.
Jan lee also i can manage it online with BKO.
Alpha, i just had realised that you can block most of online opponents and then punish them.

Rig i don't know at the beginning. It really depends on how the player masters it. Sometimes it's a no brainer game with opening like 1ppk. but when the kicks start to flow from rig , i'm roasted.

hitomi, mila, kokoro are still monsters for me to deal with. I need more experiment to understand how to counter them.
But ayane's opponents are so popular online that i 'm really fed up.

Vs. Rig, you can crush a lot of his moves with your moves such as 1PPK, P+K, BKO duck, etc. If you're feeling confident while blocking his kick, toss out a P+K.

For Ayane, utilize BKO duck to your advantage. It completely bypasses some of her BT strings such as 66KK4.

Against Lisa, I'm not really sure but try to be aggressive against her so she can't get her offense going. If she does get it going though, make sure you block! Most of Lisa's lows are slow and obvious so you can hold them. Be careful though because if you hold too much and continuously fail. Her throws can take A LOT.

Against grapplers such as Mila always tech and back away (you don't have to back away but always tech) because you don't want to eat that ground damage. Unless of course it's a guarantee setup but always try to tech.

Hitomi has monstrous throws so be careful when holding. Her 33T does more then 100 damage on Hi Counter on a wall hit so you definitely don't want to eat that. Her 6T can be bothersome. Some Hitomi players will just run up and keep doing it and then when you try to hit them they will stop your attack, sidestep, etc with their advantage. Just be mindful when you get hit by this of everything Hitomi can do. Also, most of her string are mid or start with a high and end with mids. So, if you are going to hold, hold mid punch or kick; whichever one you expect.

Hope this helps :)
 

Omegan Eckhart

Well-Known Member
Can someone please explain to me where Helena stands against Hayate and Jann Lee?
Late reply:

Hayate > He beats her up close, he has an i10 jab, a i12 mid punch that beats her i12 mid punch and an i12 low. So from the start of the match she has to let him set the pace of the fight seeing as P+K doesn't work well against him. When at range BKO duck doesn't save her from his 3F+K, she has to work to get in on him and only when she has her PFT going can she compete up close.
His command side step forces her to guess very correctly after PFT. Her fastest tracking move is 1P which is i17, if you think he is going to side step and you do 1P and he uses his fastest mid poke 6P Helena will lose out so even with +4 at your disposal you need to guess well.
Overall you lose up close and at range, only through strong mind games will Helena win seeing as Hayate's tools are much easier to throw out. Helena has the tools to win as well but her tools are very situational whilst his are far more general.

Jann Lee > As with Hayate he beats her up close with his i10 jab, i11 mid punch and I think his low punch is i12? Helena's is i14 so whatever it is it's not as slow as hers. Unlike Hayate though her P+K will crush his 6P, but only at range.
His 3K, 66K and 4P string will keep her out at range, neither of her running attacks have even the slightest chance of working. He has quite a few tracking lows that can give her problems with BKO duck and BKO in general.
His Dragon Gunner is tough for her to deal with, you'll never be in BKO whilst he is pressuring you up close obviously and her fastest crushes only have her in crouching status for a couple frames so DG will cut through most of her attacks. 2F+K is probably the best move to deal with it but using an i23(?) move up close against Jann Lee is suicide for the most part.
As with Hayate PFT is the only way to go in this match up, until you get it going you are in a lousy situation.

This is part of what I don't like about Helena in DOA5, almost all of her match ups are lousy until you introduce this one thing that makes them even at best. Hopefully she will be more interesting in DOA5U with a broader range of tools instead of being this one trick pony type of character.

Hi

i had a lot of bad online match up against Ayane. Any tips or video are welcome for a beginner like me. Once ayane is playing evasive , i just keep saying "oh no.. the game is lost".

It's even worse for Lisa, just seeing her walking, i know i'm done at the beginning of the match. But that was explained in former posts and i'll try to improve my guessing.

Ryu i'm not really afraid of, since i saw mamba-master video at DID8, i understand now better what can I do.
Jan lee also i can manage it online with BKO.
Alpha, i just had realised that you can block most of online opponents and then punish them.

Rig i don't know at the beginning. It really depends on how the player masters it. Sometimes it's a no brainer game with opening like 1ppk. but when the kicks start to flow from rig , i'm roasted.

hitomi, mila, kokoro are still monsters for me to deal with. I need more experiment to understand how to counter them.
But ayane's opponents are so popular online that i 'm really fed up.
Ayane is tough, her ranged tools are completely safe and track so side stepping gets you killed and blocking gets you nowhere. I'll try to break down Ayane's Forward Facing, Back Turned, Rolling and Spinning Stances by listing some key points to look out for.

Forward Facing:
2P is i12 and 0 on NH so be very careful with BKO and BKO duck as a good Ayane will throw this out a lot seeing as it's fast, crushes high's and causes a pure reset at worst for her.
4P is her panic move, it's fast at i15, crushes high's and some mid's. It also tracks so side stepping often results in you simply getting launched so watch out for that.
6P comes out in i13 but behaves more like an i12 move for some reason. When free cancelled it puts her in BT which means she can flip over you or go into spinning stance so watch out for the mix up. She can also finish the string with a mid punch that launches or a mid kick which tracks, both are unsafe however.

Back Turned:
4P is as above as she can do it from BT as well.
6P launches on CH, comes out in i13 and crushes high's.
2K is a tracking low so side stepping and BKO get stuffed by this.
PP6KK4 is her +1 frame trap from BT so be ready for that.
1P is an i13 low that tracks so this move not only comes out really fast and crushes high's but it also beats side steps and stuff's BKO duck. This attack has a low kick follow up that tracks and stuns on NH, she also has a BT low throw so you have to respect these follow ups.
PPPP is a string that ends with a guard crushing mid punch that gives her +5. Not hard to see coming but annoying to counter online.
I have to say that I disagree with one thing that NinjaGuy said and that is about using BKO duck against Ayane when she is in BT. If she free cancels into BT she is always unsafe so you can get a free grab against her. It can be risky to do this though so I would recommend doing 4PPK/8K, if this connects to her when she is in BT you get a maximum height launch offering you a free 92 point damage combo. Don't go passing that up.

Rolling Stance:
She can only do four single actions from this stance, she has no strings do pressure with.
F+P which is a standing throw, obviously this cannot be side stepped unless you are Christie.
F+K which is a mid kick. Do not try to BKO duck when she rolls at you as the mid kick connects with grounded opponents.
P Which makes her flip over you leaving her in BT.
K Which is an i47 low crush which sometimes crushes mid's too. It's -5 on block so only grappler's can punish it. I'd use Helena's 4P string when blocking this so as to avoid Ayane crushing you with her BT 4P.

Spinning Stance:
This one is much harder to deal with than Rolling Stance even though she has only two options that link straight from this stance, a low kick string and a mid punch.
KKK or KK2K is a string that stuns on NH and all three hits track regardless of what variant of the string she decides to do. Be mindful of the fact that the opponent won't finish the string unless they don't have you in stun. KK2K results in her gaining +17 on block but she is pushed way too far away to capitalise on it.
P, this mid punch crushes high and sometimes crushes mid's. It also has a very good hit box which makes beating it out with an attack of your own very difficult. Helena's 7K works well to beat of out both attacks but the timing it tough and the likely hood of Ayane using it at neutral is pretty slim.

The best moves for Helena's to use in this match up when Ayane isn't stunned are fast mid's that can't be crushed easily so try to focus on 33P (i13), 4P (i15), 9P (i14), BKO 6P (i12) and BT4K (i12). Avoiding high's and her 3P (i12), this move might be her fastest mid from Forward Facing but it is too easily crushed to be reliable especially against a character like Ayane.
This list is pretty extensive so hopefully it will be of use to you.
 

DR2K

Well-Known Member
FYI the OP is pre PFT, after PFT you can just add 2-3 points to her favor. The number is irrelevant since after knockdown every character has to guess out of disadvantage to actually get out of the blender.
 
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