DOA5U "Lisa, it's your birthday!" DOA5U Lisa General Discussion Thread
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Cylith
Member
Its EASILY one of, if not, her best throw. +11 no matter what with many a mix-up. Practically even a vortex if your reads are good. Here are a few that are guaranteed and not able to be held out of - Slow Escaping(SE) is set to fastest -
1.)
The guaranteed launch. What more is there to say?2.)
This leaves you at +23 if not SE, +15 if it is. This opens up a world of guessing since this leaves her in her BT with3.)
This one leaves you at +20 if not SE, +14 if it is. This one I have been messing with since it keeps them right in front of without you ending up in BT. So if they want to hold you, that can lead into another Hammer Throw and start of a possible vortex.These are the 3 I use the most and with what I've tried, are the most effective. Especially if you don't want the wall hit with the
.I have been experimenting with just using
without the It leaves you at +33 and +23 if SE. I have some dirty tech in the works that I'll be sharing later with further experimenting because of SE being tricky. Wish I could capture it but I have no recording equipment.
LuPWNIII
Member
Its EASILY one of, if not, her best throw. +11 no matter what with many a mix-up. Practically even a vortex if your reads are good. Here are a few that are guaranteed and not able to be held out of - Slow Escaping(SE) is set to fastest -
1.)
2.)
3.)
These are the 3 I use the most and with what I've tried, are the most effective. Especially if you don't want the wall hit with the
I have been experimenting with just using
I have two more:
- leaves you at +13 (+7 if SE). It can lead to the Hammer Throw vortex if the opponent attempts a hold, Deja Vú/Leap Frog, and her OH if the opponent attempts to strike.
- (learned it from Gruff) also leads to the Hammer Throw vortex, but only if the the opponent guards/holds.
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Cylith
Member
Well, testing is proving difficult so I'll just post what I've found so far and make it a community effort. So as I said earlier, the setup is coming from Hammer Throw/ . Then using , which leaves you at +33 and +24SE. This is also where I was having trouble testing though. The seems inconsistent. It didn't happen a lot, only a handful of times over the course of ~2 hours, but my training partners were able to duck before the connects. I was online, but we have amazing connections to each other so it isn't really in issue. This is were I would like your help on making sure this is not duck-able. The computer didn't do it, but the computer isn't a human.
Moving on. After the connects, you do . This puts them in a BT stun. Carrera comes into play here. If you go it is a double BT stun and leaves you at ~+14. I was using it as a OH setup, mainly , to catch them moving since the recovery on the second is long. Then when they realized I was going for a hold, I would punish there ducking or counter attack. Now the next one I found is using Car. This puts them into that stun that used to have a guaranteed CB as the opponent is turning around(I have no idea how else to describe it). Although they aren't guaranteed anymore, the CB setup still works. After the Car you can do for a CB or do CarBT for another.
Since those are not guaranteed CB setups anymore and are able to be held out of, this opens up more mix-up. You can go into another move or go for a grab if they try to hold out, just to name simple things.
Obviously SE destroys this setup. Like it tends to do for everything, but this is definitely something to have in your pocket. I will keep looking into this as this could be a deadly tool for Lisa players. One thing is for sure though, I will endeavor to make Hammer Throw my go to punish.
. Then using , which leaves you at +33 and +24SE. This is also where I was having trouble testing though. The seems inconsistent. It didn't happen a lot, only a handful of times over the course of ~2 hours, but my training partners were able to duck before the connects. I was online, but we have amazing connections to each other so it isn't really in issue. This is were I would like your help on making sure this is not duck-able. The computer didn't do it, but the computer isn't a human.Moving on. After the
connects, you do . This puts them in a BT stun. Carrera comes into play here. If you go it is a double BT stun and leaves you at ~+14. I was using it as a OH setup, mainly , to catch them moving since the recovery on the second is long. Then when they realized I was going for a hold, I would punish there ducking or counter attack. Now the next one I found is using Car. This puts them into that stun that used to have a guaranteed CB as the opponent is turning around(I have no idea how else to describe it). Although they aren't guaranteed anymore, the CB setup still works. After the Car you can do for a CB or do CarBT for another. Since those are not guaranteed CB setups anymore and are able to be held out of, this opens up more mix-up. You can go into another move or go for a grab if they try to hold out, just to name simple things.
Obviously SE destroys this setup. Like it tends to do for everything
, but this is definitely something to have in your pocket. I will keep looking into this as this could be a deadly tool for Lisa players. One thing is for sure though, I will endeavor to make Hammer Throw my go to punish.
Cylith
Member
I have been using my above setup with great success. Against rank F to S I have used this tactic and I can tell you, get that Hammer Throw vortex(I now call it the HTV) going and health just disappears. Also, if I notice the opponent SE then I can change it up to the guaranteed launcher or other mix-up, which I also mentioned above. This screws with their head and I can go back to my setup when essentially they stop trying to SE when they think it doesn't matter against that throw.
I now fully believe that punishing with Hammer Throw is essential to Lisa's game. Add this with everything we already know of her BT shenanigans and she can be a nightmare to all who oppose her.
I have received a LOT of hate mail about Lisa the past few days(PS3 players are so touchy lol). I literally had one guy screaming at me about how broken Lisa is. This from an A+ who should know how to fight the cast by then. I then realized that its because of people like him that Lisa has been nerfed with every update. Beside the point though, I encourage every Lisa player to at least try this tactic and see how you do.
setup when essentially they stop trying to SE when they think it doesn't matter against that throw. I now fully believe that punishing with Hammer Throw is essential to Lisa's game. Add this with everything we already know of her BT shenanigans and she can be a nightmare to all who oppose her.
I have received a LOT of hate mail about Lisa the past few days
(PS3 players are so touchy lol). I literally had one guy screaming at me about how broken Lisa is. This from an A+ who should know how to fight the cast by then. I then realized that its because of people like him that Lisa has been nerfed with every update. Beside the point though, I encourage every Lisa player to at least try this tactic and see how you do.
ailingeternity
Active Member
The only thing that bugs me about using after is the fact you can still high crush it, while isn't guaranteed against the entire roster, I can still opt to go into BT (with ) if I want to alternate the flow of the match, otherwise it's a good substitute because of the advantage you get from .
I've been experimenting with in tag for my next vid.... Lisa is op as f**k!
after is the fact you can still high crush it, while isn't guaranteed against the entire roster, I can still opt to go into BT (with ) if I want to alternate the flow of the match, otherwise it's a good substitute because of the advantage you get from .I've been experimenting with
in tag for my next vid.... Lisa is op as f**k!
synce
Well-Known Member
Yeah tag Lisa is still pretty fun. The other day I was testing out the 1.04 changes and was surprised to see TN hasn't nerfed a certain move yet, I don't think any other character can do what she can. I want to believe it's because they're cool but probably they don't know because no one in Japan uses her.
AkaShocka
Well-Known Member
You guys know that move BT 7k that no one really uses? I found out that it has VERY GOOD REACH and it is very decent in spacing. It launches so high on counter high too. Only down fall about it is that it can be easily crushed.But seriously guys, try it, it has eexcellent reach.
ailingeternity
Active Member
Air grab is still the same, her changes we're negligible, the only one being . If you use it near ropes at mid distance from the the rebound stun (which you cannot slow escape from) the timing to use a critical hold has been extended allowing you a free or . Just to point out as well since 1.04 using after is holdable but extremely difficult to hold on reaction, it's still viable.
Lisa's changes via google translate;
"Adjusted by shifting the timing that will be able to hold side beaten, P to enter in fixed: 44T with a rope when."
. If you use it near ropes at mid distance from the the rebound stun (which you cannot slow escape from) the timing to use a critical hold has been extended allowing you a free or . Just to point out as well since 1.04 using after is holdable but extremely difficult to hold on reaction, it's still viable.Lisa's changes via google translate;
"Adjusted by shifting the timing that will be able to hold side beaten, P to enter in fixed: 44T with a rope when."
Cylith
Member
At least she finally wasn't nerfed in an update. Also just to clarify, this would be for stages like Sweat? Where you bounce off at certain distances right?Air grab is still the same, her changes we're negligible, the only one being
Lisa's changes via google translate;
"Adjusted by shifting the timing that will be able to hold side beaten, P to enter in fixed: 44T with a rope when."
yup
Cylith
Member
Hmm...I don't have much to add to that myself sadly. I normally keep my opponent in the middle of the arena since I abuse Hammer Throw lol. Though IIRC the strongest wall follow up, after the initial grounded wall splat, is . I haven't noticed it missing on any weight class either. I may be wrong, but that is a tidbit I do know. I'll be looking into this now that is a "mission."
. I haven't noticed it missing on any weight class either. I may be wrong, but that is a tidbit I do know. I'll be looking into this now that is a "mission."
For the initial splash I like to mix between 3k, k, and 66pp ( ss p ) also p+k.
And yeah 1pkk is my usual wall juggle. doesnt matter what you use between 4pkk and 6ppp since both do the same damage. although 4pkk has a sneaky ft you can do if you time it right and the opponent doesnt tech.
You can setup setup wall pressure with the hammer throw now since it doesnt have the followup anymore, same with 4T against the wall. They both put the opponent into a non wake-up situation, putting you in the drivers seat. If you time it right, you can mix the opponent up with 66pp and 66pk after whiffing the high as they are recpvering so that they only have time to block the mid or low...or get counter struck lol.
And yeah 1pkk is my usual wall juggle. doesnt matter what you use between 4pkk and 6ppp since both do the same damage. although 4pkk has a sneaky ft you can do if you time it right and the opponent doesnt tech.
You can setup setup wall pressure with the hammer throw now since it doesnt have the followup anymore, same with 4T against the wall. They both put the opponent into a non wake-up situation, putting you in the drivers seat. If you time it right, you can mix the opponent up with 66pp and 66pk after whiffing the high as they are recpvering so that they only have time to block the mid or low...or get counter struck lol.
AkaShocka
Well-Known Member
You guys should use more 6p4pp more at the wall. After WS I usually use 4pkk or 6p4pp. Also after 6p4pp away from the wall you can get a free 236p and can even try to FT with CAR h+k if they dont tech up. Also if timed right, 236p can beat up both mid and low WUKs. The move itself is a low crush but it has the ability to beat up mids surprisingly.
How often do you go for 9k as a force up?You guys should try hitting your opponebts with BT p+k for the hard knockdown and then force tech them up with 6h+k. Its a rarely used force up and I bet you 80% of the time your opponents will be in a daze after this one.
Cylith
Member
I use it a LOT. Especially if they don't recover from any hits that leaves them on the ground where there legs fly up. I don't know a name for it, Ground Flop Stun maybe? The way they hit the ground after
. If they don't recover, which I see a lot of the time from any skill rank, they are completely open to a which leaves you at ~+32(varies sometimes from +31-+34). That is a HUGE advantage and where frame traps come into play. I'll list the ones I know.This list assumes they haven't recovered from a Ground Flop Stun(yeah I'm use the term I made up
) So is used leaving you in BTNOTE: If the opponent knows the trap, they have ~1-3 frames to get out of the way on moves marked with
.- BT (OH) ~1 frame to duck on wakeup(not hard to do just hold duck while getting up)catches mashers with a HC OH =90 dmg
- BT This one is nasty. I haven't seen anyone SS it in training or with friends/online. They block or get hit. Complete win/win. If hit, do what @E-Mann said(~+15 for this which is great). If blocked though, you're at +17 and have a free . Go for a launch with , or more mixup with which in of itself opens up her world of mixup leaving you in BT. A CB can come from this guard break BT with or leaving them in a stun lv2, crit you can go for that CB or use that threat as the mixup and go for a grab for example.
- BT This one has a timing to it so a little trick is to do a quick BT dash to get the timing. This leads to her normal BT mixup strategy. nothing special.
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