DOA5U Kasumi's match video and critique thread

[Tenryuga]

I'm wondering about the massive usage of and the following in the middle of strings, when she gets back turned. At first, I though these were just input errors, but I checked the frame data and it looks like she's relatively save on block with this. However, I'm not sure if it is worth using it, because standing back turned can be very risky imo.

Any different opinions?

is going to be a very good tool in the stun game once the patch comes out because she will have a potent 50 / 50 in bound and launcher. She can also simply free cancel after and setup critical burst with a poke. In neutral I'm not sold on free cancelling at but the followup is safe and is very respectable so it might be a decent offensive tactic.

 

[J.D.E.]

Offline stream at KiT VS Dallaz. Starts around 40:00.

http://www.twitch.tv/sixfortyfive/b/497903127

 

[Tenryuga]

@JDE Your whiff punishment with 66K was superb as well as throw punishment. I was applauding you for that. My suggestion is to use 66P more in tandem with it because as you experienced players with good reactions will throw punish 66K on block. Those of you that saw this set take note. This is why we say 66K is a whiff punisher and not a tool to get Kasumi to the opponent. To test Dallaz to see if he was actually reacting to blocking it you could have thrown out vanilla 66KK a few times since it's safe and is a bound on hit. There was one point you started a round with 3PP from Kasumi. I don't know what Dallaz started the round with to get hit by that but That mid isn't quick enough to use at R1F against Momiji because all of her initial pokes beat 3P. P , K, 6P and their strings as well as 2P are what you should use at R1F with Kasumi against characters with 12i mids.

As for your offense it's getting better. You were less heavy on the predictable poking pattern you had. I saw some nice use of 3P delay P. You should also throw some 6P delay K in there too at times. Those two strings are her staple delayable strings IMO.

Your mixups were good but I have a few suggestions.

- At the wall instead of using P+K P, use 66P. P+K P is two mid punches in a row so you give players a chance to react to the second punch. Think of it like this: Everytime you hit someone with P+K they would have already been kissing the wall if it was 66P. Sure you have a few mixup options after P+K but you are still giving them one extra chance to guess. That could make or break you.

- When you are going to use 4H+K it's best to do it off of deep stuns like her jabs or 3P / P+K. 6P's stun is too weak for that kick. If you need a mid kick after 6P use 6K.

- After stun > PPP you launch with mid kick quite often. You have some other good options after this: H+K, 33P and throws.

But yeah overall you fought well. Good shit man and have fun at KiT.

 

[J.D.E.]

I was actually trying to test him with 66K~K a few times since it's -3, which is safe, but kept getting errors. Same case with the juggles. I also like to get my opponent to respect guaranteed damage. Most of them don't. In a sense, when I played shade swifteye, a match that I lost that sent me to losers, I discovered 46T is a legitimate loop as well. You have to delay 2 frames. 4PK which is guaranteed after H+K on the wall is much better than using 9K because of the angle rip.

These were good sets between me & Dallaz, but those few things plus the teching game is what I need to explore. I can't really go into detail the way I want by phone. I need to be at a CPU to give a full explanation of how I play her.

 

[Nameless Sama]

 

[J.D.E.]

Didn't know where to really put this, so I put it in here. It's just Top 8 from KiT. And yes I lost to Requiem (good friend of mine from Cali). I had no legitimate fighting experience with any Helena's since 5U so I didn't really know what to do against him (Good shit bro). Plus, we used to play each other on the regular, but our connections just all of a sudden has problems now.

http://www.twitch.tv/pandaxgaming/b/498411230

Here again, is Day 2 of KiT. There was me vs Shade Swifteye (Good shit bro), & some more Kasumi matches with us as Kasumi players.

http://www.twitch.tv/sixfortyfive/b/498095359

Edit: I can critique you later when I get more rested & situated, Nameless Sama. Same for Tokyo Pew Pew

 

[J.D.E.]

From what I saw in the video, the Eliot player missed a lot of throw punishment there. You threw out 6P6K, which is very unsafe on block. From her 46H (expert hold), if you re-launch with 236P, you would've had an easy juggle landing. Plus, they all hurt. It really takes no timing to do at all. 46H > 236P > KK7K 6P+K enders etc. That is if you're looking to make your juggle jobs easier. KK7K 6P+K PPKK is just either 1 or 2 points more than 236P KK7K 6P+K 9PK 6P+K KK I think, so it's still worth the use regardless of it being less. On the wall, just use 6K> PPKK. People underate this juggle because of what kind of damage it does on NH, but in a mixup once you make them guess & if they miss hold, 236T with this juggle just like the other ones is damaging. Especially with the wall hit.

I seen you use 44P out in space. While it's a good evasive punch, I don't know why you would use it as a whiff punisher. 66P, 66K, & even 3K because of the reach/range that it has are great whiff punishers out in space. Her 9K is good dealing with wake ups or lows being thrown out. You have to see it coming before you throw it out there. Even I had a big-time case of this habit (in the last tournament that I went to as well), but I also went back & worked on landing 4PKK after it because it goes to critical level 2 on the stun on CH. When it wall slams, you can re-launch with that, & 33P > 2P juggle combos back into the wall for bigger damage.

7K is something that should never be thrown out. It's highly unsafe.If the Eliot player blocks that, & if he would have known how to deal with her, then that's a guaranteed throw punish. 33P+K is something that shouldn't just be thrown out either. It's very slow. Unless, you're using a 6P+K CB, then don't take that risk.

You free cancel pretty decent, though.

 

[Nameless Sama]

Thanks JDE if you want can play someday on PSN. I always play fair and respect so it would be great training as well. I am from EU so I dont know how good our connection will be

 

[J.D.E.]

Sure, if I'm on, shoot me an invite.

 

[J.D.E.]

Ok ...
Since I had not much time to play during the week, I was quite anxious to start putting all your tips into practice yesterday. Therefore, I want to show you guys some of my latest matches.

I'm sorry if I might clutter the this thread with my rubbish, if someone thinks it's annoying, please don't hesitate to tell me. I hope it's not to bad, in consideration to the fact that this thread has not seen many new posts during the last months.

I still practice some of the combos posted before, especially those with 66K~K are a bit tricky for me, sometimes the opponent won't bounce from the ground. I think I'm just to slow with my input.

If someone might spend some time watching my videos and want to commentate, I'm rather interested in concerns regarding safety, spacing, getting into the opponent and predictability than combos I should have used for max damage this time.


You will notice that I've used 4PK again in this video as well as in the second one. I used it because I did not know that the opponents moves are that save and thought it would hit them.Lack of knowledge about frame data. At 0:54, I failed with doing the right followup for starting a wall juggle, 33P should have worked I think.

In this match, I also had some input errors. Around 0:24, I tried to go for a 236T launcher twice, I got a 6P instead.
At 1:35, I should have done a 9K for the juggle.

Well, my opponent here was not a beast with Ein, but he still did some unpredictable things.

Some questions I have:

I think I'm using 6P to much, maybe I should use P strings more. Is 6K also recommendable? I would use it only if I know the opponent is doing a lot of mid punch holds. Its a bit slow, isn't it?

Are 9K or 2K better moves for force-tech as 6H+K? You might have noticed that 6H+K did not work often and I got hit by a wake-up kick.

Sorry for the double-posts, mods. lol. @ToKyo PewPew, I had to take longer with yours because of how many vids that you posted lol. In the 1st video, you should've been blowing up Momiji's 66PP. It's -12 which is unsafe on block, guaranteeing a throw punish. As a matter of fact, you missed a lot of punishing. You pretty much told yourself what you were doing wrong there. On 1H, you could have used PKK7K 6P+K KK, KK7K 6P+K KK, KK7K 6P+K PP6P6K or KK7K 6P+K 9PK 6P+K KK (hurts the worst, universal).

Also, not a lot of people know this, but Kasumi's 4K & 3PK has the exact same type of property as with wall hits (33P > 2p> Combo) 4K > 2P > Combo, 3PK > 2P > Combo both on the wall to add to her wall game.

For the most part, I seen just lack of juggle knowledge & throw punishment. It's hard to really gauge these since you pretty much beat up on them.

 

[tokiopewpew]

Firstly, thanks a lot for taking your time and giving your feedback.

Also, not a lot of people know this, but Kasumi's 4K & 3PK has the exact same type of property as with wall hits (33P > 2p> Combo) 4K > 2P > Combo, 3PK > 2P > Combo both on the wall to add to her wall game.

Sounds interesting, gonna try that.

In the 1st video, you should've been blowing up Momiji's 66PP. It's -12 which is unsafe on block, guaranteeing a throw punish. As a matter of fact, you missed a lot of punishing. For the most part, I seen just lack of juggle knowledge & throw punishment. It's hard to really gauge these since you pretty much beat up on them.

Yes, missing throw punishment is one of my greatest handicaps, since I've been playing this game (only) for about 5 months now. In most cases, I have no idea which moves from other characters are unsafe and punishable, even if I've known them, I forget about them very fast. I think I just need some more time and experience. (Don't know, maybe I've done poorly by not getting familiar with all the frame data over this period )

In addition, I'm sometimes a bit afraid of doing throw punishment, because frame data can feel and look a bit different online, as you might know.

I also lack of juggle knowledge, respectively the ability to execute them properly, that's very true. I hope I will get better soon, especially with this KK7K 6P+K 9PK 6P+K KK (I'm still not able to do it^^, I have no idea how one can be so fast hitting the required buttons correct)

@ToKyo PewPew, I had to take longer with yours because of how many vids that you posted lol.

Yeah sorry, I'll stop it for now^^
I think I know pretty clear which things I have to improve now, I just need some time to get them into my mind and keep them there. Like I said, many thanks to everyone who gave me tips here!

 

[J.D.E.]

Firstly, thanks a lot for taking your time and giving your feedback.



Sounds interesting, gonna try that.



Yes, missing throw punishment is one of my greatest handicaps, since I've been playing this game (only) for about 5 months now. In most cases, I have no idea which moves from other characters are unsafe and punishable, even if I've known them, I forget about them very fast. I think I just need some more time and experience. (Don't know, maybe I've done poorly by not getting familiar with all the frame data over this period )

In addition, I'm sometimes a bit afraid of doing throw punishment, because frame data can feel and look a bit different online, as you might know.

I also lack of juggle knowledge, respectively the ability to execute them properly, that's very true. I hope I will get better soon, especially with this KK7K 6P+K 9PK 6P+K KK (I'm still not able to do it^^, I have no idea how one can be so fast hitting the required buttons correct)



Yeah sorry, I'll stop it for now^^
I think I know pretty clear which things I have to improve now, I just need some time to get them into my mind and keep them there. Like I said, many thanks to everyone who gave me tips here!

The best way to do that is to go into the lab, set a move to record & then see if you can punish it. Either that or go through the character's frame data through the lab & check the recovery frames on the move. That will let you know how to deal with it.

EDIT: I'm re-posting videos of KiT. They were put on Youtube so I'm guessing that they may take those streamed videos off soon.

 

[Chapstick]

I hope I will get better soon, especially with this KK7K 6P+K 9PK 6P+K KK (I'm still not able to do it^^, I have no idea how one can be so fast hitting the required buttons correct)

I had a lot of trouble with this too. What I did was go into training, set the AI to block all, and carefully start trying to get that muscle memory down with endless 9PK 6P+K 9PK 6P+K's. To start it's easier to do it with the AI's back to the wall because if you're too slow with the hoshinpo 9P you just jump over them out in the open. After a bit of time I can do them like it's nothing and I'm sure you'll be able to as well.

 

[tokiopewpew]

I had a lot of trouble with this too. What I did was go into training, set the AI to block all, and carefully start trying to get that muscle memory down with endless 9PK 6P+K 9PK 6P+K's. To start it's easier to do it with the AI's back to the wall because if you're too slow with the hoshinpo 9P you just jump over them out in the open. After a bit of time I can do them like it's nothing and I'm sure you'll be able to as well.

I've already trained it a lot in the dojo, seems like it was not enough yet. Trying this with the AI back to the wall sound like a great idea, although I would have to open up the block to get into hoshinpo first, right?

 

[Chapstick]

I've already trained it a lot in the dojo, seems like it was not enough yet. Trying this with the AI back to the wall sound like a great idea, although I would have to open up the block to get into hoshinpo first, right?

? With block all on, you can just 9PK~6P+K~9PK~6P+K~9PK~6P+K endlessly. Since 9PK is a guard break you can still use P+K and 6P+K from it just like 66PP.

 

[J.D.E.]

Don't bother trying to loop that. The time that they see you just "doing it", it will ducked & you will be low thrown. That is if you're trying to use it against someone for real.

Practice it with the juggles. Otherwise, you'll be vulnerable if you're trying to constantly do it.

 

[Chapstick]

I don't mean using it for real in matches, I just mean to learn to actually use hoshinpo 9PK and get the muscle memory down. It took me looping it in the lab to finally be able to use it in things like KK7K 6P+K 9PK 6P+K KK.

 

[tokiopewpew]

? With block all on, you can just 9PK~6P+K~9PK~6P+K~9PK~6P+K endlessly. Since 9PK is a guard break you can still use P+K and 6P+K from it just like 66PP.

I see. I gonna try that, thanks a lot for this tip.

Practice it with the juggles. Otherwise, you'll be vulnerable if you're trying to constantly do it.

That's a part of the problem. Training it offline is a good thing, but it has to work with the juggles I'm using when facing a real opponent (and online delay maybe) too.

 

[J.D.E.]

No

I see. I gonna try that, thanks a lot for this tip.



That's a part of the problem. Training it offline is a good thing, but it has to work with the juggles I'm using when facing a real opponent (and online delay maybe) too.

Not necessarily. I don't play her the same offline as I do online when it comes to that. None of us do actually. When I have a 4 or 5 bar connection, then that's when I attempt the juggles that hurt the worst. However, if it's like 3 bars & then in between 4, then I use simple juggles like 6K >PPKK from 236T (something that you would use anyway ideally). For the most part, I'm online to have fun with some friends & work on fundamentals & things that I find & use simple juggles to get the damage just online, but attempt the best ones at least once or twice depending on how good the connection is. Don't stress it. I really try not to play her online, but that's what I do if I happen to.

For the best juggles, I go to survival mode & use them for muscle memory after that to stay sharp.

 

[tokiopewpew]

Not necessarily. I don't play her the same offline as I do online when it comes to that. None of us do actually.
When I have a 4 or 5 bar connection, then that's when I attempt the juggles that hurt the worst. However, if it's like 3 bars & then in between 4, then I use simple juggles like 6K >PPKK from 236T (something that you would use anyway ideally).

I've played with a lot of people (e.g. RenderingStar, Panicitstylor and Tenryuga) who can also do these advanced combos online if the connection is decent (in my case it was always 1 bar to them). Sure, sometimes they drop them, but that happens to me even with easier juggles. Therefore, I wouldn't say it's not necessarily.

Don't stress it. I really try not to play her online, but that's what I do if I happen to.

Of course, we are different in this point. I have no offline scene around, so I'm nearly always playing online and cannot say that I would play her "in a other way" then. I'm always playing her the same way, just trying to improve some things with time. In addition, I'm sure you are more anxious like me for optimizing your way of playing, since you are participating in tournaments for example. Please don't get me wrong, that's not meant offensive. I admire you guys for your anxiety, but I don't take it as seriously as you do. Therefore, no worries, I won't stress it.