About morons online

[DrDogg]

Because it removed a lot of the balance. Now its just favoring rushdown over defense, whereas previous DOAs had a solid balance. People were afraid of the heavy punishment from counters, so they thought things through instead of just rushing in, and the game was far more tense, in depth, and tactical for it. Now, there's a whole lot more "guaranteed" stuff and you cant counter as much and counters don't do as much, so a lot of the defense and mindgames are gone, so its almost JUST offense. A lot of the depth is just kinda gone now. And no, "combos" doesn't equal "depth". Just having complicated offense doesn't mean much unless there's a complicated defense to MATCH it.

I can play defense way better in this DOA compared to DOA4 or DOA2U. So I'm not sure what you're talking about there. Also, there really isn't very much guaranteed damage. It's "maybe" a little more than DOA4, but not by much. Maybe you just need to get better at the game? (not a diss)

 

[SilverKhaos]

I can play defense way better in this DOA compared to DOA4 or DOA2U. So I'm not sure what you're talking about there. Also, there really isn't very much guaranteed damage. It's "maybe" a little more than DOA4, but not by much. Maybe you just need to get better at the game? (not a diss)

I also play better defense in DOA5, because the smaller windows means counters flow better with everything else.

And there's a lot more, because there's barely any wakeup due to force teching, no ground defense beyond tech rolling, the new wall stuns, and all the situations where you can't hold anymore (ground, wall, critical burst, etc), which, as I said, leads to a lot of the depth being gone, because most people just try to rush in and combo now, not caring if they get punished because the counters don't do much damage (relative), and they can do even more damage with offense than before, so it seems to me that they think that because theres so little risk and so much reward, thats why they keep just trying to rush in with combos.

So my point still stands.

 

[DrDogg]

I also play better defense in DOA5, because the smaller windows means counters flow better with everything else.

The smaller window is insignificant. It really doesn't change much at all and needs to be smaller before a difference can really be seen.

And there's a lot more, because there's barely any wakeup due to force teching, no ground defense beyond tech rolling, the new wall stuns, and all the situations where you can't hold anymore (ground, wall, critical burst, etc), which, as I said, leads to a lot of the depth being gone...

What you really mean is a lot more "guessing" being gone... which isn't even really the case because there's still a ton of guessing in the game.

Basically, you want to be able to get out of any situation. Instead of a get out of jail free card, why not just improve your skills at the game so you don't get yourself into those situations as much? You don't like the fact that you can't counter on the ground, why not improve your defense so you don't get knocked down as much? Not to mention you still have invincible wake-up kicks on the ground.

So my point still stands.

As does mine. You need to get better at the game because most of your complaints are not actual complaints. They are a result of your lack of skill in DOA5. Again, I'm not trying to be mean, but it's clear that your issues are not issues high level players have with the game. It's because they are non-issues once you reach a certain level of skill.

 

[Brute]

snip

Recovery times on most things are increased, making almost every move very unsafe. Thus, players are actually more cautious in 5.

People rushed into your face before match start in DOA4. Hell I did.

Basically, everything in your post is absolutely wrong in all my experience.

 

[SilverKhaos]

The smaller window is insignificant. It really doesn't change much at all and needs to be smaller before a difference can really be seen.



What you really mean is a lot more "guessing" being gone... which isn't even really the case because there's still a ton of guessing in the game.

Basically, you want to be able to get out of any situation. Instead of a get out of jail free card, why not just improve your skills at the game so you don't get yourself into those situations as much? You don't like the fact that you can't counter on the ground, why not improve your defense so you don't get knocked down as much? Not to mention you still have invincible wake-up kicks on the ground.



As does mine. You need to get better at the game because most of your complaints are not actual complaints. They are a result of your lack of skill in DOA5. Again, I'm not trying to be mean, but it's clear that your issues are not issues high level players have with the game. It's because they are non-issues once you reach a certain level of skill.

Okay, here's the issue i'm seeing.

You say "you just need to get better at defense", but why is it that offense gets to be babied, while defense just has to suck it up? I liked previous games because there was more of a balance.

If I tell people they just need to get better at offense, they blow a gasket and start going off at how OP countering is because they can't just mash their way into combos.

I mean, if offense gets a "Put me in jail for free" (guaranteed damage), why shouldn't I get an equal "get out of jail free" card?

Also, no, i'm not talking about any "guessing". I hate people trying to use that word as an excuse to discredit countering, as if that same logic doesn't also apply to offense.

Not trying to be overly aggressive, just really ticked off right now for IRL reasons, so excuse any blatant hostility.

I'm not asking for defense to be favored, i'm asking for offense to stop being so favored and both to be balanced. It should be 50/50 of offense and defense. I am good enough at my defense to get around all this,but it still doesn't excuse the fact that defense is at such a disadvantage compared to past DOAs.

All i'm saying, is, please don't just say "get better" when me getting better does nothing to solve the issue that offense basically got buffed while defense got nerfed, leading to, like I said, a huge lack of depth because people now disregard defense in favor of just rushing in.

It just reminds me, in another thread, somebody was complaining how they hated it when their opponents back up, do hit and run, back up, take their time, and they get frustrated and prefer rushdown. Only reaction I could give was "welcome to the world of actual fights. Rushdown is a very poor idea in a real fight, and you never want to be the one to make the first move." In past DOAs, this was still somewhat true, lending itself towards being like an actual fight. Now? Nope. I see people constantly just shuffling into my stomach before the match even starts due to the changes favoring offense over defense.

My skill level doesn't change or affect that. I can punish people all day long, perfectly counter, and they will keep just rushing in, again, due to all the changes, as they know that their reward, should they do it, far outweighs all the risk and punishment they get.

 

[XDest]

Recovery times on most things are increased, making almost every move very unsafe. Thus, players are actually more cautious in 5.

People rushed into your face before match start in DOA4. Hell I did.

Basically, everything in your post is absolutely wrong in all my experience.

Did you even read the DOA4 frame data? 99% of the movelist was more than -7 on block. Don't believe me?
http://www.deadoralive.jp/doa4/al/pdf/doa4_al-(characternamehere)-e_on.pdf

Also, for those stating force techs as a reason DOA5 is more rushdown oriented, DOA4 had them too. Actually, it was more powerful since unholdables existed after the untechable. It's just because of the higher gravity and people actually looking for them that they're now brought front and center. Hayabusa used to have tons of them, and they were found within the first half a year the game was out. For example: Ryu's 6KK PP2K, or Helena's BKO grab 1K. Brad Wong has pretty much the exact same force techs in both games. Hell, it's possible that the force techs I found for Ayane in this game actually work in DOA4, maybe I should try, the move properties are pretty much identical.

 

[SilverKhaos]

Recovery times on most things are increased, making almost every move very unsafe. Thus, players are actually more cautious in 5.

People rushed into your face before match start in DOA4. Hell I did.

Basically, everything in your post is absolutely wrong in all my experience.

But that's just in your experience. I very rarely, if ever had people facerush pre match in doa4 or ultimate. Most were too smart for that, knowing they could lose close to half their life for being that reckless.

I'm speaking purely from my own experiences.

 

[DrDogg]

But that's just in your experience. I very rarely, if ever had people facerush pre match in doa4 or ultimate. Most were too smart for that, knowing they could lose close to half their life for being that reckless.

I'm speaking purely from my own experiences.

A majority of the time you're guessing on offense and defense. Offense did not get any more buffed than defense. They're both about equal due to the rampant guessing in the game.

Guaranteed attacks are few and far between. I don't even understand why you would complain about that. You rarely see them aside from CB and CB can't even occur until you've had 2-5 chances to escape the situation. Even when it does occur, you only get one free hit, and if CB wasn't an option, the CB attack would just be a launcher.

Offense has to worry about the fact that 99% of the attacks in the game are unsafe. It was not buffed.

 

[HiguraShiki]

Because it removed a lot of the balance. Now its just favoring rushdown over defense, whereas previous DOAs had a solid balance. People were afraid of the heavy punishment from counters, so they thought things through instead of just rushing in, and the game was far more tense, in depth, and tactical for it. Now, there's a whole lot more "guaranteed" stuff and you cant counter as much and counters don't do as much, so a lot of the defense and mindgames are gone, so its almost JUST offense. A lot of the depth is just kinda gone now. And no, "combos" doesn't equal "depth". Just having complicated offense doesn't mean much unless there's a complicated defense to MATCH it.

The fact that now you see people shuffling into your face before the match begins is proof enough of why DOA has taken way too many steps backward. Nobody would DREAM of doing that in previous DOAs. The risk of punishment was too great. Now, though, the risk of punishment is negligible at best, so people just continue rushing in, comfortable in the fact that if they manage to land a hit, they get to do a ton of damage due to all the guaranteed stuff now, while if they get punished, they take barely any damage from the counters. So its all all reward with almost no risk, at least in comparison to past DOAs.


things like how they removed the ability to do counters while laying on the ground are really dumb, too. Now people can just keep kicking you while on the ground with no fear of retaliation, leading to the force tech nonsense. Before, I could low counter people trying to kick me while i'm on the ground and punish them for being a) being a dick by kicking someone while they are down, and b) jumping the gun and just continuing to attack.

To summarize...before, it was even closer to an actual fight. Now its....just another 3d fighter, I hate to say. Still love this game over other 3d fighters, but it sure is a huge step backwards, overall, for DOA. Sure, they added (useless) sidestepping, and Mila, but that's about it.

Why oh why do you continue to say this stuff. Is it your goal in life to torture the souls of all people who support competitive gaming?
Let me try AGAIN to explain to you why that is a bad idea.

Holds are not supposed to be a main form of defense. Blocking is supposed to be your main form of defense. If you don't block, that just goes to show how good your defense really is. Holds are get-out-of-jail-free cards that basically give you extra chances after making a mistake. You didn't block that low shot? No problem! You still can hold the next 3 attacks to stop him.The only difference is that now holds are less broken. You actually have to time your holds instead of just holding 2 damn seconds before the attack comes and they don't have Ridiculously high damage that surpasses that of a juggle. How does 1 hold = more damage than a juggle, please explain to me how that makes sense to you.

The game was not more tactical. A game is not tactical just because you run around, poking people into stun, and holding them. It becomes complete 100% guessing, which makes a very shallow game. What you fail to understand is that, in other fighting games there is guessing, but at least you can do someting about it. In DOA you cannot. Once you get stunned, you are completely fucked unless you either hold correctly or avoid a grab. You cannot move out, backdash out, sabaki, sidestep, NOTHING. All you do is stand there in stun. That does not in any way shape of form = depth, because you aren't really doing anything but saying "He is probably throwing a mid kick. Wrong.. Ok this time he will throw a mid punch, he is throwing what looks like a punch so it is probably going to be a mid. Wrong. Alright, he is definitely going to do a Mid kick launcher. Let me hold it! Correct." How the hell does that make a good competitive game?

You seem to love comparing DOA to real fighting, but let me just break it to you, it isn't anything like real fighting. Real fighting actually HAS guaranteed stuff. If you land a blow at the right spot at the perfect speed, your opponent will go down or be too badly hurt to do anything at the moment. Not only that, but it is nearly impossible to be able to land a DOA style counter in real life after you get hit with a full blown uppercut to the gut. Real fighting has absolutely nothing to do with a fighting game. Please just don't compare it to a real fight anymore. Because it isn't. I have fought in tournaments before and it is absolutely NOTHING like doa. You don't go around trying to counter people with some magical stop all move attack, because that crap just does not happen. You try to land COMBOS to open them up. Unless you actually guard properly or interrupt their attack, you will get hit with the combo.

 

[ScattereDreams]

Okay, here's the issue i'm seeing.
I liked previous games because there was more of a balance.

He thinks DOA4.1 was balanced

 

[HiguraShiki]

He thinks DOA4.1 was balanced

You are so friggin awesome

 

[XDest]

He thinks DOA4.1 was balanced

Oh, it was, for none of the right reasons.

Things were even more universal than they are in 5. Everyone had OHs and most characters had good throws. Nobody had guarantees. Everybody played the same guessing game, although with some could do it with a bit more damage or in less guesses before the launch.

 

[Murakame]

Because it removed a lot of the balance. Now its just favoring rushdown over defense, whereas previous DOAs had a solid balance.

I'm sorry but this is incorrect. No way in hell does this game ever favor the attacker. Let's take a look at the list of options the attacker has to pierce a defense and maintain an offense:

Stuns that guarantee attacks
Throws
Force Techs
Guard Breaks (most of which don't even guarantee a followup attack.)

These are the options the defender has:
Interrupting attempts to free cancel into another string
Crushes
Blocking
Throw Punishment
Slow Escaping
Holds (for 4 different attacks, only two of which are ideal (low and mid holds) and the recovery of the low hold is so quick that you can do it and block the next stun if the stun is slow enough.
Wake up kicks
Parries (some of which cover high and medium attack heights like Hitomi's)

Lets assess how easy it is to use each of the attackers options:
Stuns that guarantee attacks: Can be countered by holding.
Throws: Can be countered by button mashing. Do negligible damage on Normal Hit.
Force techs: off the top of my head If your name is not Helena Ayane or MIla you are either taking a huge risk (getting hit by a wake up kick) or sacrificing alot of damage to do this.
Guard breaks: some guard breaks leave you in negative. Some don't even grant enough frame advantage for you to square off with Kasumi. *Cough* Hayate's shitty guard breaks *Cough*

So we see at all times the attacker is taking a huge risk or giving up alot. If the defender on the other hand fails to interrupt or parry an attack and gets stunned they still have 2 strong options (holding, slow escaping) to save their ass even after all the work the attacker had to put in to open the defender up. The attacker has to worry about every single item on the defenders list while the defender is only in any real danger when they are stunned, and even then the attacker still has to worry about slow escapers and holds.

You don't understand how frustrating it is to play offensively in this game, especially as Kasumi. She has fifty million unsafe moves. I could get throw punished on block AND normal hit! I have to limit myself to free canceling and jabs if I want to be safe and even free canceling is risky because I can get interrupted by the defending player. Then when I finally get my combo I have to either A. Back off in fear of a wake up kick or B. Attempt to hold a wakeup kick that probably isn't even going to come, thus making me miss a chance I could have used to force tech. or C. Attempt to force tech and risk getting hit by a wake up kick.

 

[ScattereDreams]

Oh, it was, for none of the right reasons.

Everyone had OHs and most characters had good throws. Nobody had guarantees.

At times I do miss everyone having OH's, or in certain set ups; Brad's ground stance, or just baiting OH's. Although I've grown comfortable with the way it is now, except Lei Fang having OH's >.<. I know she's a hold type, but meh...

 

[Raansu]

Simple fact is that Degalon is just garbage at this game. If he sat down for 20 minutes and watched high level players go at it he would see the same BS as in DoA4 when two high level players were playing. Everything is negative on block so both parties are terrified of attacking each other. You'll see them spend 90% of the fight on the other side of the screen spacing each other out trying to get the first whiff punishment. The few additions of guaranteed damage didn't really change anything in the game because most of the good setups were nerfed after E3. Really, this game is still mostly filled with the shit that plagued DoA4.

And here is a fact for you Degalon. You get rushed down by bad players because they don't know how to play. You get rushed down by good players because they know you don't know how to play. Simple fact is Degalon, you are shit at this game. You pride yourself on "defense" but you don't even block well and when you get stunned you just spam holds guessing after every hit until I just decide to throw you cuz I'm tired of staring at missed hold animations. Hell I remember I stunned you once and paused and watched you hold 3 times after the stun. You are not good at this game, you never will be good at this game because of your mentality towards how you "think" it should be played, and in the end, no matter how good or bad DoA becomes after the patch, you will always be bad.

Edit:
And for the record, unless I'm reading it wrong, it sounds to me in one of your earlier posts that you were saying you could do defensive holds after being knocked down. Not sure where the fuck you got that idea from but you could NEVER do that.

 

[Doa_Eater]

Well that's just too harsh!

 

[Raansu]

Well that's just too harsh!

Maybe, but I'm tired of his arrogance thinking he's some hot shit and anyone who doesn't play by his rule book is "cheap." He will literally stop fighting back if you juggle him even once and thinks anyone who uses them can't win without them all the while refusing to utilize all of Mila's tools himself. He wont ever juggle, he never goes for guaranteed ground throws, he does nothing worth a damn. He doesn't know how to play but acts like he does.

I used to post on gamefaqs out of boredom and that's where he came from so none of this is new to me. He's been going on about "cheap" stuff like this since long before the game came out and has on multiple occasions said he wants to be able to counter out of juggles. He wants a back door out of everything instead of just learning how to block better.

 

[Tokkosho]

Maybe, but I'm tired of his arrogance thinking he's some hot shit and anyone who doesn't play by his rule book is "cheap." He will literally stop fighting back if you juggle him even once and thinks anyone who uses them can't win without them all the while refusing to utilize all of Mila's tools himself. He wont ever juggle, he never goes for guaranteed ground throws, he does nothing worth a damn. He doesn't know how to play but acts like he does.

I used to post on gamefaqs out of boredom and that's where he came from so none of this is new to me. He's been going on about "cheap" stuff like this since long before the game came out and has on multiple occasions said he wants to be able to counter out of juggles. He wants a back door out of everything instead of just learning how to block better.

i have also witnessed this...

 

[HiguraShiki]

i have also witnessed this...

As have I. I remember he was posting about MK. Someone was asking for advice on a few good Sonya combo's and he replied to go figure out the combo's on his own and wen't on about how he finds it boring to get combo's from other players and how watching professional matches are boring because "They all play the same".

 

[Awesmic]

Well that's just too harsh!

Indeed.

Saying he "never will improve" and will "always be bad" reminds me of how I was treated several years ago. If it weren't for a few friends with actual tact that encouraged me the right way, I would've quit DOA and left the community long ago, rather than understand the perspective of the competitive gamer and actually strive to improve.