D.I.D. 8: Aftermath

[shinryu]

*facepalm* Do you people still not get it? Yes other characters can force tech, too. With Helena it's more persistent. It's a big strategy that makes her good since no matter what she has an advantage. Other characters force techs don't have the same luxury as she do. It's like how every characters has thows, but some characters has throws that makes them great like Jann Lee's dragon gunner.

And, bluntly, other characters can do it better. Bayman's not great at force techs but there's at least one specific 90+ damage unholdable set up for a force tech for him and most of the others will net him 50 or so from one guess and +20 advantage. Tina's got straight force tech setups as well as a juggle to pseudo force tech that guarantees either +6 or +22 depending. Zack looks like he's got some good options too.

I'm guessing the reason this may be so strong for Helena ends up being that she can always get a throw that will guarantee a combo starter (236f+p, BT f+p, BKO f+p) and since she can work the force tech game she can basically reset with a throw or get the force tech off any juggle. Arguably several characters can do something similar (Bayman/Tina have 44f+p, Mila/Bass/Hitomi/Zack have 6f+p), though Helena's options are actually guaranteed from BKO f+p and the BT f+p at least, aren't they? If this is her primary strategy I guess I'm ok with that, it's a niche she's going to have with the grapplers and Zack to some extent. I think it's a a viable design for some characters to have this and some characters to be unable to exploit it. The slower characters need this pressure while someone like Jann Lee is really only balanced if he does actually have to get off you once in a while after a knockdown.

However, I don't really know if Helena's version as she is will be viable long term. Bayman is sort of a special case as a "grappler" in that his throws aren't very good; his only real punishment option even against -10 is 4f+p or 44f+p and neither of those are very scary in terms of pure damage (44f+p should at least give him 3p from BT I think). If I had to guess I'd assume Rikuto didn't want to risk a hi counter throw into reset with an OH attempt and so he held back with those, and punishing with 44f+p isn't intuitive. There's a lot of characters that should still really be able to hurt Helena at -10 though (Hayate, Tina, and Bass spring to mind), so once people start to expect to need to input 236f+p or 44f+p from block Helena is in trouble. I think the matchup will tend towards the theory long-term more than this tournament did.

Edit: Watched the video. Non-story, here. Rikuto misses a couple techs and guesses badly in two matches, world grinds to halt, holy shit. As best I can tell there was maybe one actual force tech in the whole match from Helena (and possibly the 1kp that you can use as a guard break mixup). Everything else I saw I'm pretty certain is techable and shouldn't give Helena a lot of advantage. Any advantage is good against Bayman given his speed, sure, but you can see in the rounds where Rikuto got a pressure game going she got folded pretty quick. This is early game stuff here.

 

[Jefffcore]

I think most Helena players don't like listening to people who don't play Helena say that she is really good when all E.Mann did was keep his opponent guessing wrong whilst in stun. Rikuto made a ton of mistakes whilst fighting him and he lost because of it. Rikuto was outplayed, plain and simple.

I may not be on the same page as most of the Helena players as I don't feel she is absolute trash but I KNOW, and let me emphasize that as unlike most people who are commenting on her I actually play her, that even though she has some good tools they don't justify the huge deficits that she got loaded down with in DOA5.

Many characters have the ability to eliminate wake up kicks, I would guess that it is a fairly universal tool but most people have not considered using it in their combo's, that might change soon.

Helena still needs some improvement, making her safer will be enough to make her solid. She cannot get any momentum unless she can hit you with a low that stuns on NH which isn't that easy if you have any experience fighting her as they are pretty obvious. Otherwise she is constantly at -9 on everything she does, she needs safer moves.

As far as the people who are saying she doesn't need ANY improvements, I've been playing her since the Dreamcast and have played her non stop since DOA5 came out. If you don't think she needs any buff's at all and you don't even play her then why do you think your opinion is more informed than mine is? It wouldn't hurt to maybe pay attention to the people who really know what they are talking about.

As far as the Helena players who are emoing out, their on their own.

That's all E-Mann does with any character.

 

[Doug Nguyen]

If Helena is such a bad character and Emann still manages to beat the champion of the launch party's Bayman(which is a high tier character btw) does that mean Emann is 10x better tha Rikuto? I mean if Helena is so bad then Emann must be 10x better than Rikuto to beat him 3-0, while Rikuto is using a top tier character. Is that what you huys are trying to say? Or maybe you guys are trying to say that Rikuto is not a good player and that you guys can do it better? No offense to anyone just trying to understand this whole situation.

There are many theories, Rikuto for one hates fighting Helena, he could of had an off day, he could of got nervous etc.

 

[TakedaZX]

There are many theories, Rikuto for one hates fighting Helena, he could of had an off day, he could of got nervous etc.

Also, lets not forget [time]. It took Master 6 set losses to finally be able to adjust to that setup, specifically the low kick(2f+K)opener, then he had to adjust his offense so that his mids would interrupt mamba's chances.

Rikuto only got 3 chances for his match with Emann, but I'm sure given that the bracket was setup different, he could've adjusted as well. Just an unfortunate setup.

 

[Doug Nguyen]

Also, lets not forget [time]. It took Master 6 set losses to finally be able to adjust to that setup, specifically the low kick(2f+K)opener, then he had to adjust his offense so that his mids would interrupt mamba's chances.

Rikuto only got 3 chances for his match with Emann, but I'm sure given that the bracket was setup different, he could've adjusted as well. Just an unfortunate setup.

Yeah exactly. Since there arent many Helena players, its hard to adjust to one if your not experienced with fighting them. But from what i noticed, all the pretty good Helena players i fought, fight the same. Its like im fighting myself. Manny did a great job adjusting because once he got the hang out blocking Mamba, he did very well. I was amazed by those izuna combos with the ceilings.

 

[shinryu]

Yeah, this is matchup knowledge/adjustment, not a fundamental edge of Helena's or anything. And did you see how many mid punch holds Rikuto ate? You get held that much through bad luck or predictability and you will lose.

Also: if you're claiming Helena is top tier, aren't you kind of claiming scary randomness beats solid tools? If her game is just that she can always be forcing you to guess, well, that's great, but if she can basically flail randomly to victory then we really are playing DOA4 again.

 

[Brute]

Since there arent many Helena players,

After I recovered from laughing, I realized that XBL must be a very different place from PSN.

 

[Doug Nguyen]

Yeah, this is matchup knowledge/adjustment, not a fundamental edge of Helena's or anything. And did you see how many mid punch holds Rikuto ate? You get held that much through bad luck or predictability and you will lose.

Also: if you're claiming Helena is top tier, aren't you kind of claiming scary randomness beats solid tools? If her game is just that she can always be forcing you to guess, well, that's great, but if she can basically flail randomly to victory then we really are playing DOA4 again.

Agreed, all people are freaking out about were her good mix up with stuns. I remember before the game came out people were mentioning how since Helena relies so much on the stun game that she's low tier. All her stuns are mid or low anyways. Now that people see if you utilize her stuns well, they think she's broken. I just think the Dallas players utilized Helena well, so its not like Helena has tools no one has. Most character that end a combo with a slam can force tech too, and Jann lee has incredible unholdable stuns, Helena has 2 very horrible mid punch ones. If the player does well, praise the player not the character.

After I recovered from laughing, I realized that XBL must be a very different place from PSN.

I guess it is.

 

[HiguraShiki]

One of the main reasons why Helena is annoying to fight is simply because her stun game is ridiculous, since she has tons of options after stun game. Essentially, you have to guess right to stop her, which is difficult due to her many launchers, delayable strings, and crush moves.
Aside from that, it is true that she isn't great. She is unsafe as hell. If any attack that leads into BKO is blocked, you can just throw your fastest mid/low and it will hit. I only wish that you could do more than just 1 attack after it, since it isn't much.

The problem with Helena is that she has too many damn options in stun. I mean, blocking is one thing, but eventually you are going to get hit with something *human error*. I am wondering though, is it possible to slow escape out of her stun game?
Also @ Doug, the problem is that she doesn't have to just do a mid or high punch, she can also mix it up with one of her many launchers, which is what makes it difficult to guess correctly.

 

[Doug Nguyen]

One of the main reasons why Helena is annoying to fight is simply because her stun game is ridiculous, since she has tons of options after stun game. Essentially, you have to guess right to stop her, which is difficult due to her many launchers, delayable strings, and crush moves.
Aside from that, it is true that she isn't great. She is unsafe as hell. If any attack that leads into BKO is blocked, you can just throw your fastest mid/low and it will hit. I only wish that you could do more than just 1 attack after it, since it isn't much.

The problem with Helena is that she has too many damn options in stun. I mean, blocking is one thing, but eventually you are going to get hit with something *human error*. I am wondering though, is it possible to slow escape out of her stun game?

Yeah she's pretty easy to slow escape, if the player delays attacks because he's waiting for a counter to come out, then just slow escape. Helena is slow too so i think slow escaping wont be too difficult. But im not sure since i just counter.

 

[CrimsonCJ]

After I recovered from laughing, I realized that XBL must be a very different place from PSN.

There's... a ton of Helena players on PSN? Really? Who?

 

[Brute]

There's... a ton of Helena players on PSN? Really? Who?

Helena is the female Hayate. Not overwhelmingly common as a main, but one of THE most common sub-mains. Shadow and Blasian for eample.

But even so they are plenty of mains. There's this one A-rank guy I keep seeing everywhere. Name starts with an "A" and there's in "r" in there somewhere, too. Anyway, I don't remember names too well, but just duck into a lobby for a while with A-S rank players and you'll start seeing them.

 

[CrimsonCJ]

Helena is the female Hayate. Not overwhelmingly common as a main, but one of THE most common sub-mains. Shadow and Blasian for eample.

But even so they are plenty of mains. There's this one A-rank guy I keep seeing everywhere. Name starts with an "A" and there's in "r" in there somewhere, too. Anyway, I don't remember names too well, but just duck into a lobby for a while with A-S rank players and you'll start seeing them.

I'll have to keep looking, then. Because I really haven't identified a ton of Helena mains on PSN. I have almost never fought a mirror match there.

(Though I'd think Helena is a terrible sub-main pick.)

On the contrast, I hit XBL and found about three in a day. That to me was way more than I ever saw on PSN. But I guess there isn't good math for this, so it's perspective and all. Shocker.

 

[Zeo]

Helena is pretty common on XBL.

I will say this much though, between people that complain about her force teching, and the Helena players who want buffs for her, I'm pretty middle of the road. I would honestly take her getting maybe a frame or so more speed and a bit more safety on just about everything if it meant that force teching bull was removed.

 

[Raansu]

Alpha makes up for lacking a wakeup kick by being batshit broken.

The only thing broken about her is you can't fucking see her on any stage with a bright background.

There is no advantage when teched, if not teched it's +6 for her. You A) have invincible frames teching B) 6p is recovering on whiff. It's all mind games.

You do realize there are recovery frames from tech rolling right? She's still at advantage regardless if she forced you up or not. It's even worse if she has you in a corner as now you can't get away at all.

 

[CatzDaLegit]

Can we get the results on the first page plz?

 

[Scornwell]

If someone PM's me the results, I'll update the first post.

 

[Matt Ponton]

No need, I've already done it.

 

[DR2K]

The only thing broken about her is you can't fucking see her on any stage with a bright background.



You do realize there are recovery frames from tech rolling right? She's still at advantage regardless if she forced you up or not. It's even worse if she has you in a corner as now you can't get away at all.

That and her damage output Makes Jannlee look like Helena.

There's also recovery frames from a whiffed 6p.

 

[XDest]

more safety on just about everything if it meant that force teching bull was removed.

I'd say more characters should get viable force techs instead (or people should find them in the lab, since they probably already exist). Although I haven't seen uncounterables in this game yet, maybe they "fixed" that? I would actually like to see it back in if so. Lets make getting hit be that painful.