Chapstick
Well-Known Member
4K's the only one in that list that serves the same purpose of giving her a good stun. 66KK4 doesn't guarantee anything but you get great options.
Tru
My tier list Online vs Offline
- Thread starter T..J. Bernard
- Start date
Still want to say that tournament winnings does not always dictate the final resulting outcomes of how tiers work, not even SFV does that and yet they are fixing their list because different characters have been winning now. Eliot did beat Kwiggles a few times now, but he did mention that he has no clue on what to do against Eliot and mentioning he's just holding out of random while hoping for the best, same thing when new characters that drop in for the first time within the net or off the net and then trying to absorb on what's being thrown at you. It's not often you get Eliot put on screen so the most one can do at that point is to apply your own ability to win with skill gap involved, I'm sure Bladez played against Christie like a trillion times already so attacks or patterns have become more apparent for him. Gen Fu and Christie definitely has proven to win most of the tournaments, but people also "scanned" these characters on why they are so good and then it's proven on why they are, thus putting them up there. Akira, Rig, and now Tina has one won, so probability still plays.
Imagine everybody was completely bad at the game and then you only have one player who's winning the tournament as X or Y character that was never put on screen while being the only good player at the game. There's an issue there where people will develop talks about why character is so good or how incredible he/she is. Still probability on everything and no doubt that I believe Gen Fu and Christie are one of the best characters in the game, but people checked before they started winning on why they were good in the first place. You have games that have characters listed on the top on tiers that lost for a full two years and yet they still keep the character up there.
Or what if Naotora has been winning tournaments in rows. Is it now the player skill gap that's involved? or is it the character has been slept on? too many issues here. Then you also have those that run a whole bracket with their main character, and then proceeding to grand finals with a completely different character not really used to throw people off. You can't exactly blame people to say "That was just 3 games though. He didn't go the entire tournament with that X or Y character", but then you don't want to take the risk of getting sent to losers or getting knocked out the tournament completely because you wanted to test run a character.
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I was being facetious dude. Mocking the fact that tiers aren't that much of a deal in DOA since, really, anyone can win if the player puts in the appropriate amount of work. With that said, I give @T..J. Bernard props for trying to shape one up for DOA5LR!
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T..J. Bernard
Well-Known Member
Updated overall tier list in no order:
S+: Leifang
S: Christie, Helena, Gen Fu
S-: Akira, Hayate, Rig
A+: Ayane, Kasumi, Mai, Mila, Pai, Ryu, Sarah, Tina,
A: Hitomi, Jacky, Eliot, Kokoro, Momiji, Rachel, Zack
A-: Bayman, Jann Lee, Leon, Phase 4
B+: Ein, Lisa, Nyotengu, Raidou,
B: Alpha 152, Bass, Brad Wong, Honoka, Marie Rose,
B-: Naotora,
Thoughts?
I used the character guide from Arcadesensei to get a better idea of where everyone should be. Now this isn't the final list and there's still stuff to be improved. But I feel that I'm getting a lot closer in comparison to before.
S+: Leifang
S: Christie, Helena, Gen Fu
S-: Akira, Hayate, Rig
A+: Ayane, Kasumi, Mai, Mila, Pai, Ryu, Sarah, Tina,
A: Hitomi, Jacky, Eliot, Kokoro, Momiji, Rachel, Zack
A-: Bayman, Jann Lee, Leon, Phase 4
B+: Ein, Lisa, Nyotengu, Raidou,
B: Alpha 152, Bass, Brad Wong, Honoka, Marie Rose,
B-: Naotora,
Thoughts?
I used the character guide from Arcadesensei to get a better idea of where everyone should be. Now this isn't the final list and there's still stuff to be improved. But I feel that I'm getting a lot closer in comparison to before.
NightAntilli
Well-Known Member
I would say this for online;
S+: Christie, Helena, Sarah,
S: Gen Fu, Ayane, Marie Rose,
S-: Hayate, Rig, Pai, Alpha 152, Mai,
A+: Leifang, Kasumi, Tina, Lisa, Rachel,
A: Hitomi, Kokoro, Zack, Akira,
A-: Bayman, Bass, Ryu, Jacky, Momiji,
B+: Ein, Nyotengu, Mila, Leon, Naotora,
B: Brad Wong, Honoka, Jann Lee,
B-: Phase 4, Eliot, Raidou,
How one can consider Leifang that high when her best options are defensive while defense is harder in lag, is beyond me.
S+: Christie, Helena, Sarah,
S: Gen Fu, Ayane, Marie Rose,
S-: Hayate, Rig, Pai, Alpha 152, Mai,
A+: Leifang, Kasumi, Tina, Lisa, Rachel,
A: Hitomi, Kokoro, Zack, Akira,
A-: Bayman, Bass, Ryu, Jacky, Momiji,
B+: Ein, Nyotengu, Mila, Leon, Naotora,
B: Brad Wong, Honoka, Jann Lee,
B-: Phase 4, Eliot, Raidou,
How one can consider Leifang that high when her best options are defensive while defense is harder in lag, is beyond me.
Hint: Shoulders.
T..J. Bernard
Well-Known Member
Basically what F.O.N. said. Also Marie Rose is way too high. There are a lot of disagreements, even for online but I'll list them later.
NightAntilli
Well-Known Member
So one move makes her immediately top tier...? I could say the same for Marie Rose's dodgy jump and make her top tier.
"Shoulders". I.e. Plural. LeiFang has more than one BS crush. Furthermore, does the online "tier list" really matter?
NightAntilli
Well-Known Member
Firstly... It matters enough apparently, when you want to insist Leifang is a higher tier than everyone else online.
Secondly... Does any tier list in DOA matter, for that matter?
Thirdly... Aren't tier lists supposed to be based on match-ups, at least partially? Leifang definitely is not a better match-up against the majority of the cast online. The characters that are a better match-up against the majority of the cast online are the ones that can actually maintain pressure constantly, or the ones that have high speed. Within that category there's Helena, Sarah, Christie. Everyone else is below them. And the only reason Alpha is not in here is because of her defensive weakness. And the only reason Pai is not here is because she has few guaranteed setups and weak juggles. Leifang is nowhere near the category of these characters online. She's at least one tier lower, to which I say;
Someone like Gen Fu has extremely easy sitdown setups for guaranteed bursts. The majority of Leifang's sitdowns are extremely easy to slow escape, even in lag. There is only two guaranteed ones. One requires the opponent to do a low hold at the same time that Leifang does an extremely slow move, the other one requires Leifang to be backturned, meaning you can see it from a mile away.
Someone like Ayane has better crushes and better range than Leifang, so she can get away with a distance game, especially online, while Leifang really can't. Same goes for Hayate. A distance game is stronger online because it's a LOT harder to react to fast moves that close the gap than it is offline.
Rig has great constant pressure tools, good range and good sitdown into guaranteed burst setups, Leifang has none. She is in this weird place where for far away match-ups she's too slow and for up close offense she's too unsafe.
I guess extremely unsafe 'BS crush shoulders' make up for all that.
Lastly... This is supposed to be a tier list. Not a personal annoyance list.
Secondly... Does any tier list in DOA matter, for that matter?
Thirdly... Aren't tier lists supposed to be based on match-ups, at least partially? Leifang definitely is not a better match-up against the majority of the cast online. The characters that are a better match-up against the majority of the cast online are the ones that can actually maintain pressure constantly, or the ones that have high speed. Within that category there's Helena, Sarah, Christie. Everyone else is below them. And the only reason Alpha is not in here is because of her defensive weakness. And the only reason Pai is not here is because she has few guaranteed setups and weak juggles. Leifang is nowhere near the category of these characters online. She's at least one tier lower, to which I say;
Someone like Gen Fu has extremely easy sitdown setups for guaranteed bursts. The majority of Leifang's sitdowns are extremely easy to slow escape, even in lag. There is only two guaranteed ones. One requires the opponent to do a low hold at the same time that Leifang does an extremely slow move, the other one requires Leifang to be backturned, meaning you can see it from a mile away.
Someone like Ayane has better crushes and better range than Leifang, so she can get away with a distance game, especially online, while Leifang really can't. Same goes for Hayate. A distance game is stronger online because it's a LOT harder to react to fast moves that close the gap than it is offline.
Rig has great constant pressure tools, good range and good sitdown into guaranteed burst setups, Leifang has none. She is in this weird place where for far away match-ups she's too slow and for up close offense she's too unsafe.
I guess extremely unsafe 'BS crush shoulders' make up for all that.
Lastly... This is supposed to be a tier list. Not a personal annoyance list.
T..J. Bernard
Well-Known Member
I only have maybe two questions in regards to your points. Which are pretty valid in regards to Leifang (Though I still think she's higher in regards to tier list or at least top 5.).
1) If you say the best match-up characters have speed and constant pressure, why not put characters like Kasumi, Phase 4, and even Hitomi up there? Kasumi has a lot of speed that bothers many of the cast (Gotta love the 9 frame jabbers). And she's all over the place. I can even debate that she's worse than Christie in regards to trying to contain online (Being the Rig user I am). Same with Phase 4 and she puts on pressure where you have guess whether she's cb'ing you, launching you, or whatever else she does (Although execution is key with her). Not to mention if online is taken into account, when playing Phase 4, you sometimes live and die off whether you can counter her (which online never allows until it feels like it). Hitomi has many guard breaks, mainly from p+kpp or 4ppp which allows her to keep on with the onslaught. Also you can't sidestep her in most scenarios. There's either a tracking move after that hits or a follow-up that also hits so worst case scenario you're basically standing holding the block button for dear life. And I haven't even included Zack (Whom I consider to be highly underrated), Eliot (Same with Zack), and even Jacky.
2) How is Marie Rose above Rig? I'm sorry but I don't see Marie Rose higher than Rig in any scenario. If we're to go back to your point about pressure and stuff Rig is far superior to Marie Rose. Heck I can even debate that Rig wins more match-ups than Marie Rose (Only succumbing to Kasumi, Ryu (Somewhat), and Hitomi). Marie Rose's only 2 good thing is she's a bit less throw punishable but even by that, DOA online's more based off mash and which offense is superior. And the sidestep thing or whatever but 90% of the time it's always that throw which is easy to duck and the Booty thing which is only positive at a certain range. There are ways to get around Marie Rose, despite not being as throw punishable as the rest. (Though 6pp should be throw punishable. It's stupid Jann Lee's 6pp is punishable but not Marie's considering Jann Lee's more of a striker and has 4/5 speed compared to Marie Rose's 3/5 speed?? :/ ) Kinda adds to why Leifang should be higher If Marie Rose can crack close to Top 5.
Final point: I kinda feel an online tier list isn't of much value in comparison to an overall tier list. Almost every character online can be debated as S tier with online considering lag, delay in moves, and a lot of mash that people get away with. Heck even Bass got away with Mash one time considering he's the slowest character in the game. I feel an overall tier list is more efficient as it considers both online and offline. And I feel a tier list does matter in a sense. I've said it before and I'll say it again, If there wasn't a true tier list and it's as "equal" as everyone says, I wouldn't see many Christies, Rigs, Helenas, even Leifangs. I would see a diverse amount of characters. Now although yes, some people choose off fun value (Including me. Also this is why Gen Fu isn't as popular), most of the fun comes off winning. I wouldn't pick Rig or whomever if I was loosing, no matter how much fun I have with him cause the ultimate objective for DOA competitive (Whether it's Ranking up online for Leaderboards or winning offline tournaments) is to win. That includes finding characters that suit your play style best and give you the best opportunities to win.
I think you took my responses a tad too seriously dude. I was being facetious, but no, online tiers do not matter because DOA is not legitimate online at all. It changes too much compared to offline play due to latency in inputs & reactions. If someone takes online too seriously, it's their problem.
Offline tier lists matter a bit more, though IMO, DOA5LR is balanced enough that quite frankly any character can beat any character as along as the player puts in the appropriate amount of work to be successful with the character. Characters like Eliot & Phase-4 are generally considered "lower-tiered" characters but have both won numerous major tournaments for DOA5LR. With that said, it's generally agreed upon that LeiFang is one of the higher-tiered characters in DOA5LR because her toolset is very versatile and effective. And cheap.
NightAntilli
Well-Known Member
Kasumi and Phase 4 are extremely unsafe, more so than average. And it's so severe that even online they are easy to punish if they use those moves. So even though they have the speed, this limits them.
Hitomi is extremely good in mixing up and that can be a nightmare online, yes. But she lacks the speed and basically has nothing that's guaranteed. At least Kasumi has a few guaranteed setups.
I agree that Zack is generally underrated, but I wouldn't put him higher than say, Hitomi.
Eliot has weak lows. He only has one good low and the rest, well, not a big deal really. Maybe I simply haven't bought into the Eliot hype yet lol.
Well yeah, for the exact same reasons you say... She's hard to throw, her dodge has good mixups, and most importantly, she has offensive holds with evasive properties and respectable range. And her guaranteed setups are quite easy to pull off, especially online. Rig has better pressure but is worse defensively. Considering they're basically the same speed for their basic attacks, the faster characters will have the advantage on them, and their chances of winning will be mostly at points where they can turn from defense to offense, and Marie Rose does that easier, in my opinion.
I can agree that an online tier list is meh. But for DOA, the system is so... Let's call it unpredictable, that a tier list has minimal value. The tiers can be decided by the amount of match-up advantages, but some advantages against specific characters are bigger than others. It's this weird dynamic where everyone seems to be at most 6-4 in terms of match-ups, but there are variations within that. For example, Helena is considered to be at a 6-4 disadvantage for both Gen Fu and Hayate. But the reasons are completely different, and in reality the disadvantage is not equal in value against both characters, but we can't really name one 7-3 either. And how objective are they really? The Japanese can come up with lists looking completely different than the US.
I don't disagree that Leifang is one of the higher tiers... When in offline play.
Kensei_warlord
Well-Known Member
My personal tier list only 3 class:
A: Kasumi, Hayabusa, Ayane & Hayate
Why?
Since these characters are free on Steam, I play with it, then I think "Yes! This make sense! They are 4 ninjas! And KT really work out on these characters."
I still think these 4 are unbeatable on the right hands.
B: Bayman, Gen Fu, Jann Lee, Leifang, Tina & Zack.
Why?
These are the rest of characters from DoA1/++. Since gameplay mechanic didnt change very much, and these characters mostly still have some moveset from that time,
I still believe none of these characters have a useless move.
C: Helena, Bass, Leon, Ein & all other.
Why?
Looks like KT only try put more characters on DoA2 to grab a wider fanbase with different playstyle, they put:
Helena : Well, just a Kasumi + Ayane combo combine...
Bass : a true wrestle/grappler...
Leon : well I not sure...
Ein : a handsome guy...
Now DoA5lr have 30+ characters, I ve experienced alot match with most of these character.
Bass is the 1st character really bug my mind. I think "Why the hell Bass damage is so trash?"
"I mean... This is character from very old DoA2. (from ages ago)"
"What he had until now DoA5lr beside his size? slower than Tina? And weaker than Bayman?"
So I decided to put all these new characters on low tier since I see KT not even bother to work on other character...
I know alot of people will disagree with me, but I know I can speak and write my opinion, right?
A: Kasumi, Hayabusa, Ayane & Hayate
Why?
Since these characters are free on Steam, I play with it, then I think "Yes! This make sense! They are 4 ninjas! And KT really work out on these characters."
I still think these 4 are unbeatable on the right hands.
B: Bayman, Gen Fu, Jann Lee, Leifang, Tina & Zack.
Why?
These are the rest of characters from DoA1/++. Since gameplay mechanic didnt change very much, and these characters mostly still have some moveset from that time,
I still believe none of these characters have a useless move.
C: Helena, Bass, Leon, Ein & all other.
Why?
Looks like KT only try put more characters on DoA2 to grab a wider fanbase with different playstyle, they put:
Helena : Well, just a Kasumi + Ayane combo combine...
Bass : a true wrestle/grappler...
Leon : well I not sure...
Ein : a handsome guy...
Now DoA5lr have 30+ characters, I ve experienced alot match with most of these character.
Bass is the 1st character really bug my mind. I think "Why the hell Bass damage is so trash?"
"I mean... This is character from very old DoA2. (from ages ago)"
"What he had until now DoA5lr beside his size? slower than Tina? And weaker than Bayman?"
So I decided to put all these new characters on low tier since I see KT not even bother to work on other character...
I know alot of people will disagree with me, but I know I can speak and write my opinion, right?
Well, he's the best player on PC, so who am I to contest him? Hayabusa top tier, Helena bottom-tier. Makes sense.
K
TheDragonAwakens
Well-Known Member
So free characters on Steam are automatically top tier? And because they are ninjas because they are top tier? Why did you not list Momiji then?
Same moveset from that time? That already tells me that you have never played the previous games. The only character I knew that almost retained the whole moveset since their first appearance was Ein who debuted in DOA2. In DOA5LR the new things he only has are 1P and 214K. By the way, Ein was top tier in DOA2, but in DOA5LR he became one of the worst characters.
Helena being a Kasumi Ayane combo... just... just... okay.
And for the record, all playable characters from DOA2, DOA3 and DOA4 returned to DOA5. (With the only exception of Bankotsubo replaced with Nyotengu, and Rachel's moveset was based on Spartan's despite the massive difference)
I'm just going to nope out of here.
The reason why a lot of people will disagree with you because your logic is extremely flawed.
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Chapstick
Well-Known Member
You're allowed to be completely wrong if you're not hurting anyone I guess
I know I may get flack for this, but this is pretty much the reason why casual-minded people get shit on for producing "tier lists". You lose brain cells after reading the posts.