Omegan Eckhart
Well-Known Member
There is no way they will make a massive change like this in a patch. No way in hell. Maybe DOA6, not DOA5.
Low holds should not beat standing throws.
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TakedaZX
Well-Known Member
Bullshit. Your main argument has been, lets make low holds punishable by standing holds. That's why this has dragged out for so long. We could've come to the impasse that low holds should have more recovery at the beginning of this.
and
I've been honestly dancing around these two things, because I don't want to tell you to fuck off and not play because this ain't Tekken, SCV, or VF, but honestly... this isn't. If you don't like it, there's 3 games for you. Tekken is roughly the same thing as Dead or Alive without holds. Maybe that's what you need to be playing. VF is even closer to DOA now... or rather DOA is closer to VF, but DOA still has it's hold system.
I said this multiple times, but this is where it ends.
We've stated the reality of the situation. We've given you your options that are viable. Now if it's a problem it's a problem for you and you alone.
Master_Thespian
Active Member
Taken out of context this sounds like you're saying drop DOA5 and get ready for the next battle in TTT2 (which, frankly, might not be a bad idea at this point).
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
Good thing we don't take things out of context then. Although I wasn't even thinking of "Get Ready For The Next Battle!" in that sense, so thats a little funny in hindsight.
Seriously guys, play whatever makes you happy. If you want to play a game that offers a hybrid of guaranteed damage scenarios, along with in-stun holds and ridiculously painful punishment options to shut them down, go with DOA 5. If you want a game that offers the same exact gameplay you've had for the last fifteen years, go with TTT2. If you have the time and inclination, play both.
There isn't a wrong choice here.
DR2K
Well-Known Member
Any nerf, I prefer mine, but if they added recovery frames or increased hitbox or my suggestion then It would satiate me the same.
I myself would just go with recovery frames.
TheTHCGamer
Active Member
Lol Rikuto that TTT2 comment wasnt very nice (but i so fucking agree with it). Its also why i feel its great that people who are new to games like VF5FS and DOA5 should give them a chance. Its a lot harder to get into games like TTT2 when the learning curve between beginners and newcomers is so vastly far apart. All i have to say is give the games a chance not just based on bias because a lot of those players are just making excuses so they dont have to leave the comfort zone of there favorite fighter.
When people say DOA is a masher game that features boobies i say to them have you actually played the game? Same shit when people state VF games are fucking boring and the characters have no personality. If you actually learn how to play those games youll actually appreciate watching high level play and know these games have more to offer than you migh have initally thought.
I couldnt stop watching the VF5FS matches at EVO.
Master_Thespian
Active Member
Yes, if we were to take the whole thing in context, we'd acknowledge you were *the* guy who led the charge against the problematic system mechanics of the DOA series until you got invited to sit at the big kid's table.
To say that TTT2 has the exact same gameplay for the past fifteen years is the same as Tekken people saying DOA is the same counter 'n tit shitfest it's always been. Neither one is true and it's either painfully ignorant or flat out disingenuous to say otherwise.
Although I will still be following the game from a tournament perspective, I was agreeing with your advice that people should just move on to games that they like better (back to SCV in my case).
Stikku
Active Member
all holds should have the same frame count. Low holds should not recover faster than mid and high holds, and all holds should have greatly increased recovery time to dissuade spamming and encourage properly timed and correctly angled holds the way they're meant to be used.
Furthermore, the ability to hold during stun like DOA4 should be a basic framework for DOA. Holding from stun is already less beneficial than holding from standing, and the ability to hold from stun mixes up the game making it more unique than just mashing out combos blindly. There's a definite added RISK / REWARD feature for both the attacker and the defender during those moments.
Per rules of DOA4:
The RISK for the attacker is being held. The REWARD for the attacker could be baiting or waiting for a hold to either THROW or attack the opponent for Counter-Hit or Hi-Counter-Hit damage buffs, which could very well be a launcher with some serious apocalyptic round ending combo (validating the reason why counter-holds should do a large amount of damage).
The RISK for the defender is being thrown or attacked any direction where the hold isn't covering. The REWARD for the defender is properly waiting and timing when to use the hold to deal damage to the attacker and return both the defender and attacker to a more even playing ground, allowing them to swap roles.
Furthermore, the ability to hold during stun like DOA4 should be a basic framework for DOA. Holding from stun is already less beneficial than holding from standing, and the ability to hold from stun mixes up the game making it more unique than just mashing out combos blindly. There's a definite added RISK / REWARD feature for both the attacker and the defender during those moments.
Per rules of DOA4:
The RISK for the attacker is being held. The REWARD for the attacker could be baiting or waiting for a hold to either THROW or attack the opponent for Counter-Hit or Hi-Counter-Hit damage buffs, which could very well be a launcher with some serious apocalyptic round ending combo (validating the reason why counter-holds should do a large amount of damage).
The RISK for the defender is being thrown or attacked any direction where the hold isn't covering. The REWARD for the defender is properly waiting and timing when to use the hold to deal damage to the attacker and return both the defender and attacker to a more even playing ground, allowing them to swap roles.
Game Over
Well-Known Member
So he over-generalized a bit in regards to Tekken while suggesting people play a different game if they don't like DOA so much. Sure, Tekken gameplay is not "the same" as it was 15 years ago, but you have to admit that it is "very similar" to what it has been for many years. IMO, outside of adding the "tag" dynamic in 2 games now, the last time Tekken tried something "new" with the series (T4), people demanded it return to its old form (T3->T5). And looking at the gameplay progression from T3 to T5(DR) to T6(BR), etc., not a lot has really evolved.
Whereas with DOA, going from DOA2 to DOA3(.1) to DOA5 now, there have been significant strides taken from game to game. And this is referring to gameplay at the fundamental level, and in regards to character-specific strategy.
Stikku
Active Member
It's pretty undeniable that Dead or Alive was a definite trend-setting series since inception. Danger Zones led to Environments, which games like Tekken would attempt to emulate, though never really straying further than Virtua Fighter in that sense. Danger Zones also led to the bounce mechanic for DOA4, and subsequently the bounce and "bound" mechanics for Virtua Fighter 5 and Tekken 6 respectively.
These 3 main martial-art based 3D fighting games have borrowed from each other and benefited because of it. DOA1 borrowed just about everything from VF, then took it further. VF borrowed DOA's strides as well. Tekken sat on the sidelines picking what it did and did not want simply because it was already unique enough to be mechanically different than both VF and DOA. That being said, I would have never expected DOA5 to take so much from both Tekken and Virtua Fighter - so much to the point that it loses it's own identity as a Dead or Alive title.
Raansu
Well-Known Member
All of that made DoA4 trash.
Crystic
Member
Aren't you missing an option?
What happened to taking the damage like a man in hopes of living to fight another day?
Too many throw-hungry Bass players these days...
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
See, here's the problem.
The charge happened during the battle. Remember when I said pack it up and get ready for the next battle? That's because the battle is over. It happened over several months of development. And It DID happen.
We were there, arguing about it every day.
Now, if you want to generalize that as "Oh, Rikuto got special privs so now he's shut his mouth and is being a good boy" then you are being ignorant as hell. That's the type of scenario some angsty 13 year old would come up with so they can pin blame on someone rather than actually have to deal with reality. Right now I'm taking the stance of the game being what it is..... because development is over. Sorry, that's just how it is. You wanna drag your generals through the courtyard because you didn't win every battle? If that's how you feel, be my guest. Just recognize that I was lodging serious complaints with the game all the way up to the final build. You can ask Tom Lee about me and my "bold opinions" yourself, if you really can't see it.
(Also, I told him this is exactly what was going to happen. So I now get bonus points for Ms. Cleo powers of divination.)
I'm saying that right now, repeating this kind of crap isn't helping your case with Team Ninja. It's just hurting the currently existing competitive community by making us all seem discontent to outsiders. No one is going to try the game competitively when everyone around is still complaining about it rather than trying to actually play it.
DR2K
Well-Known Member
We have a 9 page thread (where every other post is a new discovery)on glitches/bugs stickied to the top. The other top threads on how the netcode is terrible.
I don't think a complaint about the hold system is going to deter new players as much as that.
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
Glitches and the netcode are "new" problems that warrant posting about.
This isn't. Nor is what you just stated justification for adding fuel to the fire.
Bug/glitches and netcode thread are there to share your experiences so TN would know(and how badly) some thing need to be patch. You complaining about a system within the game mechanic they most likely won't try to change after development I think is what he's getting at. Not to mention the hold system is a big part of the game.
Master_Thespian
Active Member
Remember when I *agreed* with you about people just accepting the game as is and either playing it or moving on? Not once, but twice?
Whatever your serious concerns that you voiced in private meetings with Team Ninja we'll never know, but I do know you did essentially shut your mouth as far as what we could see right around the first IPL. So if you were playing loyal, unofficial community manager on the outside and dedicated advocate on the inside, my apologies. TN gets all of the blame in the world for not giving people the game that they really wanted after asking for detailed feedback. Never once did I say that falls on your head or the head of anyone else here. Save the victimized attitude and your absolutely adorable insults aimed at anyone who points out the obvious. My point was that it's hypocritical for *you* to have gotten everyone riled up with specifics on how the game should be and then for *you* to tell them to "just deal with it, bro".
If you really think that showing *any* business that you're pleased with something you're not actually pleased with in some effort to get what you really want is a good strategy, I think you're going to be in for a rude awakening down the line.
PS: I got through an entire post where I agreed with you on some counts and disagreed with you on other counts and not once did I find the need to attempt to belittle you. Stick to the facts and if they're salient that's all you'll need.
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
When I raised my issues with the hold system back in those threads, the unholdable stuns, natural combos and critical burst were not even public knowledge.
When they entered the equation, literally everything changed. In fact, I spent several months repeating over and over again how it changed everything. I wasn't silent at all about it. If you really think there is nothing to be pleased over then you are playing the game incorrectly, like so many people are right now. I don't think there is a single high level player who would disagree with me.
Mamba, NinjaCW or PL are free to chime in on that.
Sufficed to say, there is nothing hypocritical here (and when you accuse someone of hypocrisy, yes you are belittling them). The arguments of pre-E3 simply do not work against the current game, at all. That's why you aren't hearing them from me. If we were still playing with DOA 4 mechanics, you wouldn't be hearing them from me either because I would have moved on already.
Instead I'm being treated to people bitching about the game like it is DOA 4 when it isn't. The crusade is over. That kind of passion against the mechanics of the game is no longer warranted and we don't need this thread for the fiftieth fucking time.
You seem to be aware of this, so don't go making blind insinuations about my character for the lolz of it. I'm not going to play victim but I'm not going to listen to bullshit about my character either.
When they entered the equation, literally everything changed. In fact, I spent several months repeating over and over again how it changed everything. I wasn't silent at all about it. If you really think there is nothing to be pleased over then you are playing the game incorrectly, like so many people are right now. I don't think there is a single high level player who would disagree with me.
Mamba, NinjaCW or PL are free to chime in on that.
Sufficed to say, there is nothing hypocritical here (and when you accuse someone of hypocrisy, yes you are belittling them). The arguments of pre-E3 simply do not work against the current game, at all. That's why you aren't hearing them from me. If we were still playing with DOA 4 mechanics, you wouldn't be hearing them from me either because I would have moved on already.
Instead I'm being treated to people bitching about the game like it is DOA 4 when it isn't. The crusade is over. That kind of passion against the mechanics of the game is no longer warranted and we don't need this thread for the fiftieth fucking time.
You seem to be aware of this, so don't go making blind insinuations about my character for the lolz of it. I'm not going to play victim but I'm not going to listen to bullshit about my character either.
Female Tengu
Active Member
I think the hold spammer should be punished in general in DOA. A hold comes out with 1 frame and has the ability to do lots of damage + the additional properties like knockbacks over huge distances which adds even more damage because of the environment (Jann Lees mid kick hold or Ayanes low kick hold for example) + the damage modifiers which also counts for holds. There is no way to see or read the button inputs of your opponent. At the time where your opponent does F + any direction you are, most of the time, in the same situation thinking about what to do next (yomi) and you don't have much time to react, cauz the defender can recover and counterblow or punish you in a different way.
The funny thing is: Your opponent can see some attacks (slower characters/attacks) but you, as the attacker, can't see a 1 frame hold coming = no balance between attacker and defender. And this still is a major flaw in this system.
My personal solution I thought about the system is what some people already mentioned, but slightly changed. The more you hold after each stun, the longer the recovery frames should be. Like a frame penalty the system detects if the defender is spaming holds after a stun. Eventually the attacker can see the directional input (via the holding stance) and can rethink his next attack without having to fear a successful hold. This adds a deeper level to the hold system. So even low holds wouldn't be a problem with a system like that. After X seconds the recovery frames reset to its original state.
Not sure about the amount of added recovery frames per "spam" but as I said it's just a thought. This solution also needs no rework of the hold animations or anything like that cauz the longer the recovery of your opponent is, the better can you react to things like the dreadful low holds.
I love the DOA hold system but tbh, it's still a way too strong tool for the defender, even for a button masher like DOA.
The funny thing is: Your opponent can see some attacks (slower characters/attacks) but you, as the attacker, can't see a 1 frame hold coming = no balance between attacker and defender. And this still is a major flaw in this system.
My personal solution I thought about the system is what some people already mentioned, but slightly changed. The more you hold after each stun, the longer the recovery frames should be. Like a frame penalty the system detects if the defender is spaming holds after a stun. Eventually the attacker can see the directional input (via the holding stance) and can rethink his next attack without having to fear a successful hold. This adds a deeper level to the hold system. So even low holds wouldn't be a problem with a system like that. After X seconds the recovery frames reset to its original state.
Not sure about the amount of added recovery frames per "spam" but as I said it's just a thought. This solution also needs no rework of the hold animations or anything like that cauz the longer the recovery of your opponent is, the better can you react to things like the dreadful low holds.
I love the DOA hold system but tbh, it's still a way too strong tool for the defender, even for a button masher like DOA.
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