Jann Lee changes

#61
rising 4 6 P should be a GB, that's his most difficult move to perform and it's unsafe,or atleast make it a bit more safe
That move is more of an surprise thing. (Bait) I don't see how it's difficult to do.

Jann lee is very good like that, he is fast, damage are awesome, hold mid p and mid k are crazy. Remove dragon stance and reset his OH 18 frames and it s perfect.

Dragon stance is shit, its good ONLY next wall after throw, it would be useful if DS 6k would a critical burst
No he needs at least some sort of fake out for ds. People can sidestep it but the duration is quite long. So if someone try to sidestep counter I can quickly hit p, k, or 6p and hit them before their hit connects which is why I don't see why he needs a throw in his stance.

Another issue with JL is he has moves that are unsafe and or have a lot of recovery frames. The recovery frames seems to be linked with guard stun (from what little test I've done.) Take Mila's 6pp. It is -11 on block but the recovery is 18 frames. By the time you block it you are to late. If you were not expecting it you will have very little chance at punishing it. Now take JL's 66k. -4 BUT the recovery is 27 (57 on hit lololololololololololololololz.) Due to it being 27 frames you have time to "feel" the fact that it was blocked. Even though it is safe it gives the opponent time to know that they blocked it and if they have a counter play to it they will use it. Where as if you block Mila's 6pp...you have little to know time to react.

JL has a lot of moves with a ton of guard stun. This makes it easier to react to him. Which in turn makes him easier to deal with. DOA is played at a very fast pace. JL lacks mix up (to be fair once stunned you can go crazy.) and has a lot of guard stun on many of his moves. This makes it so unless the connection is laggy (only applies online) he cannot just do string and make things happen. This also only matters when you are fighting good/knowledgeable players.

I do feel that they are trying to balance him seeing as he has a few safe options like 66k, P+K, and 236p (I know 236p can be punished by some characters.) Even 246p is only -9. For the damage it does it could be a lot more unsafe. Sadly if they are not going to remove some recovery on a few moves (Guard stun really...I just think that guard stun is linked to recovery) then maybe making them a bit safer would be a nice buff. One can only dream though lol.
His strikes are there so he can adapt. That's why his close hits were buffed.
So basically using the wrong strike at the wrong time is no reward. If he was like Akira then I could understand the reason for recovery. For some reason you can't tech a dragon kick. I don't see any balance in that.
 
#63
because the fucking taunt animation plays dude
I didn't understand at first on what you meant. I talking about tech trap. You can't tech DK when getting up before it lands.

I also think his p2p and 6p2p should speed up because his BT moves are faster. For people who want safety 3P+k shake should be decreased or sped up because it's very slow and unsafe on block. Turn his 46k into a GB too improve his zoning game.
 
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#64
Not sure if anyone favors JL close hit potential anymore but it would be good for his 3kp and 1pp to become a close hit especially since 3kp can track and it's unsafe. Adding this to 1pp would be very useful against helena players. I don't mess with these moves that much but if this would make him too op I understand.
 
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Darkslay

Well-Known Member
Dragon's Gate
Main Character
Jann Lee
PSN ID
Darkslayxz
#65
Not sure if anyone favors JL close hit potential anymore but it would be good for his 3kp and 1pp to become a close hit especially since 3kp can track and it's unsafe. Adding this to 1pp would be very useful against helena players. I don't mess with these moves that much but if this would make him too op I understand.
I wouldn't really call those buffs nor nerfs, there's not really any use for 3KP and 1PP other than in stun, 3K4K already tracks and its safe, also, no, it wouldn't be useful against Helena since its i20, you already got 2P and 4P to deal with her.

JL already got pretty good close hit buffs in LR.
 
#66
Not sure if anyone favors JL close hit potential anymore but it would be good for his 3kp and 1pp to become a close hit especially since 3kp can track and it's unsafe. Adding this to 1pp would be very useful against helena players. I don't mess with these moves that much but if this would make him too op I understand.
I second this motion.

I'd also like TN to do something to make Jan Lee's :2_::4::6::P: more usable. Perhaps a nice Relauncing :2::P: would help. ;)
 
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#68
I wouldn't really call those buffs nor nerfs, there's not really any use for 3KP and 1PP other than in stun, 3K4K already tracks and its safe, also, no, it wouldn't be useful against Helena since its i20, you already got 2P and 4P to deal with her.

JL already got pretty good close hit buffs in LR.
Yes close hits that don't track. I do give props to that 4p though. You right about 1pp but it picks up Helena from bko. Delay that and she goes flying helpless across the stage. I lost all hope for 2p. I'd rather spam 2k than 2p.
 
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Darkslay

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Dragon's Gate
Main Character
Jann Lee
PSN ID
Darkslayxz
#69
I second this motion.

I'd also like TN to do something to make Jan Lee's :2_::4::6::P: more usable. Perhaps a nice Relauncing :2::P: would help. ;)
246P is already required for max damage on some of his combos, plus the move is mostly used to punish lows.
Give his :2_::4::6::P: (and possibly :236::P:) a wider range for Close Hit so that it will be easier to land a Close Hit after :4::K::K::P:. Currently it's really hard to land Close Hits with those moves.
You can hit 246P after 4KKP no problem in an invisible wall, in fact, you need to if you want to get max damage, 236P is actually fairly easy to land, and hey, if you don't think you'll land it, dash forward and go for P+K instead, 1 less point of damage. That's why those moves got the close hit and damage buff in LR.
Yes close hits that don't track. I do give props to that 4p though. You right about 1pp but it picks up Helena from bko. Delay that and she goes flying helpless across the stage. I lost all hope for 2p. I'd rather spam 2k than 2p.
What are you talking about? 236P and BT 7P track, both which were buffed in LR. Why would you chose 1P instead of 2P? 1P is only useful in stun and the spacing game, and if 1PP is blocked, you're eating a hard punish.
 
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#70
246P is already required for max damage on some of his combos, plus the move is mostly used to punish lows.

You can hit 246P after 4KKP no problem in an invisible wall, in fact, you need to if you want to get max damage, 236P is actually fairly easy to land, and hey, if you don't think you'll land it, dash forward and go for P+K instead, 1 less point of damage. That's why those moves got the close hit and damage buff in LR.

What are you talking about? 236P and BT 7P track, both which were buffed in LR. Why would you chose 1P instead of 2P? 1P is only useful in stun and the spacing game, and if 1PP is blocked, you're eating a hard punish.
Both of those High P strikes can simply be ducked or sometimes sidestepped.(Christie) It's bad enough that JL shakes even when he doesn't hit anything. Wait so close hit buffs were only there to make 4kkp useful?

Yea 1pp is unsafe but only on block. You can just do 1p and stop. Unsafe but only against high attacks unless he chains. Chain options are better and 2p gives you no advantage. Same for JL 1pp but during 1pp he crouches and avoid highs. If timed right you won't get hit by highs and be able to counter. Distance works too but it doesn't track which is why i prefer it more close up. I'm not saying I prefer 1pp in every situation but close hit would still be nice.

The only middle strike that can tracks is 46k.(unsafe) 3kp is good because 3k is safe on block and can chain to p for counter. Putting a close hit on that would improve his mid game.
 

Darkslay

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Dragon's Gate
Main Character
Jann Lee
PSN ID
Darkslayxz
#71
Both of those High P strikes can simply be ducked or sometimes sidestepped.(Christie) It's bad enough that JL shakes even when he doesn't hit anything. Wait so close hit buffs were only there to make 4kkp useful?
You'll never have someone duck your 236P unless its the running version, its a i13 poke, that tracks, has long range and its only -6, its one of the character's best tools, and the fact its so underutilized its just criminal. Christie's JAK can SS it because it crushes highs, Hayate and Maries's 8/2P+Ks will still get tracked on their active frames. And no, now you have a stronger combo against heavies after a bound and his running mixup is better because of it, not to mention, now his low punish damage is really good as he can get a free 78 points of damage against a low that's more than -13. 4KKP was already useful, it gave good oki and its a launch after a natural combo.
Yea 1pp is unsafe but only on block. You can just do 1p and stop. Unsafe but only against high attacks unless he chains. Chain options are better and 2p gives you no advantage. Same for JL 1pp but during 1pp he crouches and avoid highs. If timed right you won't get hit by highs and be able to counter. Distance works too but it doesn't track which is why i prefer it more close up. I'm not saying I prefer 1pp in every situation but close hit would still be nice.
If you free cancel 1P you're -9 on hit and -12 on block, the opponent can catch on to it, there's no need to press buttons after 1P since he doesn't have a low off of it, no matter how much you delay it, you'll either get punished or counter poked since you're negative either way. 1P is also not an instant crush, 2P can be used to poke and interrupt strings, it can't be used in neutral anymore, but its still a better option than 1P up close.
The only middle strike that can tracks is 46k.(unsafe) 3kp is good because 3k is safe on block and can chain to p for counter. Putting a close hit on that would improve his mid game.
46K is not unsafe at max range, same with SS K, you also have 4H+K and the follow up, both which are safe and track, again, 3KP is only good in stun or maybe in a wakeup situation, 3KK and 3K4K are still better options.
 
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#72
You'll never have someone duck your 236P unless its the running version, its a i13 poke, that tracks, has long range and its only -6, its one of the character's best tools, and the fact its so underutilized its just criminal. Christie's JAK can SS it because it crushes highs, Hayate and Maries's 8/2P+Ks will still get tracked on their active frames. And no, now you have a stronger combo against heavies after a bound and his running mixup is better because of it, not to mention, now his low punish damage is really good as he can get a free 78 points of damage against a low that's more than -13. 4KKP was already useful, it gave good oki and its a launch after a natural combo.

If you free cancel 1P you're -9 on hit and -12 on block, the opponent can catch on to it, there's no need to press buttons after 1P since he doesn't have a low off of it, no matter how much you delay it, you'll either get punished or counter poked since you're negative either way. 1P is also not an instant crush, 2P can be used to poke and interrupt strings, it can't be used in neutral anymore, but its still a better option than 1P up close.

46K is not unsafe at max range, same with SS K, you also have 4H+K and the follow up, both which are safe and track, again, 3KP is only good in stun or maybe in a wakeup situation, 3KK and 3K4K are still better options.
Yea I see it. Forget what I said about 1pp. I still think spacing with it isn't ok since it's i20 to i28 with no track. Anyone could see 1p from a distance but the reach does beat his 236P and 46k. Not worth the effort I guess.
 

TakedaZX

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Twilight Town
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TakedaZX
#73
I'm hella late but I don't think that a dragon stance throw is reasonable. It'd definitely be cool as fuck but unfortunately it'd be too powerful... even if it's only to track side step it creates a more deadly stun game unless it's simply like a 1 hit reset throw like Hitomi 6T that goes right back into dragon stance at low plus... And even then... I still don't like it. And he'll maybe that's what y'all want but i'd much rather see his dragon stance parry catch mids in general and low punches only and have the 6P track to help his pressure game in general.

Then give the reset throw as a option from neutral as maybe 4T to still let him have that option to pressure into dragon stance without requiring the wall.

Same difference but a different commitment.
 

Darkslay

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Dragon's Gate
Main Character
Jann Lee
PSN ID
Darkslayxz
#74
I'm hella late but I don't think that a dragon stance throw is reasonable. It'd definitely be cool as fuck but unfortunately it'd be too powerful... even if it's only to track side step it creates a more deadly stun game unless it's simply like a 1 hit reset throw like Hitomi 6T that goes right back into dragon stance at low plus... And even then... I still don't like it. And he'll maybe that's what y'all want but i'd much rather see his dragon stance parry catch mids in general and low punches only and have the 6P track to help his pressure game in general.

Then give the reset throw as a option from neutral as maybe 4T to still let him have that option to pressure into dragon stance without requiring the wall.

Same difference but a different commitment.
Problem here is that DS is not a pressure tool to begin with, at least not in neutral.
A reset throw is irrelevant when the Gunner already exists, the original idea for a throw from DS is to get damage from the opponent's mistake, not to reset the situation into another guess, like I said, that's what the Gunner is.

I suggested 236T to be possible from DS as a simple T input, that way the throw is i17 and 2 parts, so you can break it. Completely fair. DS mix-ups have become stagnant, anything other than DS K and DS 6P+K is too easily staggerable and there a lot of characters with strong mid kick holds. Having a tool to potentially punish those characters and even things out, shouldn't be that difficult to do.
 
#75
Problem here is that DS is not a pressure tool to begin with, at least not in neutral.
A reset throw is irrelevant when the Gunner already exists, the original idea for a throw from DS is to get damage from the opponent's mistake, not to reset the situation into another guess, like I said, that's what the Gunner is.

I suggested 236T to be possible from DS as a simple T input, that way the throw is i17 and 2 parts, so you can break it. Completely fair. DS mix-ups have become stagnant, anything other than DS K and DS 6P+K is too easily staggerable and there a lot of characters with strong mid kick holds. Having a tool to potentially punish those characters and even things out, shouldn't be that difficult to do.
Yeah honestly he could use a new move or two and this would be pretty cool
 

TakedaZX

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Twilight Town
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TakedaZX
#76
Problem here is that DS is not a pressure tool to begin with, at least not in neutral.
A reset throw is irrelevant when the Gunner already exists, the original idea for a throw from DS is to get damage from the opponent's mistake, not to reset the situation into another guess, like I said, that's what the Gunner is.

I suggested 236T to be possible from DS as a simple T input, that way the throw is i17 and 2 parts, so you can break it. Completely fair. DS mix-ups have become stagnant, anything other than DS K and DS 6P+K is too easily staggerable and there a lot of characters with strong mid kick holds. Having a tool to potentially punish those characters and even things out, shouldn't be that difficult to
Let me stop you right there.

You forget DS jab. It opens up for damn near every launcher in his arsenal and CB.

So the real 50/50 is DS jab vs DS K which does give every viable launcher in his arsenal even though 33P is only viable at max threshold though you can still get 63 by doing P+K on stun to launch.

Don't get me wrong I see that all these characters have throws in their stances...

You know what they don't have? A Dragon Gunner.

You know what else they dont have? An offensive hold in general.

They also don't have a high that skips threshold by guaranteeing that same mid kick you said always gets held. It SKIPS THRESHOLD. FOR FREE.

That's also why DS 6P+K is restricted to returning to Dragon Stance. They only want you to have DS K because the launcher itself is restricted on damage potential.

See first things first you have to understand the synergy of the stance. Everything is there for a reason and if any move overlaps that other move in utility then it becomes useless.

DS P is fastest and gets a good stun for his decent launchers plus it's safe.

DS K is a better stun quality in general and opens up for all main launchers but becomes the most obvious choice and as you said many characters have counters for this in their advanced holds or just hold properties in general.

DS 6P covers both options as the least likely to be used but allows stun game to continue like normal and gets a launcher too plus it requires fastest hold/slow escape to avoid being caught by his 9K.

DS P+K is a CB... And its stun quality is really good so he can launch with his decent launchers except 33P.

DS 6P+K is godsend.

If you open up with it it's unsafe but gives you the option to use any follow up including CBs normal stun.

If you use it as an immediate follow up, you beat all mid holds and slow escape then skip threshold with an option to CB or go for a mid kick or high launch.

If you use it late. You do get shafted on damage but your guaranteed stun into CB becomes a guaranteed launcher.

But ok I get it that's not enough for you. Well ok understand the DS mid punch you're talking about is only one frame off for launching with 9K.

Instead of giving him the throw how about he gets a few things.

1. DS 4PP4/4PPP Everyone wants it and it doesn't have to work after Dragon Gunner 6H+K.

2. For 4P to launch more consistently so it doesn't require ridiculous timing and range situations.

Stun to Launch - 4PP, 6PK (6K46K lightweights only.
CH and Crouching Stun to Launch - 4PP, DS K, 6PK (6K46K lightweights only)
FULL Threshold - In this case the first hit of the second P can whiff to give a slightly higher launch but the hitboxes need to be CONSISTENT.

4PP, DS K, PP2KK (which will probably require the relaunch of PP2K to be adjusted or the hitbox of PP2KK itself... but it will be stylish.

3. Fix DS in neutral. It's main problems are no tracking and no real way to keep pressure with it or at least keep your opponent guessing since you have to fish for CHs.

I vote to give him +1 on block for his DS P.

Giving him +1 suddenly makes his DS viable on mix up strings like P2P, 6P, 4PP, because all 3 demand respect that the player MIGHT JUST LET THAT SHIT RIP.

P2PK/6Pk is safe and quick. Throw a few of those then change up and put the sweep on the screen. FIRST layer done.

Ok so now they're reacting to your sweep but only react blocking if they see the motion. Ok put that jab on the screen.

They try to jab back? You beat their jab with 6P unless it's a 9 frames where you'll trade with your own jab which is only a handful of characters.

They get tired if being at disadvantage then they're going to have to step which brings me too...

4. DS 6P tracking.

DS 6P checking side step will open up for stun game or instant launching with 9K or 4P if they do the change I proposed.

What's more is it even makes fuzzy guard invalid when you don't give the opponent a chance to react to the mix-up because I don't know anyone that can consistently just frame fuzzy guard under a high and still block a mid...

Now you have answers in the neutral and the unsafeness is warranted.

Like it's all about the synergy and the stance has it...
 
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Darkslay

Well-Known Member
Dragon's Gate
Main Character
Jann Lee
PSN ID
Darkslayxz
#77
Let me stop you right there.

You forget DS jab. It opens up for damn near every launcher in his arsenal and CB.

So the real 50/50 is DS jab vs DS K which does give every viable launcher in his arsenal even though 33P is only viable at max threshold though you can still get 63 by doing P+K on stun to launch.
You missed the point of my previous post. DS P doesn't even lead into CB most of the time since it build ups the same amount of Critical Damage as a regular jab. DS 6P+K is the real mixup here since, like you said, it guarantees either a launch or a deep stun for a must hold situation.
Don't get me wrong I see that all these characters have throws in their stances...

You know what they don't have? A Dragon Gunner.

You know what else they dont have? An offensive hold in general.

They also don't have a high that skips threshold by guaranteeing that same mid kick you said always gets held. It SKIPS THRESHOLD. FOR FREE.
Yeah, they don't have DGs. But are you saying the DG is better than stuff like Heishu T, Bending Stance T, Ducking T or even Bayman's 214T? For the sake of my sanity, I hope you aren't.

I don't know how many times I'm going to have to say this, but I guess add one to the count. The Dragon Gunner is a SHIT move, it's not viable anymore, it's a gimmick. It's status as an OH doesn't even apply anymore since for 5 years now, players have been using it as a comeback mechanic rather than a defensive pressure tool.

That's also why DS 6P+K is restricted to returning to Dragon Stance. They only want you to have DS K because the launcher itself is restricted on damage potential.
You're not even factoring DS 6K as an option, which is arguably just as good as DS K, if not better, since it grants post-knockback pressure and wall carry.
See first things first you have to understand the synergy of the stance. Everything is there for a reason and if any move overlaps that other move in utility then it becomes useless.

DS P is fastest and gets a good stun for his decent launchers plus it's safe.

DS K is a better stun quality in general and opens up for all main launchers but becomes the most obvious choice and as you said many characters have counters for this in their advanced holds or just hold properties in general.

DS 6P covers both options as the least likely to be used but allows stun game to continue like normal and gets a launcher too plus it requires fastest hold/slow escape to avoid being caught by his 9K.

DS P+K is a CB... And its stun quality is really good so he can launch with his decent launchers except 33P.
Dragon Stance is not a synergistic stance, as only one of its options lead into itself, it's just a visual mixup extender.

Everything else is more or so correct, however DS 6P should be used as a frame trap because of its low amount of advantage.
DS 6P+K is godsend.

If you open up with it it's unsafe but gives you the option to use any follow up including CBs normal stun.

If you use it as an immediate follow up, you beat all mid holds and slow escape then skip threshold with an option to CB or go for a mid kick or high launch.

If you use it late. You do get shafted on damage but your guaranteed stun into CB becomes a guaranteed launcher.

But ok I get it that's not enough for you. Well ok understand the DS mid punch you're talking about is only one frame off for launching with 9K.
All true again, however none of this adds to my argument, like I said, you missed my point.

Also, it's actually 2 frames off, because of DOA5's inherent 2 frame delay between start-up and active frames, that's basic general knowledge. 9K shouldn't even cross your mind after DS 6P.
Instead of giving him the throw how about he gets a few things.

1. DS 4PP4/4PPP Everyone wants it and it doesn't have to work after Dragon Gunner 6H+K.

2. For 4P to launch more consistently so it doesn't require ridiculous timing and range situations.

Stun to Launch - 4PP, 6PK (6K46K lightweights only.
CH and Crouching Stun to Launch - 4PP, DS K, 6PK (6K46K lightweights only)
FULL Threshold - In this case the first hit of the second P can whiff to give a slightly higher launch but the hitboxes need to be CONSISTENT.

4PP, DS K, PP2KK (which will probably require the relaunch of PP2K to be adjusted or the hitbox of PP2KK itself... but it will be stylish.

3. Fix DS in neutral. It's main problems are no tracking and no real way to keep pressure with it or at least keep your opponent guessing since you have to fish for CHs.

I vote to give him +1 on block for his DS P.

Giving him +1 suddenly makes his DS viable on mix up strings like P2P, 6P, 4PP, because all 3 demand respect that the player MIGHT JUST LET THAT SHIT RIP.

P2PK/6Pk is safe and quick. Throw a few of those then change up and put the sweep on the screen. FIRST layer done.

Ok so now they're reacting to your sweep but only react blocking if they see the motion. Ok put that jab on the screen.

They try to jab back? You beat their jab with 6P unless it's a 9 frames where you'll trade with your own jab which is only a handful of characters.

They get tired if being at disadvantage then they're going to have to step which brings me too...

4. DS 6P tracking.

DS 6P checking side step will open up for stun game or instant launching with 9K or 4P if they do the change I proposed.

What's more is it even makes fuzzy guard invalid when you don't give the opponent a chance to react to the mix-up because I don't know anyone that can consistently just frame fuzzy guard under a high and still block a mid...

Now you have answers in the neutral and the unsafeness is warranted.

Like it's all about the synergy and the stance has it...
1. I've wanted this ever since LR came out. It really pushes my shit when I'm reminded that Honoka has it and JL doesn't, what in the fuck where they thinking. Definitely agree with this.

2. I think 4P launch is fine the way it is now, people that often play me know I can confirm a 4P launch into a combo easily. You can actually get P2PK against lightweights and PPP6P against Alpha. I think being able to float with DS K would be a little much for a true mid, natural combo, tracking, safe punch string.

3. Funny it took you until here to get what I was saying in my other post, but yes, DS needs to be viable in neutral, that's its biggest issue.

+1 DS P would be godlike, somehow I think they'd see it as too strong, you already have 7P after all.

4. There's no real reason to SS a Jann Lee in DS, making DS 6P -7 would be the real deal, I see more and more players fuzzying appropiately nowadays, people are catching on.
 
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TakedaZX

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Twilight Town
Main Character
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TakedaZX
#78
You missed the point of my previous post. DS P doesn't even lead into CB most of the time since it build ups the same amount of Critical Damage as a regular jab. DS 6P+K is the real mixup here since, like you said, it guarantees either a launch or a deep stun for a must hold situation
I didn't miss any point. It didn't take me a whole post to understand it. I'm simply saying your solution is mostly invalid.

The jab is a low risk low reward option that can easily lead into higher rewards... like say any launcher because its stun doesnt allow for the opponent to shake or instant hold out of his higher speed launchers.

That includes CB when you are in late threshold.

Do you see my point now? You're denying it's validility of the move because it doesn't do the guessing for you. Sorry to break it to you but this game is built around guessing.

A lower risk jab gives better reward in the guessing game including neutral because even at -3 on block you can still guess and possibly put the tides back in your favor. PLUS it's very easy to react to a hold out of stun to punish the hold even if it is the correct hold... but it's harder for the opponent to react to a 9 frame jab and hold it on time.

Take the higher risk with DS 6P+K and you THEN risk losing your combo as well as being stuck in an unsafe situation in DS (i.e. -Fucking34 at worst) or worse than that: getting held for damage with no execution... but you get max threshold for free so it mostly checks out.

So to reiterate. The jab has it's function. It is good.

Yeah, they don't have DGs. But are you saying the DG is better than stuff like Heishu T, Bending Stance T, Ducking T or even Bayman's 214T? For the sake of my sanity, I hope you aren't.
I am. It opens up for stun game which has more damage potential that all of those except Heishu T maybe which can't be broken.

Yeah you might be able to just frame the throw or time it better than the other opponent but a true competitive DOA player would learn those timings and challenge you.

I don't know how many times I'm going to have to say this, but I guess add one to the count. The Dragon Gunner is a SHIT move, it's not viable anymore, it's a gimmick. It's status as an OH doesn't even apply anymore since for 5 years now, players have been using it as a comeback mechanic rather than a defensive pressure tool.
-sigh- it's still valid. But Leifang is busted. FUCKING RIG is amazing but I think that's reasonable for the type of character he is... Hayate is lacking but fine. Nd Bayman is fine... tho others may disagree. Even Zack is fine and I don't find him too powerful. I find him to be good and that most everything he has synergizes well...

Other characters need work but no one needs to be as nutty as Leifang. That should be a given. All of her main moves go from invulnerable...

JL doesn't need a reset throw. He already has a Dragon Gunner.

You're not even factoring DS 6K as an option, which is arguably just as good as DS K, if not better, since it grants post-knockback pressure and wall carry.
It doesn't need to be addressed.

Were speaking stun game for the most part because you're not going to DS 6K into 6P4 DS throw now are you? What do we need to talk about then?

But to humor you I originally did address it while typing. I just found it to be irrelevant overall in the conversation so I cut it.

Dragon Stance is not a synergistic stance, as only one of its options lead into itself, it's just a visual mixup extender.
Which is the problem were trying to fix.

Everything else is more or so correct, however DS 6P should be used as a frame trap because of its low frame advantage
That's not true. You can still extend the stun game and launch off of it with 7K regardless. 4KK is a frame trap. P6P is a frame trap. Stop writing off good moves with actual stun options.

All true again, however none of this adds to my argument, like I said, you missed my point.
No I didn't. You just can't see past yourself because this person you've never heard of before just might be right.

Also, it's actually 2 frames off, because of DOA5's inherent 2 frame delay between start-up and active frames, that's basic general knowledge. 9K shouldn't even cross your mind after DS 6P.
Wrong

DS 6P gives +17. It's one frame off as 4P is 16i and 9K is 16i. Do the math.

Yea I thought it was 17i too because Hayate, Ein, and Hitomi all share a similar kick but no... JL is special.

1. I've wanted this ever since LR came out. It really pushes my shit when I'm reminded that Honoka has it and JL doesn't, what in the fuck where they thinking. Definitely agree with this.
You're late to the party. We've been requesting this since the end of Vanilla... no offense...

I doubt they'll change their mind but it is indeed horse shit that they gave it to her. It's more horse shit that a character with such a cute design is forced to be a bum ass copy character who ain't shit.

2. I think 4P launch is fine the way it is now, people that often play me know I can confirm a 4P launch into a combo easily. You can actually get P2PK against lightweights and PPP6P against Alpha. I think being able to float with DS K would be a little much for a true mid, natural combo, tracking, safe punch string.
I've tested your combo using CH 3P, 6K, 3P CB as the lead up. The damage is not that much greater and correct me if I'm wrong but this is a max threshold combo No?

It maxes out at 111.

3. Funny it took you until here to get what I was saying in my other post, but yes, DS needs to be viable in neutral, that's its biggest issue.
Watch your tone. You're actually starting to piss me off. I understood from the beginning. I brought up aspects you don't seem to understand the value of.

+1 DS P would be godlike, somehow I think they'd see it as too strong, you already have 7P after all.
7P is mostly irrelevant in this discussion.

I brought up the idea for the +1 to help fix Dragon Stance. Not to give him more frame traps just to have them.

4. There's no real reason to SS a Jann Lee in DS, making DS 6P -7 would be the real deal, I see more and more players fuzzying appropiately nowadays, people are catching on.
Honestly making his DS Jab +1 would be that reason for them to step. Only characters like Eliot and Kasumi would be able to challenge him at that frame trap and his sidestep on its own is viable as he can stun on NH with his SS P... and they could make his 3P high crush truly viable to beat jabs if nothing else so he has answer...

If they simply duck his DS jab to avoid this then DS P/K will be only a 1/2 frame difference. Once again he has answers. And once again for them to fuzzy his mids they have to just frame fuzzy back to standing... I don't see that happening consistently.

I can get behind the safe tracking but I think this games system as a whole needs an overhaul before that.

I think issues like losing focus after the release of Vanilla spiraled this game into a state where it doesn't know what it wants to be... a fanservice hub or a unique fighter.

This includes aspects in the mechanics like crushing, stun types and qualities, situational CH and HCH states and much more within the balance across the cast.

There's more work to be done than just om characters... But the communication with TN seems mostly gone.
 

Darkslay

Well-Known Member
Dragon's Gate
Main Character
Jann Lee
PSN ID
Darkslayxz
#79
JL doesn't need a reset throw. He already has a Dragon Gunner.
Problem here is that DS is not a pressure tool to begin with, at least not in neutral.
A reset throw is irrelevant when the Gunner already exists, the original idea for a throw from DS is to get damage from the opponent's mistake, not to reset the situation into another guess, like I said, that's what the Gunner is.
Which is the problem were trying to fix.
Like it's all about the synergy and the stance has it...
I could dissect all the nonsense you wrote again, but you clearly took offence to some of my statements and are not open to any discussion regarding your opinions. The converstaion wouldn't progress at all so might as well cut it short here.

One thing though. You prefaced your first post with something you should have kept in mind troughout this debacle; you're hella late to this topic, the meta has evolved and changed a big amount, you haven't, which is why you're stuck on your crooked mentality on the character's strengths and weaknesses. I don't even think you main JL, which is a whole other issue.

Good day, sir.
 

TakedaZX

Well-Known Member
Twilight Town
Main Character
PSN ID
TakedaZX
#80
If you can't see the egoistical tone you were taking by saying I couldn't understand a simple concept that you were trying to get across then that's your problem.

Dragon Gunner is not perfect but it is the function of the tool that makes it strong.

MY point overall is he should not have a reset throw and an offensive hold that does arguably the same thing and sends him right back into the stun game.

Even if they have to lower it back to 19 frames as it was back when... the tool is good enough. They could simply give him a DS cancel and that fixes your problem.

Catching a hold with DG results in Counter Hit damage and NH combo potential started with p6P or 6h+K or even a free 66K for space or guaranteed wall damage...

The stance itself has potential that can be reached in other ways. If you read nothing else... read that. And remember that were on the same side here but I see the bigger picture.

Comparing to other characters does not warrant a shitty option that will in the long run cause a worse result. That's why we characters like Leifang who are still nutty as fuck.

And I may not main him anymore but I'm more than competent enough in his moveset to speak on him. My three main males have been Hayate, Hayabusa, Jann Lee and Eliot who I've consistently played over the years.

I only quit DOA after Last Round brought a bunch of bullshit to the table and my attempt at starting a consistent scene down in Florida as we have good players far spread across each cost and no real venue. My original scene was alongside Gill Hustle and BBoyDragon in Massachusetts who brought me in and showed me what the FGC truly is.

So I don't need to prove anything to you. Never heard your name either. No shade but since you wanted to go there we can go there.

That's all.
 
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