Jann Lee changes

[RyuJin]

Giving Jan Lee a throw in DS is too much. I mean what if you're stuck in the corner against that?
If I side step he'll grab me
If i duck he'll kick me in the face.
If i block he'll grab me..
And if i do nothing he'll kick me in the face.
He's already good enough since he's anti air and grab. The only problem is his mix up game. He relies too much on highs. His 3k4kp or 1pp should at least GB. I do agree on speeding up his Dragon counter. For DS if you're talking about canceling the ds then that's ok since everyone else can cancel their stance

How would giving him a throw from stance be to much?

Helena can throw in stance. She also has tracking move/s out of stance. Jann does not.
Hayabusa can throw from stance. He also has a tracking move while in stance. He can also teleport.
Hayate has a throw in stance (wind dash).
Lei Fang has a throw while in stance.
Rig has a throw in stance. He also has tracking moves while in stance.
Christie has a throw in stance. She also has a tracking moves in stance.
Brad Wong has a throw in stance.
Sarah has a throw in stance. She also has tracking moves.
Both Kasumi's have throws in stance.

Also I'd like to bring up that Rig, Sarah, Hayabusa, and maybe Helena??? (maybe wrong on Helena) can get into stance with frame advantage on block.

Not trying to be funny but I don't see how being in the corner vs Jann Lee is any worse then the other characters that have throws from their stances. Could you give more details on your reasoning?

 

[Darkslay]

How would giving him a throw from stance be to much?

Helena can throw in stance. She also has tracking move/s out of stance. Jann does not.
Hayabusa can throw from stance. He also has a tracking move while in stance. He can also teleport.
Hayate has a throw in stance (wind dash).
Lei Fang has a throw while in stance.
Rig has a throw in stance. He also has tracking moves while in stance.
Christie has a throw in stance. She also has a tracking moves in stance.
Brad Wong has a throw in stance.
Sarah has a throw in stance. She also has tracking moves.
Both Kasumi's have throws in stance.

Also I'd like to bring up that Rig, Sarah, Hayabusa, and maybe Helena??? (maybe wrong on Helena) can get into stance with frame advantage on block.

Not trying to be funny but I don't see how being in the corner vs Jann Lee is any worse then the other characters that have throws from their stances. Could you give more details on your reasoning?

I agree with @RyuJin, Jann Lee not having a throw from stance is unfair.

Simply because he becomes the fastest character doesn't mean he has to be unsafe and not have any tracking moves, not to mention the stance can't be cancelled.

We're only asking for a small damaging throw that could make people think twice about holding when he's in DS, its completely fair from where i see it, Rig and Lei Fang get full reset throws from their stance and Helena gets a launch.

His corner game wouldn't be affected since he can't enter DS with frame advantage, nor after a Dragon Gunner against the wall.

 

[Gurimmjaw]

Agree with both @RyuJin and @Darkslay. Jann Lee having a throw in dragon stance is fair when other characters have throws not to mention have tracking moves in their stances along with strings, while Jann Lee has no throws in dragon stance and nothing tracks in the stance either, so a throw would not hurt.

We are not asking for a high damaging throw and just a small change for ds which is not bad when you see what characters like Helena and Rig can do in their stance.

 

[RyuJin]

What they can do is give him his tag throw animation (the Lei Fang tag throw when they both hit the opponent a few times then punches them away.) I'd like the ending of it to change though. Give us +3 with them standing next to us (low damage 10 ~ 20 on normal).

If they don't want to do that then make it so that the throw has knock back(a bit more damage like 20~30 normal hit before a wall) and we can recover fast enough to follow up. Again I'm only +3 from the throw. Keeping him in stance will limit his options which maybe needed for balance. If the throw is fast you can fuzzy guard side step to deal with it on defense. I'm not saying the throw SHOULD be fast just saying. The problem you could run into is if Jann Lee delays his options. I think 10 frames is a fair speed for the throw. You CAN make it fast like 5 frames long as you can break it.

 

[Darkslay]

What they can do is give him his tag throw animation (the Lei Fang tag throw when they both hit the opponent a few times then punches them away.) I'd like the ending of it to change though. Give us +3 with them standing next to us (low damage 10 ~ 20 on normal).

If they don't want to do that then make it so that the throw has knock back(a bit more damage like 20~30 normal hit before a wall) and we can recover fast enough to follow up. Again I'm only +3 from the throw. Keeping him in stance will limit his options which maybe needed for balance. If the throw is fast you can fuzzy guard side step to deal with it on defense. I'm not saying the throw SHOULD be fast just saying. The problem you could run into is if Jann Lee delays his options. I think 10 frames is a fair speed for the throw. You CAN make it fast like 5 frames long as you can break it.

We were actually talking with @Gurimmjaw about the throw before, we said that the best thing they could do would be to give him 236T T from DS, there's various reasons for this.

- TN wouldn't have to bother making new animations or giving it new properties, everything is already there.

- The throw would do great damage but it could still be broken and leave him at -3, pretty fair trade.

- Jann Lee's command list states that 236T against a wall is an OH, but it isn't, maybe they could apply that property in the DS variant.

 

[MaxiKilla]

How would giving him a throw from stance be to much?

Helena can throw in stance. She also has tracking move/s out of stance. Jann does not.
Hayabusa can throw from stance. He also has a tracking move while in stance. He can also teleport.
Hayate has a throw in stance (wind dash).
Lei Fang has a throw while in stance.
Rig has a throw in stance. He also has tracking moves while in stance.
Christie has a throw in stance. She also has a tracking moves in stance.
Brad Wong has a throw in stance.
Sarah has a throw in stance. She also has tracking moves.
Both Kasumi's have throws in stance.

Also I'd like to bring up that Rig, Sarah, Hayabusa, and maybe Helena??? (maybe wrong on Helena) can get into stance with frame advantage on block.

Not trying to be funny but I don't see how being in the corner vs Jann Lee is any worse then the other characters that have throws from their stances. Could you give more details on your reasoning?

Well first Jan lee has the DG.

Second he has a wall reset given the option to either keep his opponent standing or leave them on sit down.

Third is his stand up throw and yes some people have it but not everyone.

Then there's the dragon stance. No tracking but it's great for stun and guessing game.

Last is his 44p. Which gives him a back turn and a chance to reset with p6p.

Jan lee is a fast character and he's anti grab. Against a GOOD Jan player being in a corner would be bad since he's given many reset options. Like I said before canceling the DS is ok.

 

[Jefffcore]

Busa is forced to go into stance in most cases. Even when he's not at disadvantage the only options that can't be beat by 2p are unsafe. Jann doesn't need to go into stance; if you get a stun don't hold 4 and throw.

Kasumi's got a mid kick and a high that are both unsafe, then the flip kick. I wanna look at a few things, but I won't be home till tomorrow. I think Kasumi needs that throw more than Jann does.

Tracking is irrelevant. If Jann Is going into stance on block he's at enough disadvantage to be jabbed. That's what 66k and any related string is for.

 

[KING JAIMY]

I feel like Jann Lee could use a throw from DS but they shouldn't make it OP. A reset throw would be fine, I think.

I was thinking of something along the lines of Rig's Bending Stance Throw. Little damage, no guaranteed follow-ups, and only +10 frame advantage.

 

[8ml4]

I don t understand why you want a throw in stance.

Give me an exemple for use throw in Dragon stance please?

 

[KING JAIMY]

I don t understand why you want a throw in stance.

Give me an exemple for use throw in Dragon stance please?

To give Jann Lee a tracking option from DS. I mean, look at Rig: He has linear moves, tracking moves, a reset throw AND the ability to exit his stance by pressing H. Jann Lee only has strikes and they can all be sidestepped. Also his only safe moves from DS are DS P and DS 6K.

If a throw is not possible, then I suggest giving Jann Lee the option to exit his Dragon Stance manually by pressing H.

 

[Darkslay]

I don t understand why you want a throw in stance.

Give me an exemple for use throw in Dragon stance please?

A good example is after a Dragon Gunner, the Bnb setup is to go for 6H+K into stance, from there you have your 3 way mix up, however, people lose fear of holding since they know a throw can't come out of DS, so they take a guess, and most of the time unfortunately, they'll guess right.
It would just be a way to give Jann Lee a better way to keep momentum and make the opponent think twice about holding against him, everyone already knows one of the character's weak points is his mix up, so i don't see why he shouldn't have a proper mix up tool from his personal stance.

I think Rig is the most ridiculous in that sense, he might have the best stance in the game honestly, other than Ayane, but that's because she's essentially 2 characters. Rig gets tacking moves, moves that can leave him at advantage, lows, a reset throw, a sit down stun for a guaranteed launch, the ability to feint (6K4), crushes and an attack that can leave you back turned. Way too much.

 

[Jefffcore]

I don t understand why you want a throw in stance.

Give me an exemple for use throw in Dragon stance please?

A throw in stance would allow punishment of people holding once you've got them in stun. As it is now you have to commit to a high, mid punch, or mid kick if you go into stance.

The question is what the numbers are if someone low holds under his punch option.

If it's possible to hold under the high options safely, then the guess is essentially the same whether you have a throw or not.

Assuming that isn't possible, all options would force the opponent into a standing hold, creating a 50/50 between holds and attacks. The attacker would have better odds because they can choose whatever attack they want, where the defender has to either hold or do nothing.

As it is now the odds are closer to equal.

 

[8ml4]

You mustn t use dragon stance if you haven t open the guard because dragon stance is UNSAFE, you can t press in block.

Dragon stance break your better option....

if you want grap, don t use dragon stance and confirm for Throw

 

[Darkslay]

A throw in stance would allow punishment of people holding you've got them in stun. As it is now you have to commit to a high, mid punch, or mid kick if you go into stance.

The question is what the numbers are if someone low holds under his punch option.

If it's possible to hold under the high options safely, then the guess is essentially the same whether you have a throw or not.

Assuming that isn't possible, all options would force the opponent into a standing hold, creating a 50/50 between holds and attacks. The attacker would have better odds because they can choose whatever attack they want, where the defender has to either hold or do nothing.

Good question. The numbers are as follows.

- DS P gets low held, it leaves you anywhere between +2 to +19, leaving him able to punish with 2T or even 1T.

- DS 6P+K gets low held, it leaves you from -10 to -12, still, i14 moves will get stuffed sometimes.

I know this data because this situation presents itself more often that you think, its not a good idea to low hold, i can tell you that much.

 

[Jefffcore]

I'm guessing the +2 is from something like 6H+K? If he had a throw I wouldn't say holding low is a bad Idea if +2 was the worst case scenario. It means he's gotta stick to mids and throws if he's scared of the low hold.

But like I said, he could just not hold 4 and throw, or do another attack that isn't in DS. Lol

 

[MaxiKilla]

If you're worried about sidestep then use 1p+k. It's safe and keep a good distance. Using this your opponent will have to come straight at you. The DS is for bait and pressure. Jeet kune do is all about fast strikes and counter attacks. Just like Jan lee , Jacky doesn't have a grab in his stance.(33k does not count)

 

[Darkslay]

I'm guessing the +2 is from something like 6H+K? If he had a throw I wouldn't say holding low is a bad Idea if +2 was the worst case scenario. It means he's gotta stick to mids and throws if he's scared of the low hold.

But like I said, he could just not hold 4 and throw, or do another attack that isn't in DS. Lol

Nope, it comes from the critical hold system, meaning how fast the opponent holds low, you can get that advantage from a 6P even.

 

[Lulu]

If you're worried about sidestep then use 1p+k. It's safe and keep a good distance. Using this your opponent will have to come straight at you. The DS is for bait and pressure. Jeet kune do is all about fast strikes and counter attacks. Just like Jan lee , Jacky doesn't have a grab in his stance.(33k does not count)

Before VF5 Sarah Bryant's style was classified as Jeet Kune Do just like Jacky.... and she has a strike Throw from both her Forward Slide and Flamingo Stance...... but unlike Jacky, her's will still work if it hits a Blocking opponent.

Unfortunately all that is meaningless since Sarah's style is no longer classified as Jeet Kune Do.

I just wanted to share a fun piece of Trivia.

I think thats about as close as one can get to a JKD Practioner being able to throw from a Signature Stance.

 

[Jefffcore]

Nope, it comes from the critical hold system, meaning how fast the opponent holds low, you can get that advantage from a 6P even.

Oh, ok. Forget what I said then.

 

[MaxiKilla]

A good example is after a Dragon Gunner, the Bnb setup is to go for 6H+K into stance, from there you have your 3 way mix up, however, people lose fear of holding since they know a throw can't come out of DS, so they take a guess, and most of the time unfortunately, they'll guess right.
It would just be a way to give Jann Lee a better way to keep momentum and make the opponent think twice about holding against him, everyone already knows one of the character's weak points is his mix up, so i don't see why he shouldn't have a proper mix up tool from his personal stance.

I think Rig is the most ridiculous in that sense, he might have the best stance in the game honestly, other than Ayane, but that's because she's essentially 2 characters. Rig gets tacking moves, moves that can leave him at advantage, lows, a reset throw, a sit down stun for a guaranteed launch, the ability to feint (6K4), crushes and an attack that can leave you back turned. Way too much.

Ah okay I see your point. I'm beginning to understand.(not) Unlike Jan, rig needs his stance. Giving Lee a throw in DS is still crazy. I don't agree on giving him 236T T or a reset grab. I can stick with what ryujin said about knock back grab or 214T for more balance.