Hayate impressions

TakedaZX

Well-Known Member
:1::K: is unsafe. I wish it was the old :1::K:, too.

Mostly poking with :3::K: and :3::P: right now, for basic pokes. If they end an attack with a move that's very safe however, they can easily step either of these. Not sure what my best option is yet for an anti-step. Kinda jealous of characters who have safe string enders. If you complete any of Hayate's strings it does appear they are all punishable.

Winning a lot more than I'm losing online right now, however, it's mostly gimmicks.

Don't mean to sound overly negative. Hoping to "lab" it up tomorrow and find some better stuff. Looks like I have no choice since nobody is posting a very long "here is a ton of information for the lazy players" guide ;)
Yea, PL made a really good one on DOACentral that I looked at for DOA4 when I first started competitive play. It helped a lot as did his and masters training videos for doa4. I'm sure he'll make a new one, and if not someone will, even if it's me after I study more frame data.
 

Madian

Active Member
:1::K: is unsafe. I wish it was the old :1::K:, too.

Mostly poking with :3::K: and :3::P: right now, for basic pokes. If they end an attack with a move that's very safe however, they can easily step either of these. Not sure what my best option is yet for an anti-step. Kinda jealous of characters who have safe string enders. If you complete any of Hayate's strings it does appear they are all punishable.

Winning a lot more than I'm losing online right now, however, it's mostly gimmicks.

Don't mean to sound overly negative. Hoping to "lab" it up tomorrow and find some better stuff. Looks like I have no choice since nobody is posting a very long "here is a ton of information for the lazy players" guide ;)

I tend agree with all of this. Right now I'm playing Hayate, Sarah, Christie and Kasumi. I win more with Hayate but it's mainly from abusing things I shouldn't get away with like his air kicks or pressuring someone who doesn't know that they can punish most of his tools.

I don't think he's bad. He seems really good at punishing but outside of that he's limited. He's unsafe but then again he's a lot safer than many of the cast.
 

TakedaZX

Well-Known Member
I tend agree with all of this. Right now I'm playing Hayate, Sarah, Christie and Kasumi. I win more with Hayate but it's mainly from abusing things I shouldn't get away with like his air kicks or pressuring someone who doesn't know that they can punish most of his tools.

I don't think he's bad. He seems really good at punishing but outside of that he's limited. He's unsafe but then again he's a lot safer than many of the cast.
That's litterally it... most of the time right now it's gimmick wind dash moves and lucky basically, like the opponent letting go of block too early and eating a wind dash launcher. Getting low grabbed from a 3P+K used to bait it out. The rest of the time you're busy knocking the enemy away.
 

synce

Well-Known Member
Hayate seems the same as ever... dash away, come in with :3::F+K:, go for grab or launcher. At least that's my experience online ;p
 

Nate

Active Member
Coulda sworn when the game first came out that Hayate's :7::P: was a high. Just today in training and playing, it says and indeed is a mid. That's a huge plus -- unless I'm mistaken and it's always been mid.
 

TakedaZX

Well-Known Member
Coulda sworn when the game first came out that Hayate's :7::P: was a high. Just today in training and playing, it says and indeed is a mid. That's a huge plus -- unless I'm mistaken and it's always been mid.
Most Critical Burst are mid anyway but it makes more sense for Hayate since he's always been a bit mid heavy. His old :7::P:(aka 4P+K in doa4), was high I believe, maybe that was the misconception.
 

Nate

Active Member
I did some patch-peeling and it indeed was landing high for me. So, stealth buff somewhere in there. No low-counters throwing off the throw vs. crit stun (etc) option.
 

TakedaZX

Well-Known Member
Sup guys. It's been about a month now. I want to know what everyone is thinking of Hayate at this point. Maybe giving your input on how he's sitting on the tier list in YOUR eyes(high, mid, low), what moves you like from him, what you don't like, what you want back, what should be safe or unsafe, etc.

My personal opinion is he's... good? I mained him in 4 like some others did and he was great in that one... mid heavy(Still), but if he got that stun game on you...you're in for a little pain. His mid-ranged game is still pretty hardcore. Up close he's... a lot less of a threat. I find that people spam mid punch counters become a problem for me though. Makes me have to utilize his pp strings a bit more, and also 9PP, which is great as a 2 in 1, but I love just stunning with it instead sometimes.

His low game is terrible. Though 2k can trip on counter hit, I miss it's follow up that was a mid kick. Also he lost 1kp and 1kk. 1kk is less of a problem because 1pk is virtually the same string but 1k was almost an unseeable low. Mix that up with 3k and you've got something going since the motion is similar. On top of I think he should have mixups like Ein did from 1k. I talk about it in my own topic with my pre-release thoughts on him from watching people like Allan P, and Chosen1 play him though I have altered the topic since then.

His new 1k is good in the stun game but useless to me stand alone, I'd like that move back in the wind dash for some long ranged stun game... hell I'd like to have his old wind dash(236f)back in, in general, because it was so good, especially 236f~66. Maybe they'll add it back.

Also all of his juggles are... well... exactly the same... There's nothing new. The newest thing is using 4k6k in a juggle as well as 66kkk(which use to be available off of his Mid kick hold launcher, still is but you've probably got better options.

The new raijin(aka Nakiryu from doa3), sucks... Ok ok it's got low damage, but it can wall splat, and if you don't finish it, you get a free super high launcher to a cool follow up like :4::K::6::K:, :6::6::K::K::K:. I think that he should get his old raijin back maybe with some circle inputs like Hayabusa's or just a simpler version of the other one(even though it wasn't that hard, xbox controllers suck).

Also 3H+KKP is apparently the best shit to hit the competitive scene in DOA5(even though it's better in 4 because it was delayable). People hate this. I don't know why. I've known how to deal with it for... like forever now, and on top of that you can punish at the first move by sidestepping and attacking or free stepping and attacking... anyway... it's good shit shenanigans, not as powerful shenanigans but still nice.

Wind Dash. Good Pressure with the high punch block breaker. I spam it on people who know what they're dealing with and if they don't know. Connect it with their block then have fun hitting anything you want right after that since it's +7.(Dat 3 frame jab).

The other followups seldom come out for me. The mid kick launcher has nice range and often times if you whiff the first kick, the second will connect because once people feel that whiff their reaction is to rush in... sometimes they're too far away ever still to get a juggle. It also doesn't jail if I remember correctly so if they stop blocking after the first kick, they can still get launched by the second one.

The shoryuken should've stayed a charge move, maybe a block breaker with significant advantage, like Eliot's 4F+K is, while retaining it's launch properties, and getting back it's flip properties on a full charged hit, I'd love that... but I can deal with it being in his wind dash for now, it still looks bad ass.

The grab should be an offensive hold honestly. It's not very useful, because most people like to test their fate and interrupt the dash. It's good tactics but It'd atleast make the grab more viable. It's a sweet ass Oboro animation, it should be useful.

His charged moves aren't great honestly. Everything reverts back to the elbow. 66P+K, 4P+K, 66PP, PP6P, PPPP, and 9PP. It's honestly frustrating. They're all +1 which doesn't do anything for you against characters like Kasumi(at best, you'll clash with her jab). I'll have to look more into it.

I think we all established 236k should be +5 instead of -5 and no guard break. It'd make an actual point of me using the move(especially since I end up buffering out a 9k most of the time, so it'd be an actual point to use it.

If you're not poking with 236p, shame on you. It's pretty safe. If you want them to stop locking up and blocking, throw this out, chances are they'll attempt to punish and fail.

Also 4KK, It's kind of a great move... Not sure if it measures up to 4F+K.

His SS K/F+K should stagger stun. It launches on all hits, and it's small enough of a launch that you can't get anything off of it except maybe a ground punch. I'd rather it stagger them away like Hitomi's 46K.

My opinion on 214k is that... it's much too slow to have a place in the fight other than as a move to scare someone. I don't think it tracks so, that's 32+frames of you vulnerable. It is +1, but what's the point if you don't land it. Same goes for 33KK. 33KK has applications in combos though.

The new 33T, is a nice animation, though I do miss the only one even still. I just wish they made him land correctly instead of making a whole new animation. Also since he now gets a guaranteed 7K off of his flip over grab(236T), he's got usage in all of them. Hopefully mix-ups become an option with that instead of just the guaranteed 72 damage.

Overall I can have fun with him... but I can't really say that I want to compete with him. He's lacking in the low game, his guard breaks don't really give him the option to put on any pressure since his 12 frame punishers are unsafe(unless you follow up 6p with k for -7, but still grab punishable), and he doesn't have 13 frame punishers, or 15. That really means you can't be flexible with punishing on him. You either have to interrupt with 7k, 6p(which if you screw up is unsafe on block and you can't delay 6pk anymore so you'll be stuck). Anything afte that is probably better punished with 236T~7k, or 8k if it's that unsafe. 8k launches on NH, so it makes sense to toss it out and get a pp6pk. PP6PK is probably gunna be your most damaging juggle. I think PP6PP might be a bit stronger though... i think by 2 points.
 

TakedaZX

Well-Known Member
So - it's been awhile - anyone have any goodies to share?
I'm counting on Perfect Legends guide to Hayate. I can understand Hayate's strong points but it's tough to utilize them. Like PPP(P)_PP6(P)_66P(P)_9P(P), all can be held to guard break for +1... but only +1. Against Kasumi this kinda levels the playing field for one move.

Also PL's tip on the 236T into 7k, is a guaranteed chunk of a damage for sure. Utilize that.

236p is usable. I use this atleast twice a match, whether it be to poke or for damage.

There's not much else to him. I think I've beaten a wakeup kick with one of his wind dash launchers.

His raijin ceiling version guarantees a is a great lead up to 3pp into a heavy launch.

he sucks.
 

Madian

Active Member
Hayate's stun game is solid and his punishes are solid. The only weakness Hayate really has is his lack of tracking moves. Besides that, with all the stuff I've uncovered about this game's mechanics he's at least mid tier if not high mid.
 

TakedaZX

Well-Known Member
Hayate's stun game is solid and his punishes are solid. The only weakness Hayate really has is his lack of tracking moves. Besides that, with all the stuff I've uncovered about this game's mechanics he's at least mid tier if not high mid.
He's actually got a lot of tracking moves... compared to someone like Eliot

Hayate has 9ish tracking moves and 19 ways that can link to one of those moves.

[ ] = Move that tracks.

:P::P:[:K:]_[:H+K:]_[SS:K:]
:P::P::6::P:[:K:]_:6::P:[:K:]
:P::P::2::K:[:K:]_BT [:1::K:]_:4::P:[:K:]:6::6::P:[:2::K:]_[:1_::P::K:]_:2:[:H+K:]
:6::6::P:[:K:]_:8:[:K:]
:8::P:[:K:]
:3_::P:[:P:]_:214::P::P:[:P:]
:3_::P:[:K:]_:214::P::P:[:K:]
:6::P+K::P: - This one strangely retracks very well if they side step really early. Ex. Someone side steps really early away from the move, and from far away, it will retrack once you press p and still go for them.
to show you... Eliot has 3 or 4ish tracking moves and only 4 ways into them. One of them isn't viable in combat though(4H+K)

:H+K:
:K::K:_:6::K::K:
:6::P::P::K:(all of his main strings link to this move)
:4::H+K:(Dat guard break with major advantage)
BT :K:
 

TakedaZX

Well-Known Member
So I've been screwing around with Hayate a bit more to figure out what I can do with him. As far as the new moves go, it's starting to make sense where they might have been trying to go with him... but it seems like a poorly done project.

Lets take his stun game for example. He is different from everyone. He carries deep stuns, but absolutely NO low game. 1p, 2p, and 2k don't stun on Natural Hit, and 1K isn't even a low. It's a tech crouching mid, an unsafe one at that. Why does this matter? This means he's got no way to open the opponent up. He does have 2H+K and all of it's variatns which are telegraphed very well unfortunately.

His high/mid game isn't great to begin with. To play Hayate, it's all about out thinking your opponent and whiff punishment. His guard breaks also play a vital role in his aggression. His regular guard break can be accessed from multiple strings or raw for +1. His wind dash guard break offers +7 which almost guarantees you to wind the next engagement. His last break 8pk leaves him at -5, go figure...

He's only got a few safe pokes like 9p, 6pk, 236p, 3k and 2p. Everything else is a risk honestly.

I PROPOSE that his old 1kp_1kk be brought back. 1k was vital move to Hayate's aggression. You could step in aggressively with a unseeable low. It'd also be nice if it had follow ups like Ein, but more ninja style instead. The current 1k can go to 1H+K.

Also 4H+K must come back. The move was great as a poke for -5. If he doesn't get that back then he'll be lacking in the ability to be aggressive, by a bit.

The DOA4 6H+K would be nice as well.

1pp should be chargeable for another +guard break.

To replace the wind dash kick, a similar kick to Helena's 7k, Kokoro, or Bayman's 7k could mask the move instead, but the same or maybe less disadvantage.

Also and alternative to 1k being moved to 1H+K could be giving him back his 236f dash, and all 5 options that he had from it.

This is my final and compressed list for him. Everything else that I've wanted will stay as wishes.
 

Madian

Active Member
So I've been screwing around with Hayate a bit more to figure out what I can do with him. As far as the new moves go, it's starting to make sense where they might have been trying to go with him... but it seems like a poorly done project.

Lets take his stun game for example. He is different from everyone. He carries deep stuns, but absolutely NO low game. 1p, 2p, and 2k don't stun on Natural Hit, and 1K isn't even a low. It's a tech crouching mid, an unsafe one at that. Why does this matter? This means he's got no way to open the opponent up. He does have 2H+K but that's telegraphed pretty well unfortunately.

His high/mid game isn't great to begin with. To play Hayate, it's all about out thinking your opponent and whiff punishment. His guard breaks also play a vital role in his aggression. His regular guard break can be accessed from multiple strings or raw for +1. His wind dash guard break offers +7 which almost guarantees you to wind the next engagement. His last break 8pk leaves him at -5, go figure...

He's only got a few safe pokes like 9p, 6pk, 236p, and 2p. Everything else is a risk honestly.

I PROPOSE that his old 1kp_1kk be brought back. 1k was vital move to Hayate's aggression. You could step in aggressively with a unseeable low. It'd also be nice if it had follow ups like Ein, but more ninja style instead. The current 1k can go to 1H+K.

Also 4H+K must come back. The move was great as a poke for -5. If he doesn't get that back then he'll be lacking in the ability to be aggressive, by a bit.

To replace the wind dash kick, a similar kick to Helena's 7k, Kokoro, or Bayman's 7k could mask the move instead, but the same or maybe less disadvantage.

Also and alternative to 1k being moved to 1H+K could be giving him back his 236f dash, and all 5 options that he had from it.

This is my final and compressed list for him. Everything else that I've wanted will stay as wishes.

These mirror some of my own findings. Hayate seems to be all about the stun game but you are stuck with mids and highs which makes him a bit predictable. I think beefing up the stun on 1P would help. Also keeping his sweeps at disadvantage but giving them a little knock back would help his offense a lot.
 

TakedaZX

Well-Known Member
These mirror some of my own findings. Hayate seems to be all about the stun game but you are stuck with mids and highs which makes him a bit predictable. I think beefing up the stun on 1P would help. Also keeping his sweeps at disadvantage but giving them a little knock back would help his offense a lot.
Yea, beefing up his sweeps is the simple answer to his lack of low game, or making his 2k or 1p have a stun on NH. I honest would rather it be his DOA3.1 1k brough back, with the Ein/Hitomi type follow ups. I just like that Idea cause it could also give him more combo diversity.

As much as I love the current 1k, it's out of place. It has to either be put back into the 236f version from DOA4 with all the other follow ups or it has to be put as 1H+K instead if it's gunna stay raw.

Just a little more insight. I started listening to Allan Paris, from his video that he posted in the Hayate section. I started playing a punishment game, but also I started working to outsmart the opponent. The less 3H+K I utilize for coming in, the better. His lows are still disgusting, and he needs 1k back... but... I mean I guess I can wait for the core of the game to be worked on first. Looking forward to it actually.

Still hating his stun game though, it's nothing impressive...
 

Nate

Active Member
Is Hayate expected to see at least some minor buffs in upcoming patch(s)? He's not crap-tier terrible now or anything -- but definitely could use some changes to round him out, as we all know.
 

TakedaZX

Well-Known Member
Is Hayate expected to see at least some minor buffs in upcoming patch(s)? He's not crap-tier terrible now or anything -- but definitely could use some changes to round him out, as we all know.
Yea... I don't think any real character changes are coming. They also said they're not going to do anything to effect any of the training everyone's been doing up until now. I wouldn't mind if it was just bringing back old things but that could also effect people that fight Hayate's. I'm gunna keep altering my list of changes though.
 
Since this is a new game with a bit of a new vision of it's characters, I'm okay with changes to existing characters. However, Hayate being the only character with a stance who doesn't have moves that cancel into that stance, is a glaring oversite.
 
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