DOA5U "Prepare" - Ayane General Gameplay Discussion

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Force_of_Nature

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Just messed around with 3H+K in the lab. I discovered that you can pseudo-force tech off of 3H+K by rolling once then performing BT (1)PK. The input is 3H+K~6(6)~(1)PK I believe. The move pseudo-force techs because it hits the opponent on the ground twice in quick succession and thus forcing them up every time. Closest thing I can find to a DOA5 vanilla-style FT. If it connects cleanly, you get +13 on wakeup.
 
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Force_of_Nature

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Well because of the way how tag combos work in DOA, you can combo almost anything off of 3H+K for stupid damage. It's obvious that the bounds were mostly intended for tag play. It's singles play that makes utilizing the 3H+K bound a bit of a challenge.
 

ShinMaruku

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The Bounds are key to how I set up my tag partners.Never messed with 3H+K much but I think I will need to look into it.
 

Female Tengu

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SRK translation for the 1.04 Arcade Update. Ayane changes (not final, like all changes mentioned in patch notes):


Ayane
  • 4P, Back 4P, Back PP6P: Float on Critical Level 1 changed.
  • Mid K Hold: Brushed up the design of the motion.
  • 6P: Damage reduced from 22 to 18.
  • 6PK, PP6PK: Damage increased from 26 to 30.
  • 8KK: Guard advantage changed from +18 to +20F.
  • 3P: Delayable frames adjusted.
  • 3PP: Normal hit advantage changed from -9 to -3.
  • 4P·K, Back 4P·K, Back PP6P·K: Wall knockback distance increased from 3 to 4m.
  • 236K: Wall knockback distance increased from 4 to 5 (4.8)m.
  • 2H+K, 6K2K, PP6K2K, 3PK, 33P2K: Counter Hit and above advantage changed from +23 to +18F.
  • Back PP6K: Guard advantage changed from -11 to -16F, no longer is continuous guard.
  • 2K: Normal hit advantage changed from -6 to -2F.

Sauce :D
 

Force_of_Nature

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SRK translation for the 1.04 Arcade Update. Ayane changes (not final, like all changes mentioned in patch notes):


Ayane
  • 4P, Back 4P, Back PP6P: Float on Critical Level 1 changed.
  • Mid K Hold: Brushed up the design of the motion.
  • 6P: Damage reduced from 22 to 18.
  • 6PK, PP6PK: Damage increased from 26 to 30.
  • 8KK: Guard advantage changed from +18 to +20F.
  • 3P: Delayable frames adjusted.
  • 3PP: Normal hit advantage changed from -9 to -3.
  • 4P·K, Back 4P·K, Back PP6P·K: Wall knockback distance increased from 3 to 4m.
  • 236K: Wall knockback distance increased from 4 to 5 (4.8)m.
  • 2H+K, 6K2K, PP6K2K, 3PK, 33P2K: Counter Hit and above advantage changed from +23 to +18F.
  • Back PP6K: Guard advantage changed from -11 to -16F, no longer is continuous guard.
  • 2K: Normal hit advantage changed from -6 to -2F.

Sauce :D

Hm, not bad. Judging from what I've seen from Japanese play of Ayane, I'll doubt that she'll be significantly nerfed ever. Hopefully most of these changes will be maintained during the patch. Though, I'll make a few comments:

*4P, Back 4P, Back PP6P: Float on Critical Level 1 changed*

- If this means 4P always guarantees a juggle on any launch like in vanilla, this is a very welcome buff. Annoying how half the time it felt like it wasn't launching high enough to get anything besides 4PK or 4P~7K.

*Mid K Hold: Brushed up the design of the motion*

- Don't see much point in this, so whatever.

*6P: Damage reduced from 22 to 18*

- Aww, I took pride in knowing that Ayane's 6P did over 20 dmg on hit. Now it does the same dmg as most i12 or i11 6Ps. Hopefully BT 6P still does 24 dmg.

*6PK, PP6PK: Damage increased from 26 to 30*

- This is a welcome buff since I like me some 6PK.

*8KK: Guard advantage changed from +18 to +20F*

- Meh, whatever. 8KK is supposed to be pretty damn unsafe anyway

*3P: Delayable frames adjusted*

- This is a fair change since the move does have a ridiculous delay window. May have to be careful when poking with 3P in the future.

*3PP: Normal hit advantage changed from -9 to -3*

- Nice, so 3P won't be punishable on NH anymore. I'm guessing it's still the same on block

*4P·K, Back 4P·K, Back PP6P·K: Wall knockback distance increased from 3 to 4m*

- Haha, TN seems to like making Ayane's moves blast back further such as 66KKK. I guess I'll have even more fun blasting opponents off cliffs or into things

*236K: Wall knockback distance increased from 4 to 5 (4.8)m*

- A little unnecessary IMO, but I guess you get a slightly greater reward for using such a risky move. The blast-back range was already pretty damn far to begin with.

*Back PP6K: Guard advantage changed from -11 to -16F, no longer is continuous guard*

- What the fuck? Is TN really going to nerf BT PP6KK4? This sounds like they're going to make it similar to normal 66KK4 in the sense of allowing the opponent to react to the last part of the string. This will be an annoying nerf if that means the opponent can just duck the last hit now always. Hopefully that's not the case.

*2K: Normal hit advantage changed from -6 to -2F*

- Although 2K is a sucky move, I welcome this change, because 2K being -6 made the move shit even if it hit. With only -2 on hit, you're at least not always guaranteed to be beat out by your opponent.

Overall, I'd say that Ayane will be buffed again, and particularly will be pleased if 4P now always guarantees a CH juggle like in vanilla. However, I would prefer if TN did not fuck around with BT PP6K or PP6KK4. 66KK4 is already a shit move from neutral if you don't have any advantage because of the ability to high crush the last hit. I pray that this doesn't make it to the patch.
 

iHajinShinobi

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The only thing I really see as a nerf is the change to BTPP6K.

3P's delayable frames didn't need to be tampered with, but I guess it's to compensate for 3PP being -3 on NH now.

BTPP6K no longer having continous guard more than likely means that BTPP6KK4 no longer jails, this didn't need changing at all. This is definitely a nerf for Ayane. UNLESS there is something I'm not seeing with this, then it's definitely nerf (one I can live with but still).
 
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iHajinShinobi

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I've added the 1.04 change list to the OP of this thread, right underneath 1.00-1.03's list.

My Thoughts:

Buffs;

- 4P, BT4P and BTPP6P's launch heights are likely to be reverted back to how it's launch height originally was.

- PP6PK and 6PK received a damage increase from 26 to 30. This means her best front turned string just got better, universally (especially with wallsplats).

- 4P~K, BT4P~K, and BTPP6P~K's wall knockback distance was increased from 3m to 4m.

- 236K (drill kick) wall knockback distance was increased from 4m to 5.

- 3PP is now -3 on Normal Hit instead of -9, leaving Ayane relatively safe to use her BT8P or other things. She is no longer throw punishable this way. To compensate for it's new safety, 3P's delayable frames have more than likely been reduced a bit as well.

- 2K's advantage on Normal Hit has been changed from -6 to -2.

Slight Tweaks;

- 6P's damage has been reduced from 22 to 18. Nothing really major here for i13 frame mid. Doesn't affect it's crush properties at all.

- 8KK's guard advantage increased from +18 to +20. This is incorrect, 8KK is actually -18 on block, not +18. Regardless, it doesn't make a difference really. Still unsafe as hell.

- Mid kick hold (6H), not exactly sure what's new with it, we'll have to see for ourselves when the patch is released.

- 2H+K, 6K2K, PP6K2K, 3PK and 33P2K's counter hit advantage on hit was changed from +23 to +18. This only means that it's easier to stagger escape, so really only highs (preferrably a jab) will continue it's stun if opponents actually stagger the stun. If they DON'T stagger, then our fastest mids (6P and 6K) will deepen the stun threshold.

Nerfs;

- BTPP6K guard advantaged changed from -11 to -16, no longer continous guard. This more than likely means that BTPP6KK4 will no longer jail like 66KK4 doesn't. Not exactly a big deal, but it is definitely a nerf.
 
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iHajinShinobi

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Also folks, keep in mind that this list of changes are NOT final. This is just from 1/14/2014's loketest.

However, NOW is as good of time as ever for us to push my list of tweaks for Ayane that I posted up before. Maybe our voice (spamming) will make it to TN's ear this time around if we keep at it.

Tweet this; HajinShinobi's DOA5U Ayane Gameplay suggestions for next balance patch; http://www.freestepdodge.com/threads/hopeful-tweaks-for-doa5u-ayane.3598/
 

Kronin

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Some suggestions about how to fight properly with Ayane against a good Christie player? I know that the question is very generic, but I'm really not able to find the right tools to create openings and to not be overpowered by the fastness of Christie against an Ayane put in unsafe situations.
 

Force_of_Nature

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Some suggestions about how to fight properly with Ayane against a good Christie player? I know that the question is very generic, but I'm really not able to find the right tools to create openings and to not be overpowered by the fastness of Christie against an Ayane put in unsafe situations.

Check out the official Match-Up Thread dude.

iHajinShinobi said:
Ayane 10/13/12 vs Christie 9/11/14

Up close, Ayane has a 10 frame jab (P), two 13 frame mids (6P/6K), and a 12 frame low jab (2P). Christie has a 9 frame jab (P), an 11 frame mid punch (6P), and a 14 frame low jab into a string (2PPP). 2PPP starts low, goes high, then ends with a mid punch.

Right off the bat, Christie has slight advantage up close due to her speed. However, as I always say, faster speed does not dominate Ayane anywhere. It just means you are not going to be combating faster characters with your fastest mids too often, that's it. When fighting characters with mids that are much faster than yours, you need to make an offensive breakthrough or know the exact amount of frames opponents are at in order to poke out with a 6P.

When fighting Christie up close, you need to be patient and pay close attention to her as she tries passing through your defense. If she's pressuring you with jab strings, block, just block and watch her carefully. She is going to do one of a few things;

- Jab poke you while free cancelling: She will attempt to do anything here, more jab pressure, alternate her attack height, attempt to throw, delay strings, use JAK for mix up (if you see Christie using JAK against you up close OUTSIDE of stun, your answer is always 4P, always).

- Jab(s) into throw
- Jab(s) strings into JAK
- Jab(s) strings: Finishing them immediately or delaying. Delaying her strings can result into her actually delaying or free cancelling.

If you see that Christie is opting to pressure you with jab strings so often, Ayane's crushes will play a huge role here then. 8K, 4P, 1P, 2P, especially 8K and 4P will counter hit her clean.

Christie also has some fairly good high crushes too, not including JAK stance.

- 1P, 1PK
- 2P, 2PP, 2PPP
- 2H+KP, 2H+K H+P

(I may have left something out, sorry if I have)

1P tracks, 2P and 2H+K do not track. Christie's 7K is a good "get the fuck off me" move as well.

Versus Ayane, Christie JAK stance is only dangerous while Ayane IS IN CRITICAL STUN, because if she's not, then Christie is going to get blown up by 4P often (only if you're reacting to JAK stance). Christie becomes a big problem (for any character) once she hits and has you stunned, because you are not going to be stagger escaping out of Christie's stuns. She is too fast and has good deep stuns to keep you locked up.

So if she hits you then goes into JAK stance, you have to guess her 50/50.

Ways to deal with Christie up close;

If Christie is opting for her mids (6P or 6K, 6K is a 13 frame mid kick) more than often, then your jab(s) come into play here, as well as side step (just the side step, do not use a side step followup or you will get counter hit), and your holds. If Christie goes high often, you have your high crushes that I mentioned before. Christie is not winning the low jab pressure route with Ayane, unless you are being slow.

What a lot of Ayane players don't realize, is that our low jab, 2P, is a very important tool up close. It's -4 on block and +0 on hit, and it can change the momentum in our favor all too often because it forces opponents to worry about it. That alone allows us to poke with our mids when we can, or make opponents respond how we want. That's why, when you see me playing, I'm not spamming 2P for the sake of it. I do it to break my opponent's offense AND defense so I can shake the momentum or match in my favor.

You just have to be aware of both your speed and your opponent's speed in order to know how effective your low jab pressure can be in a match up.

Ways to get into Ayane's Comfort Zone safely;

P and 2P, or high crushing.

- P > BT8P: This tactic is golden in any match up and at any moment (unless your back is to the wall).
- 2P: A low jab on counter hit pushes opponents back and gives you breathing room. It's up to you decide whether you will start an offense immediately afterward, or back off a bit in neutral and play a range game or do something defensively.
- If you're high crushing with 4P (or any high crush that will net you some offense), you obviously just scored a counter hit high crush, some solid damage and a scored a knock down. Now it is your chance to go offensive or play defensively. That decision is yours because everyone plays differently.

Fighting at a distance;

Here's the deal here, most players who play this game do not have very good fundamentals or have poor footsies (even some solid competitive players in this game lack good footsies). What makes Ayane a very strong character in this area is not because she has range tools, because anyone can easily run in at you and be in your face again, ignoring your tools. So, that's far from the truth.

What makes Ayane a strong character while at a distance is that players who have a solid defense and strong fundamentals and footsies will take advantage of her range tools and movement because you know how and when they need to be applied in a given situation. You NEED to force opponents to realize that they cannot just run in on you for free whenever they want. You NEED to force them to respect your range and what you actually have and are capable of doing there.

Ayane has solid whiff punishers and great range pokes that compliment her stylish yet viable movement abilities. A combination of the 3 including strong footsies need to be taken into consideration here when playing Ayane's range game. Because it's very easy to run up to her again if you lack the ability to do any of these things.

I am saying this because Ayane dominates Christie at a distance. Christie can make for solid footsies as well (almost any character can) but her options at range are outshined by Ayane's. Ayane doesn't care about Christie's JAK stance at this rate. Christie can be pretty deceptive with JAK options at range, but Ayane's 3H+K and 236K can hit all of her options at the right distance (except for the low sweeps from JAK).

And, Christie has her running low slide kick, but Ayane should be facing forward if she sees that. Christie has 66K as well, and 3P+K options. But, you're not going to try beating out any options at range, you just want Christie to press buttons and/or make a mistake somewhere. So that you can punish her for whiffing, getting sloppy, or getting something blocked or held.

Ayane's range pokes;

- 3P
- KK
- 3H+K
- BT2P
- BT2K
- BT 4H+K
- BT6P
- BT6K
- BT 3KK
- BT PP
- BT PP6KK4: Excellent way of getting in as long as it's blocked.

Ayane's whiff punishers;

- 4K
- 3H+K
- 236K
- BT4K
- BT 4H+K
- BT6P
- 1P+K P
- 1P+K K
- BTH+P
- BT 6H+P
- 7P+K: Yes, you can whiff punish players with a Power Blow (when your PB is activated, obviously).

If I have to label the match up, I'd say it is about 5-5. Ayane can keep Christie out fairly well, and she can fight her up close too. But Christie has better mixups up close and better pressure as well. 4P hurts Christie's JAK stance a lot up close outside of Critical stun. But Christie is very difficult to deal with once she hits you. Neither character totally dominates the other, but both character's strengths work well here as well.

Both have very good damage output so neither really outshines the other in that area.

Force_of_Nature said:
Hajin's overview on the Ayane/Christie MU is excellent but I'll add my input also. At the start of the match or R1F. What you want to watch out from Christie is when she uses her 6P,PPP or PPP2P etc. nonsense. Her 2PPP is easily beaten out by Ayane's 2P so lows are a non-issue in close. At the start of rounds I generally spin away because you really don't want to spend a lot of time in Christie's face. Her poking capability is just too good.

The way to handle Christie is to zone her and force her to get creative in how she moves in on you. Her JAK bullshit means little to Ayane at any sort of range. 3H+K and 4P makes short work of it. The only time JAK may be effective is as a mix-up during combos. But majority of the time Ayane laughs at the JAK stance. Be careful of the rolling stance because it can crush mids like 3H+K and roll right under it. Also try to take heed of when Christie uses GB's such as 4P+K. She'll start to use these to open you up along with 2H+KP or her Attack Grabs (eg. 2H+K~T)

The way to make Christie fear Ayane is to make them feel shivers down their spine at the thought of 4P. In other words crush highs and interrupt her when you can with 4P (or 6P if possible) and whiff punish with 3PP for a low level launch. 4P is probably the biggest thorn in Christie's side. Make her dread the power of the 4P! Make her feel like she can't run her shit on you because you'll punish her with 4P or 3PP.

Ayane doesn't exactly excel at keeping people locked up and on the defensive but Christie players hate being on the defensive especially against characters with good mid or low tracking ability (which would include Ayane's 4P or 1P). It also helps that Christie's throws and holds are mostly shit, though I'd still be careful of 4T resets. Compared to other characters Christie rarely gets good damage on a Hi-counter throw.

Try to avoid fighting Christie in close range. Her poke pressure will overwhelm you quickly. Try to force a mid or long range battle. Take note that Christie's lows are kinda slow and most are quite punishable. Christie's holds and throws are weak. Use 4P to blow up JAK in close. Use 3H+K against JAK at range. Use 2P's liberally if you need to get Christie off you. The more that Christie has to come to Ayane, the lower the chances of her beating Ayane.
 
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Kronin

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Check out the official Match-Up Thread dude.

Try to avoid fighting Christie in close range. Her poke pressure will overwhelm you quickly. Try to force a mid or long range battle. Take note that Christie's lows are kinda slow and most are quite punishable. Christie's holds and throws are weak. Use 4P to blow up JAK in close. Use 3H+K against JAK at range. Use 2P's liberally if you need to get Christie off you. The more that Christie has to come to Ayane, the lower the chances of her beating Ayane.

Thanks so much for the suggestions and the posted quotes (and I completely forgot about the thread, sorry :p)
 
Awesome job guys!

I would like to discuss about the BT 6[6] roll. When I am BT and want to forward BT dash, it happens that I accidentally BT roll instead. I wish TN change the input to BT 6P+K instead of BT 6[6]. This way, there won't be any accidental roll anymore. Those accidental rolls happened to everyone.

BT 6P+K for one roll
BT 6P+K P+K for two rolls
Etc.

PPK6 roll would become PPK 6P+K. I think you got it.
This is not a buff or nerf but in my opinion just a way to get a legitimate better control of the character.
I want this for the same reason 11 became 1P+K.
What do you think?
 

iHajinShinobi

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I've reworded the above post a bit and added it to the list in the thread about Ayane tweaks. We should start tweeting the link to Team Ninja again. If ALL OF US do this, we may actually gain their attention and they "may" listen to all of it, or at least part of it.
 

Aerospark

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All these changes and Ayane's BT 4PK from DOAD and the DOA5 Pre Alpha demo still isn't back u.u I don't remember if it was in DOA4 or not OTL.
 
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