KingGhidorah
Well-Known Member
Funny you say that when you rage quitted on me the other day during our fight when i was dominating your Rachel with Leon...
jus sayin
You're cool bro. I see you like to dick ride like a certain other person.
Rachel General Discussion
- Thread starter Kodachi
- Start date
You're cool bro. I see you like to dick ride like a certain other person.
DontForkWitMe
Well-Known Member
how is calling out your hypocrisy dickriding? You claim people need to stop crying for nerfs and learn to fight her and then when you faced someone who knew how to fight her and wasn't falling for your braindead bs you quit and ran like a butthurt clown.
I'm not gonna lie. As a man of compassion, part of me would want to say "don't everybody gang up on KingGhidorah all at once" at this time, but even I can see the blanket statements clear as day. There's no way I can defend this based on what I'm reading.
I can only hope he understands the folks on the other side of the debate aren't looking to butcher Rachel to USDA choice beefcakes and make her totally unplayable. But rather, that their main focus is one simple, reasonable nerf to the recovery on her down attack that contradicts all others in the entire cast (the fact it automatically force techs with plenty advantage on hit is already more than enough to apply good offensive pressure). NOT a damage input nerf, NOT a stun property nerf, JUST THE DAD-GUMMED DOWN ATTACK RECOVERY ON WHIFF. But going by the outlook so far, it seems unlikely. I just hope I'm proven wrong.
I can only hope he understands the folks on the other side of the debate aren't looking to butcher Rachel to USDA choice beefcakes and make her totally unplayable. But rather, that their main focus is one simple, reasonable nerf to the recovery on her down attack that contradicts all others in the entire cast (the fact it automatically force techs with plenty advantage on hit is already more than enough to apply good offensive pressure). NOT a damage input nerf, NOT a stun property nerf, JUST THE DAD-GUMMED DOWN ATTACK RECOVERY ON WHIFF. But going by the outlook so far, it seems unlikely. I just hope I'm proven wrong.
KingGhidorah
Well-Known Member
Okay, her 2K getting toned down wouldn't bug me, but JUST that. Anything else would simply be foolish... And I don't wish to be defended as it isn't required, I'll deal with things as I have already done.
I think I understand why TN did what they did. Having stomp be punishable on whiff would make it useless because you can always escape by back-teching and then proceed to punish it. The only way to make it not useless in this case is to have combos that guarantee a stomp. But if you have guaranteed stomps, then that makes Rachel's blender even worse than it is now.
So basically, TN had these two choices...
1. Make stomp safe on whiff, but no guaranteed stomps
2. Make stomp punishable on whiff, but have guaranteed stomps
...and they chose number #1 because her blender does not need to be any more... blender-y.
So basically, TN had these two choices...
1. Make stomp safe on whiff, but no guaranteed stomps
2. Make stomp punishable on whiff, but have guaranteed stomps
...and they chose number #1 because her blender does not need to be any more... blender-y.
Spartan was still easily top tier. She could punish wake up kicks for free(and moves that were normally safe), did great damage on juggles, had way better ranged moves than Rachel with her 66P and 66K, and had a 50% life throw on HCT....and she was a super heavy weight. She was cheap as hell, people just didn't use her as much for whatever reason. Also she didn't need that blender because the ground game in DOA4 was like 10 times better than in 5U and like I said she literally punished wake up kicks.
If Rachel gets nerfed I want to see her get even more of spartan's moveset, haha.
KingGhidorah
Well-Known Member
She could use more moves, and more of Spartan's strings given to Rachel would certainly be a perfect fit minus the plasma grenade. Also, it sure has been a while. I doubt you'll remember me but I was known as Kasuyane ReBorn back on DOA central.
After reading this, I actually want the DOA4 ground game to come back. It may be a troublesome game for a number of reasons, but its ground game was at least hella consistent and made sense across the board. You knew exactly when the player didn't techroll, down attacks were guaranteed in a specific window, and it was possible to land two. If we had this back with everyone having a good amount of frame advantage on wakeup, everyone would be happy, and not just fans of Sailor Mars and the Heels of Hell. Everyone would have to work under that pressure on wakeup, and then you'd know it's your fault you weren't on top of your game, not the way the game is designed.
Just my humble opinion.
EDIT: @KingGhidorah : GTFO! You're KasuyaneReborn, and you didn't bother to tell anyone, least of all me? Welcome back, lol.
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KingGhidorah
Well-Known Member
I didn't think to say it until now, mostly 'cause it just struck me to even say so lmao. And not to mention this thread kinda side tracked my thinking slightly, so forgive me. xD
What I mean is... If you can not guarantee stomp from combo (meaning your opponent will back-tech everytime to avoid it)... and if it is punishable on whiff..... then why would you ever do stomp? Obviously noobs will not back-tech it, but in serious play, it would ALWAYS be avoided and punished, making it pointless to do.
SilverForte
Well-Known Member
That's when you choose not to stomp, and retain the advantage if they tech anyways. Stomp would be if they decide to not tech.
SilverForte
Well-Known Member
As it stands right now, there is no reason not to tech backwards against rachel, and she'll be at advantage regardless even if you do so. If the stomp was nerfed so that she would be at disadvantage if it whiffed, you would actually have a reason to stay on the ground and risk a wakeup kick, as the Rachel would actually have to choose whether or not to use the stomp or not, as of now there is no reason not to.
Itz King Beebop
Active Member
I've done some research in Training mode recently, and I found that you're always negative when you get up, even when you tech roll. There are characters that can leave you +18i on tech roll or wake up or whatever still. Why can't TN give Rachel the option to use the same type of mechanics to work in favor of her strengths with the stomp? Even if the stomp is safe on whiff a Rachel player is taking a risk every time she whiffs a stomp because that -2 or +1 or whatever isn't really something you want to gamble on, or rely on, especially on a whiff.
If you don't tech, Rachel can react and stomp. (I don't think it's possible to land, bait stomp, and then back roll to avoid it) And WU kicks lose to stomp, right? So again there is no reason to not tech, even if stomp is negative on whiff.
I should reiterate that my previous argument was strictly against the idea of stomp being punishable on whiff. I can agree to it being a little bit negative (maybe -2) if there is no way to guarantee it from combo, but really before we can say what is a fair frame situation for stomp whiff, we have to look at what the frame situation is after other chars whiff their stomp attacks. Obviously Rachel's should be worse, but we have to look at other chars' to figure out a starting point.
And honestly, in my experience, I always get beat out after a stomp whiff. I am just not seeing this alleged advantage she has after stomp whiff. Maybe it's there on paper, but it sure doesn't seem to be there in battle.
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Drake Aldan
Well-Known Member
What are you using? You're pretty much limited to 6P/6K, anything else is too slow and you will be jabbed out.
This is my current understanding of the blender.
When you are hit with the stomp, Rachel is +15 (I think), and she can do 8K or 4PP or throw. 8K can still be sidestepped in this instance!- but 4PP is tracking, so your odds aren't good. (You could probably use 6KP or something instead of 8K, that's your choice...)
When you back tech, Rachel is forced into using 6P, 6K, or throw, which makes it a plain 50/50. Sidestep to avoid 6P/6K, or jab/attack to Hi-Counter the throw. Rachel can use 66T to complicate things, but 66T does no damage and just puts you in the same situation again- block to defend against 6KP or what have you, or attack to Hi-Counter the throw. (The only thing guaranteed from 66T is a PP stun, and then you're just playing regular DOA.)
I've faced worse odds than 50/50 and I don't think it's so bad at all. (Viola...) But, if people can't figure it out, I don't have a problem with it being nerfed.
I have to wonder if they will just nerf her and not give her anything, though. Rachel seems to me like she's a grappler, baiting mid punch holds, without Real Grappler Damage™.
Itz King Beebop
Active Member
If TN takes away Rachel's stomp, I think they should make either more frame advantage guard breaks, or 12i mids. If 6P was 12i she could more easily contend with her numerous bad match ups (and trust me, she's got plenty) and on top of that she could more easily mix up her 6P with her 416T