Not that those systems necessarily suck, but it's a moot point, either way.
Good thing most people with criticisms aren't asking the system to be nerfed because they can't deal with it. Otherwise that might be relevant.
A Brute Perspective on Sidestepping
- Thread starter Brute
- Start date
I dont know man..everytime I see someone talking about the sidestep system they are asking for it to be nerfed and my experience with it has been that its good but not so much to justify the bitching about it from a lot of people. Most people dont post frame data and examples and rationale like you did and to be honest I think the complaining is over blown.
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Most people defending the SS don't go into the technicalities of it, either. The reasoning for this is simple: most people are both dumb and lazy, whether they're defending the SS system or complaining about it.
So, you got some stupid people saying SS system is broken because they can't deal with it, and then you have some other people saying that the SS system is absolutely perfect because it can be dealt with (double-digit IQ logic). Both of these groups are way too myopic to consider that the system could be... wait for it... improved. Crazy concept, but as it turns out, most things are imperfect, and as long as players refuse to entertain arguments that aren't 100% binary, it's going to stay that way.
I never said it was perfect at all but by the same token I stand by my statement that people are over reacting with the buffed SS. I dont play the entire cast so I cant go into technical detail as to where it fails hard but I know I have combos to deal with people trying to get cute with it. I will concede that the properties of the moves need to be more consistent. The way tracking works in VF is a good benchmark with full circle and half circle moves are dealt with in that game.
Well, see, you're falling into the same trap. You make a vague statement about having ways to deal with it and use that as an excuse to justify dismissing the criticism.
A couple of things to consider:
1) You could "deal with" SS attacks (or not having reliable SS attacks) in DOA5, as well. But apparently it's okay to subjectively dislike that system, but if you subjectively dislike the DOA6 system, it must be because "you can't deal with it."
2) I play Lisa. This new SS system is great for Lisa players. It favors me far more in most MUs than my opponent, and very rarely do I lose any matches due to SS abuse. Sure, I get popped with SSing sometimes. Everyone does. But it's hardly a bane on my performance, and more importantly, it doesn't shift Lisa's game-plan into something fundamentally stupid or unsatisfying to play. It does do that for other characters. It's like playing For Honor, where you just sit around terrified of attempting to initiate an offense. You can do it. You can deal with SSing no matter which character you pick. But is it dumb and detrimental to creating an engaging and satisfying gameplay experience? Yes.
3) In order to dismiss all proposed system retooling (ie: not character-specific tools for dealing with the system), you would have to state that any change to any of these traits would be inherently detrimental.
4) Imagine a hypothetical, where you had two SS attacks. The first functions just like the current SS attack, except that it's a high. The second is a mid, but instead of providing a wall splat knockback, it provides a pushback (either positive, negative, or neutral frames, can be any for the purposes of the thought experiment) with no wallsplat. Give each whatever frames on guard you deem most appropriate. Could you deal with this new system? Yes. Is it still highly evasive and useful as an anti-pressure tool that doesn't suffer the same cons people cite from DOA5? Yes.
It's far from perfect. You can debate the details of such a hastily concocted system and I may even agree with some of your critiques. But the point is that people don't even consider any potential perspectives. Instead, they fanatically dismiss all criticism by relegating it to "You can't deal with it and I can, hurrdurr" and if pressed, they default to "Well, it's better than DOA5," as if those systems are the only two options.
A couple of things to consider:
1) You could "deal with" SS attacks (or not having reliable SS attacks) in DOA5, as well. But apparently it's okay to subjectively dislike that system, but if you subjectively dislike the DOA6 system, it must be because "you can't deal with it."
2) I play Lisa. This new SS system is great for Lisa players. It favors me far more in most MUs than my opponent, and very rarely do I lose any matches due to SS abuse. Sure, I get popped with SSing sometimes. Everyone does. But it's hardly a bane on my performance, and more importantly, it doesn't shift Lisa's game-plan into something fundamentally stupid or unsatisfying to play. It does do that for other characters. It's like playing For Honor, where you just sit around terrified of attempting to initiate an offense. You can do it. You can deal with SSing no matter which character you pick. But is it dumb and detrimental to creating an engaging and satisfying gameplay experience? Yes.
3) In order to dismiss all proposed system retooling (ie: not character-specific tools for dealing with the system), you would have to state that any change to any of these traits would be inherently detrimental.
- All characters should have only one SS attack
- All SS attacks should be mids
- All SS attacks should have extremely generous hitbox/hurtbox ratios
- All SS attacks should be -15 on guard
- All SS attacks should grant a knockback that triggers wallsplats and danger zones
4) Imagine a hypothetical, where you had two SS attacks. The first functions just like the current SS attack, except that it's a high. The second is a mid, but instead of providing a wall splat knockback, it provides a pushback (either positive, negative, or neutral frames, can be any for the purposes of the thought experiment) with no wallsplat. Give each whatever frames on guard you deem most appropriate. Could you deal with this new system? Yes. Is it still highly evasive and useful as an anti-pressure tool that doesn't suffer the same cons people cite from DOA5? Yes.
It's far from perfect. You can debate the details of such a hastily concocted system and I may even agree with some of your critiques. But the point is that people don't even consider any potential perspectives. Instead, they fanatically dismiss all criticism by relegating it to "You can't deal with it and I can, hurrdurr" and if pressed, they default to "Well, it's better than DOA5," as if those systems are the only two options.
NightAntilli
Well-Known Member
Ok. I think I figured out what the "issue" is... I went into training mode. And I discovered something. The sidestep by itself, it's not so bad. In fact, it's exactly the same as DOA5.
What I did was the following. I threw a punch on a blocking opponent, and set the computer to react with a sidestep attack. I tried doing three things.
1) I tried to also sidestep as soon as I recovered from my attack, without doing the attack.
2) I tried to time the attack of the opponent and sidestep at the correct moment, without doing the attack.
3) I tried to sidestep as soon as I recovered from my attack and do the sidestep attack myself.
Guess what happened.
With number one, I got hit after sidestepping. The attack is initiated after I initiated my sidestep, so it makes sense for me to get hit.
With number two, I successfully sidestepped the opponent's attack. No surprise there.
With number three, things get interesting. I successfully sidestepped the opponent's attack.
What it means?
It's simple. It means that the sidestep attack itself has a secondary sidestep built into it. In other words, when you do a sidestep, it's a single sidestep like DOA5, and when you do the attack, it works as if you did a second consecutive sidestep while attacking at the same time. It's not invincibility frames, because you can still get hit by tracking attacks during the windup of the attack...
This is why the sidestep feels like it dodges everything. It's a two in one.
What I did was the following. I threw a punch on a blocking opponent, and set the computer to react with a sidestep attack. I tried doing three things.
1) I tried to also sidestep as soon as I recovered from my attack, without doing the attack.
2) I tried to time the attack of the opponent and sidestep at the correct moment, without doing the attack.
3) I tried to sidestep as soon as I recovered from my attack and do the sidestep attack myself.
Guess what happened.
With number one, I got hit after sidestepping. The attack is initiated after I initiated my sidestep, so it makes sense for me to get hit.
With number two, I successfully sidestepped the opponent's attack. No surprise there.
With number three, things get interesting. I successfully sidestepped the opponent's attack.
What it means?
It's simple. It means that the sidestep attack itself has a secondary sidestep built into it. In other words, when you do a sidestep, it's a single sidestep like DOA5, and when you do the attack, it works as if you did a second consecutive sidestep while attacking at the same time. It's not invincibility frames, because you can still get hit by tracking attacks during the windup of the attack...
This is why the sidestep feels like it dodges everything. It's a two in one.
Yeah, it does feel like Team Ninja designed the SSA to be quite punishable if "called out" on. Fatal Rushes are made to be tracking moves specifically to punish SS's, quite a bit of strong tracking moves can induce a Fatal Stun on sidestepping opponents such as Ayane's 4H+K too. I don't generally play characters with OH's regularly, but they can beat out SS's too IIRC, including the generally useful i16 66T's. SSA's are made to be -15 on block so people can perform i12 punishes or so if they correctly bait it out then punish accordingly.
There is invulnerability added to it that prevents linear strings in general. It beats out continuous strings, as well as strings that get free cancelled into other strings. Perform Christie's 9P on block (which is neutral) and then 6PP in DOA5 on yourself while stepping 6P, and then perform it in DOA6 while leaving yourself neutral without 9P (since it's converted as her Fatal Rush).
1) DOA5 - You'll get hit by the second mid punch follow up (SSAs in DOA5 varies since each character have their own individual SS attack and multiple attacks from it). In DOA5 you'd have to SS twice to avoid 6PP completely with minor exceptions such as Jann Lee where his SSA attack avoids it because his follow up SSP is quick enough to interrupt the second hit.
2) DOA6 - You'll beat out 6PP because that second hit doesn't track at all (as it should be).
In DOA6, moves such as Hayate or Raidou's 6PK will cleanly beat out a step attack the moment 6P whiffs. Most character problems in game even from what I tested is that most strings with follow up tracking are too slow to beat out the SSA. (which I do think it's actually pretty unfair for most characters like that), TN could probably adjust the startup speed of the SSA and make it slower while still keeping that same invulnerability vs linear strings.
If we had to come up with similarities, you could say that DOA6 took Jann Lee's SSP from DOA5 in speed with invulnerability attached to avoid strings that retrack and beat out most follow up strings immediately, and then universally included it to everyone in the roster. The problem with DOA is that it's incredibly offensive oriented for mindlessly attacking at disadvantage and abare for 80% of the situation while rewarding players for just hitting a few buttons that even completely nullifies most step situations. An opponent gets rewarded for you making correct decisions which is absurd. SS twice in DOA5 is a risk which is just asking to get thrown (which majority of throws is unbreakable), so you are forced into this heavy yomi of obnoxious guessing with hardly any thoughts behind it.
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DR2K
Well-Known Member
Side step has no excuse being this good and abusable. It makes the game look like a janky mess on top of it all.
It looks like it can be interrupted between step and attack. The portion of the attack that is no longer being side stepped should be hittable, they just become invincible and your attacks/strings that would naturally/visually/logically beat other attack out just flat out lose.
Can anyone that has contact with Team Ninjas 1 gameplay designer ask what this type of move was supposed to address? Why not just improve the side step system that was in 5? Why make this janky piece of shit mechanic?
It’s just adding more guess/luck based gameplay than there needs to be and for no reason at all. You can already hold out of any stun, low hold and place your self in advantage, keep yourself grounded and delay your wake up kick until the next game of thrones season comes out. defensive options reign supreme, the fuck does the defender need another lifeline.
It looks like it can be interrupted between step and attack. The portion of the attack that is no longer being side stepped should be hittable, they just become invincible and your attacks/strings that would naturally/visually/logically beat other attack out just flat out lose.
Can anyone that has contact with Team Ninjas 1 gameplay designer ask what this type of move was supposed to address? Why not just improve the side step system that was in 5? Why make this janky piece of shit mechanic?
It’s just adding more guess/luck based gameplay than there needs to be and for no reason at all. You can already hold out of any stun, low hold and place your self in advantage, keep yourself grounded and delay your wake up kick until the next game of thrones season comes out. defensive options reign supreme, the fuck does the defender need another lifeline.
DOA for the most part gets janky since the beginning of time, so it being janky shouldn't be a surprise in general when it's similar shit you deal with in previous games. Low kicks beating out jumping attacks, wonky hurtboxes, CH for backdashing etc. like I can go on here. People have been asking for step improvements ages ago and TN heard it. It's not what people expected (shit I didn't expect it) but it sure as hell beats having that costco version of a step DOA5 had.
Guessing from what? because the attacker no longer has the option to continuously attack from abare and beating out step attacks from free cancelled linear strings and retracking? have people applied conditioning anymore? baiting out steps? a player should not be rewarded for tapping buttons from abare and expect other players to constantly use CH poke methods to change the tide when block stun recovery is constantly applied for massive guessing.
If the step attack is that much of an issue, then tell TN to ask another company on how to do it. Go ask Sega. Damn Namco's T7 has a better step than DOA5, and their version is direction based off stance and limbs (SSL/SSR) which is hilarious.
Guessing from what? because the attacker no longer has the option to continuously attack from abare and beating out step attacks from free cancelled linear strings and retracking? have people applied conditioning anymore? baiting out steps? a player should not be rewarded for tapping buttons from abare and expect other players to constantly use CH poke methods to change the tide when block stun recovery is constantly applied for massive guessing.
If the step attack is that much of an issue, then tell TN to ask another company on how to do it. Go ask Sega. Damn Namco's T7 has a better step than DOA5, and their version is direction based off stance and limbs (SSL/SSR) which is hilarious.
Do you know what made DOA look more jank? DOA5's sidestep system where players were constantly getting punished for sidestepping a linear attack then getting hit by a mashed out follow-up that's supposed to be "No Tracking". DOA6's SSA's addresses the issue of people mindlessly mashing out strings and getting rewarded for it by stuffing people that are trying to sidestep supposedly "linear moves". I play Christie & Kasumi, I know firsthand how obnoxious string pressure was in DOA5 compared to DOA6. Also, a big reason why the SSA is beating you is because it deals 30 damage and needs to be beat out by a strike dealing more damage (like how you need to deal 21 damage or more to beat out wake-up kicks clean). DOA6 is still offensive heavy, you just need to be smarter with your pressure and neutral now. With that said, I wouldn't mind if they toned down the invulnerability on a SSA after the SS has clearly ended.
As long as it beats out linear strings entirely from neutral and disadvantage from the opponent, then it's golden. The only benefit I'd have to give DOA5 step was unique attacks for each character, some SSAs in DOA5 were safe allowing you to fuzzy etc. but if you were to add safe ones in DOA6 then it would be busted. Safe ones had to go if you try to add them in 6.
When you hop in the lab DOA6, lots of strings with tracking enders are too slow (Mila, Helena, Hitomi, etc.) most of the problems stems from situations like this without people realizing it. They could adjust the startup speed of the actual SSA attack and make it slow where such moves will land (the ones that track).
Well, that didn't take long.
Might as well ask another company to do it then where it's a lottery and hope for the best, which is obviously a bigger chance than TN handling their own shit at times. Ask Sega, or some other company that probably doesn't know much for the fighting game genre but ends up making the SS successful despite having no knowledge of the genre and then finally succeed on good stepping where TN couldn't.
I mean hell, what if this was the best TN can come up with since DOA is "that" different from most other games (or trying too hard to be different when it shouldn't) while trying to improve step, who knows.
I mean hell, what if this was the best TN can come up with since DOA is "that" different from most other games (or trying too hard to be different when it shouldn't) while trying to improve step, who knows.
I do.
It's not.
@Brute Going to your main post a bit since it's about your perspective for it:
So, in conclusion, I think players’ perception of the sidestep system is greatly influenced by the character(s) they’ve been playing,
This could be true, and I most definitely don't disagree since this can apply to something such as tier lists or match ups, but I would like to say that the same can be very much said for the players who played characters that killed people for trying to step accordingly in 5 to where they just take it and absorb it. I've noticed and know a ton of Christie, Helena, Kasumi popular players where they are simply not fond of it. Then I watch countless videos of such popular players and noticed that 40-60% of their situations involves them beating out people who step and ate up like 45% of their health because of a mistake that was never meant to be a mistake in the first place when hit by linear strings that magically align again. People have been playing in that same habit for 3 iterations already in 5 to where it becomes oblivious to them. I mean, it's an opponent so why should it matter to them right? it's precisely for that moment that they simply didn't give a shit if the game ends up bad as long as they get to keep hitting buttons for mindlessly tapping with no thought process behind it. Winning is important right? least to the majority and what makes them comfortable. Now they have to literally perform a single-two attacks and short pauses to where they have to think and being patient while trying to keep some degree of aggression and pressure than a mindless one.
I agree that a player's viewpoint can get indoctrinated by the type of character they play, but yet this also can be factors and variables being placed to where it's also based on how they play. I know Ayane players that love spacing, and yet I also know Ayane players that hate it that just go ballsy up close (weird kek right? I mean it's real), while having their experience of the game changed compared to the ones that love spacing. An individual could of had a good run playing the game like that without realizing he's been playing it wrong, but he's been winning against players in that fashion and made him/herself comfortable to it. Course, who are we to tell someone he/she been playing a character wrong, because if it works for them and makes them happy, then that's what it is.
I suppose the step system can also be used as the test dummy to how I experience the game, but this is more universally no matter which character I played. I even played Akira in 5 and I get happy that people step him despite how much I shit on 5 stepping, at times forces me to think and then I force people to no longer step because of throws or baits and then it becomes my favor again. It's different for everyone, but this is something of a situation that realistically shouldn't happen but DOA lets it happen no matter which character people play via 5 from the whole step topic until DOA6.
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Raansu
Well-Known Member
They need to at least change the fact that the SSA's cause pushback on block. They are all -15 yet half the cast can't be thrown with a 12i throw. Rig's SSA is basically safe. 4 characters cannot punish it at all and the rest of the cast can only punish it with 6T and only if they block it point blank. Busted game is busted.
NightAntilli
Well-Known Member
Made a video about my previous points:
Raansu
Well-Known Member
Its not just Rig though. His is just the most busted. A universal -15 SSA on block, but yet only certain throws on certain characters will even connect because of pushback on block.