Hayate impressions
- Thread starter Jin Masters
- Start date
OldsmoBuick
Member
I did a fairly thorough search, and Hayate was the only character that fit the description. If someone else knows different please -- and I mean please -- correct me on this one.
TakedaZX
Well-Known Member
That's really interesting. Because I asked for stance transitions into a similar slide like Kasumi's 3P+K. He has the moves to do it as well.
Situational Terminology
@ = Cancel into Wind Slide (Like Kasumi's)
% = Cancel into Wind Dash (Hayate's New One)
! = Warp animation like Kasumi's
cancelled into her stance* = Wind dashes under them turning around to come back for his attack
_ = Or
@_@_SS @@%!@_BT @%%*@%_Many other things would have to be readjusted... like it's tough to work with Hayate because he's given so so little. His damage isn't even that great, so people can't be like he hits hard. Hitomi's strongest move does more damage than all of his single strings, strikes, and charged moves on NH. Smh.
OldsmoBuick
Member
^^ Yup. They would have change some things around to accommodate wind-dash cancels but he should have them. It's the equivalent of 'making' Hayate a flawed character. When one player cannot do what everyone else with a stance can do, he's flawed by design. I'm not saying Hayate is not a good character. This just seems like a glaring oversite or -- even worse -- an attempt to hamstring a character for reasons unknown to those of us outside of TN. I don't even think Hayate would transcend all other fighters with the addition of wind-dash cancels, but should still have them.
TakedaZX
Well-Known Member
Yea, I might add some shit to this post... or even try to revive my old topic about changes wanted for Hayate. No one browses this forum or post to it at least. I'd love to at least get some talk going about buffing him, and tactics that people use with him, in his current state.
TakedaZX
Well-Known Member
I mean by adding the cancels it changes him a lot, but I think every Hayate player is willing to adjust just for him to be a better character even if he does become different. It's not like he's the same as he was anyway. Which the changes to the DOA Mechanics, he took a fall and he needs to be reassessed so that he can make it in this game.
Hayate definitely needs a few tweaks here and there. I'm not going to have ANY hopes what-so-ever tho. I've played DOA and Soul Calibur casually and my favorite character never got anything nice - only nerfed (SC - Raphael).
I do want to say however, one thing holding me back from going from S- to normal S is the ground game. It just seems inconsistent to me. Also, I always find myself in crap situations with Hayate. In DOA4, I really rushed my opponent down, using the well-known force techs + uncounterable setups. I can't keep that pressure in DOA5 right now. I'll knock someone down, they won't tech, so I'll try to land a ground attack, just to have it whiff and I'll eat a wakeup kick. And yes, I'll try really soon - and often land it, and chain land it if they insist on kicking -- but not always...
I do want to say however, one thing holding me back from going from S- to normal S is the ground game. It just seems inconsistent to me. Also, I always find myself in crap situations with Hayate. In DOA4, I really rushed my opponent down, using the well-known force techs + uncounterable setups. I can't keep that pressure in DOA5 right now. I'll knock someone down, they won't tech, so I'll try to land a ground attack, just to have it whiff and I'll eat a wakeup kick. And yes, I'll try
really soon - and often land it, and chain land it if they insist on kicking -- but not always...
TakedaZX
Well-Known Member
But even still, Ground OnlyHayate definitely needs a few tweaks here and there. I'm not going to have ANY hopes what-so-ever tho. I've played DOA and Soul Calibur casually and my favorite character never got anything nice - only nerfed (SC - Raphael).
I do want to say however, one thing holding me back from going from S- to normal S is the ground game. It just seems inconsistent to me. Also, I always find myself in crap situations with Hayate. In DOA4, I really rushed my opponent down, using the well-known force techs + uncounterable setups. I can't keep that pressure in DOA5 right now. I'll knock someone down, they won't tech, so I'll try to land a ground attack, just to have it whiff and I'll eat a wakeup kick. And yes, I'll try
isn't true oki. It's a weird ass grounded strike that sometimes is guaranteed and other times not. Also it doesn't really add pressure, only damage, because the person can still wake up kick if they want to which is the really annoying part...I really wonder what the results of the summit will hold...
Murakame
Active Member
I would rage so hard if that happened. You don't take good tools away; you take cheap tools away.
Murakame
Active Member
Hayate is a balanced character but I can assure you his gameplan is offensive. Nothing he has for whiff punishment is as effective as Ayane. If you try to turtle and defend with him you will get nowhere. IMO in order to find success with this character you have to be bold enough to take risks because he is unsafe. You've seen the way I play him. What I do is use spacing at a distance then when I see an opening I rush in or use 3H+K / 6P+K to get in and start my offense. Once you get in with Hayate these should be your goals:
1. Get a start on the stun game.
2. Set up 236T for free 72 points damage or start on the stun game.
This is because unlike Kasumi Hayate has no mixups. What he can do to you in close range combat is limited to his throws and guard breaks since his lows are ass. These are the moves you should use at close range:
PP: strings and guard breaks
9P: (safe and has a guard break follow up)
2P: This is the reset button because it is zero on hit. Your options are to defend or follow up with 6P if you want to try to get a stun. P if you want to continue pressure or grab if you think the opponent will still be blocking after this.
At mid range:
3K this is a safe poke.
2H+K (just outside of jab distance): this causes a small stun on NH and a decent stun on CH. Something I like to do after it is follow with a wind dash grab or 66T. It's a risky move but Takeda will tell you how many times I've nailed him with this setup. The alternative is 66P because it will beat out their attempt to attack you and if they block it you can go for the guard break follow up.
3H+K- Should be self explanatory.
6P+K P or T: P is a guard break with +7. T for people that try to sidestep P. I don't mess with the launchers because they are unsafe as fuck.
214P - This is a option. I rarely use it though. I don't know much about it.
Murakame
Active Member
I would disagree with that because while he has better range than most characters it's not better than what he can do to you up close. At long range he has:
3H+K- Not very fast and is telegraphed. People hold this on reaction so you can really only use it for whiff punishment if you aren't being ballsy. Stuns on hit.
214PPP-Cant speak on this but it launches on normal hit and is unsafe on block.
214K- plus 2 on block but like 3H+K is a mid kick, so people will hold this too.
These moves are definitely serviceable but not enough to make a gameplan around IMO. Compare those to Ayane's:
11K - fast evasive tracking move.
236K - fast long range whiff punisher
11P - fast evasive guard break for +5
33KKK or 33KK2K (from BT) - low hitting tracking kicks that stun.
Her rolling throw and rolling jump kick from BT.
3H+K - good range guaranteed 94 damage combo on counter hit if you are able to hit with the 4K BT launcher.
The reason I say his whiff punishment game is not as good as Ayane's is because he cannot win games by forcing people to whiff moves like she can nor are his options better than hers. If you try to play him that way you are relying on people making mistakes because he isn't evasive and lacks fast ranged options so he cannot bait and punish moves.
Up close / mid range Hayate has:
236T - guaranteed 72 points of damage.
236P- mid range whiff punisher.
41236T-unbreakable combo throw that launches (Imagine what he could do with this on the home stage. I should test some stuff out.) Inflicts 97 points of damage on hi-counter when you complete the throw and slams people into the environment for additional damage.
9P - Stuns on normal and counter hit. 9PP is a 2 in 1 that cannot be held or evaded in any way when the opponent is stunned.
3PP - Unholdable stun. 3P alone is hold bait that allows him to get 97 points damage off of Hi-Counter Nakiryu.
PP string guard breaks - +1 isnt really all that great IMO but its something. You can use them to work in 236T or stun / continue pressure.
2H+K - The opponent has to respect your options after this stun because its like +8 at the least. So almost everything you do will beat them out.
3K - safe on block and hit. stuns on counter hit. Really good move to start the stun game with.
His wind dash P and T.
You can see that Hayate has way more options up close / mid range than he does at long range. Hayate excels when his opponent is stunned. He hits hard without having to CB and all of his juggles and throws slam people into the wall so there is a chance you can inflict even more damage when you have your opponent cornered. If you try to play a defensive whiff punishment based Hayate you neglect this strategy and most of these moves which will neuter his damage output because you are busy trying to land counter hit 3H+K, 214PPP or 214K. With the occasional 236T throw punish when your opponent does something unsafe.
EDIT: I'm not saying you should be blitzing people with Hayate either. You have to play a controlled rushdown game with him. You move in when the opportunity presents itself and after you complete combos give yourself some distance and repeat the process. He is too unsafe and has poor mixups so he cant use a pure rushdown strategy.
Zeo
Well-Known Member
I discovered a guaranteed back turn combo with Hayate, some Lei-Fang like stuff.
3k > 7p > 3k > 33k > 8p > pp6pk which does about 101 points of guaranteed damage. Or if you switch up the launch you can get around 103 points of damage.
However 3k is 14 frames and 236F+P (Grab that gets your opponent's back turned) leaves you at +9 which only guarantees 6p. If it was buffed up to +11 he would get a a guaranteed 100+ damage combo off of a 7 frame throw. It may seem cheap but compare it to Lei Fang's wall grab and kick holds that give her the same damage, it's pretty fair and would actually make Hayate scary to block.
3k > 7p > 3k > 33k > 8p > pp6pk which does about 101 points of guaranteed damage. Or if you switch up the launch you can get around 103 points of damage.
However 3k is 14 frames and 236F+P (Grab that gets your opponent's back turned) leaves you at +9 which only guarantees 6p. If it was buffed up to +11 he would get a a guaranteed 100+ damage combo off of a 7 frame throw. It may seem cheap but compare it to Lei Fang's wall grab and kick holds that give her the same damage, it's pretty fair and would actually make Hayate scary to block.
Allan Paris
Well-Known Member
At the end of the day all you're going to be doing with Hayate is; stun:launch:stun:throw. The most basic gameplay of DOA is what Hayate is doing. Does he have a decent toy or two at his disposal, yes. Though it is not enough to get him over that hump when playing against characters that can work the new system mechanics freely. Hayate can compete but you'll be fighting tooth and nail against someone who knows what's up with him or against a character that excels in the new system mechanics.
I do like that people are still trying with him. I hope you guys are able to find something super amazing with him.
Also, make good use of his command SS, it's one of the few real SS in the game. It does help him a lot and it's nice that punch from it is semi-safe.
I do like that people are still trying with him. I hope you guys are able to find something super amazing with him.
Also, make good use of his command SS, it's one of the few real SS in the game. It does help him a lot and it's nice that punch from it is semi-safe.
I like him. Just feel he's limited & struggles. I been messing around with him lately just haven't had a lot of match up experience. And with the experience I did have the times I used him, it was good, but I may not use him competitively. That's just how I feel now. I really want to tie him in with the 2 I use now but it's in the air for me. I feel like he doesn't have a lot of tools like he used to.
@AP are you saying you're dropping him from your fold?
@AP are you saying you're dropping him from your fold?
TakedaZX
Well-Known Member
Same story for everyone here. I've learned how to make use of his wind dash, by making good guesses and forcing lock ups to get his Wind Dash K, which is the same launch height no matter what (except on backturned opponents which nets you a ppp, 33kk for the best damage. By god, DO NOT WASTE THIS LAUNCHER ON A CRITICAL BURST, GO FOR THE WIND DASH UPPERCUT OR 8K.
Other than that, you're rushing down with him like AP does, using p, 2p, and his special side step punch to protect yourself after getting your 3k, 6p, 9p or 1p, blocked. I don't really understand why Allan doesn't use the wind dash moves though, but it's not like he doesn't merc without it. I'd say it's just cause he doesn't need it so there's no need to take the unnecessary risk. If you feel the same way you should follow suit.
I doubt it. But Kasumi is just better. Pai's nice too.
If Hayate gets a black version of his 4p costume from DOA4 or his 2p costume from DOA4, I'm tossing aside Eliot (again), to use him.