Rachel nerfs
- Thread starter vINv
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Codemaster92163
Well-Known Member
The changes to the kick make it function like most any other 50/50. You wager the opponent will tech to avoid it, so you're at + if you guess right, or you assume they'll just lie there, and so you use the kick for free damage and more + frames.
It's not a useless move. It's just that you actually have to think about when to use it. A daunting little task, thinking is, I know. Yet that's how most other moves in this game function. When the rest of the cast lost their FTs, what could possibly warrant Rachel keeping consistent + frames throughout the match and eliminating the wake-up kick game, regardless of if she guessed wrong or right?
I don't hate Rachel the character, and I don't want her to be made unusable, but sitting here reading people talk about that stomp as though it was perfectly fine is ridiculous.
It's not a useless move. It's just that you actually have to think about when to use it. A daunting little task, thinking is, I know. Yet that's how most other moves in this game function. When the rest of the cast lost their FTs, what could possibly warrant Rachel keeping consistent + frames throughout the match and eliminating the wake-up kick game, regardless of if she guessed wrong or right?
I don't hate Rachel the character, and I don't want her to be made unusable, but sitting here reading people talk about that stomp as though it was perfectly fine is ridiculous.
vINv
Active Member
its not the stomp at a competive lvl rachel wasnt good to start with they nerfed quite a few things on rachel her free cancel after 3pp her launch throw is 15 wtv ayane and lisa get a faster launch throw and no one complains idk to me she is viable now they nerfed both of her scare tactics only good thing left is ss liener moves ill still playher but she is probally the worst char in the game next to elliot
Rubedood
Well-Known Member
Cause they didn't give her anything to compensate for it. All that was needed was an adjustment to the advantage on whiff, and it would have been fine, but they went too far and made it not worth using at all, since it's punishable by everything now. Character already had problems in areas, and had some AWFUL matchups, and this makes those matchups completely unwinnable
You can't makes changes like these on a whim, then not help the character out in their other weak areas. Even more insulting is that Gen Fu had WAY worse shit than Rachel, but he didn't get touched at all.
Shiranui
Well-Known Member
I just can totally agree.
Is not about the stomp. They can remove her reset game if they want. It's ok to me, I don't like to use dirty tricks to win. But come on, give her better tools to compensate.
Now Rachel can not face Kasumi, Ryu, Ayane, Helena, Lisa, etc, etc, etc in same conditions. If you want to win with Rachel you need to be 200% better than your opponent. And that's unfair for us who like her and want to keep playing her (and win, of course, as everyone).
Well.. At least the stomp can still be used when you KO your rival xD
Is not about the stomp. They can remove her reset game if they want. It's ok to me, I don't like to use dirty tricks to win. But come on, give her better tools to compensate.
Now Rachel can not face Kasumi, Ryu, Ayane, Helena, Lisa, etc, etc, etc in same conditions. If you want to win with Rachel you need to be 200% better than your opponent. And that's unfair for us who like her and want to keep playing her (and win, of course, as everyone).
Well.. At least the stomp can still be used when you KO your rival xD
FatalxInnocence
Well-Known Member
Can people go more into detail about why they think she's terrible? Cause from what I read, not a lot has changed since the nerf... the only extreme change ( that I can tell. ) is that her stomp start up is now ridiculously long.
I've still been doing fine with her, even after the nerf. Most people counter spam Rachel cause her linear strings, be patient enough and you'll easily land a 236T. Everyone will still tech roll after knockdown, so her tech pressure game even with the stomp nerf is still viable. Due to if you don't tech roll, you are able to be hit by the stomp, even with the nerf.
The stomp is a risk for both sides, if you don't tech- you're able to get stomped. If you stomp and they tech, you're gonna be punished. Chances are though everyone will still tech roll cause the possibility of punishing a stomping Rachel is too good to pass up, not to mention if they do stomp and you don't tech you're at -15
Knockdown, don't stomp- they tech roll- you're still at the advantage.
Predictability has it's advantages. Especially in a game like DOA.
~ That's just my two cents though. Whether or not she is legitimately unviable, I don't care. She'll probably always be my main as long as she's in the game.
I've still been doing fine with her, even after the nerf. Most people counter spam Rachel cause her linear strings, be patient enough and you'll easily land a 236T. Everyone will still tech roll after knockdown, so her tech pressure game even with the stomp nerf is still viable. Due to if you don't tech roll, you are able to be hit by the stomp, even with the nerf.
The stomp is a risk for both sides, if you don't tech- you're able to get stomped. If you stomp and they tech, you're gonna be punished. Chances are though everyone will still tech roll cause the possibility of punishing a stomping Rachel is too good to pass up, not to mention if they do stomp and you don't tech you're at -15
Knockdown, don't stomp- they tech roll- you're still at the advantage.
Predictability has it's advantages. Especially in a game like DOA.
~ That's just my two cents though. Whether or not she is legitimately unviable, I don't care. She'll probably always be my main as long as she's in the game.
x MAD AXES x
Member
So I beat a full lobby with Rachel, still complained she was op...
Drake Aldan
Well-Known Member
Yeah... In the open (not a 2K setup), the opponent can side roll and wakeup kick, and this prevents your stomp but if you block you're +6 and in 3P range.
The only thing I think is questionable is that they can side roll and low wakeup kick, I don't think you can do anything about that. I haven't put it together in my head yet but I'm starting to wonder what the oki situation from 4T really is like, if I should not even think about using the stomp at all unless the other guy absolutely does not want to side or back roll...
Doesn't this make it so that Rachel has no real down attack? Just always sideroll, and you get the luxury of choosing whether to wakeup kick or not... Isn't this the same as a regular grounded situation?
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Codemaster92163
Well-Known Member
If they can sideroll out of the kick, that's a problem. It should function the same as any other down attack, where they either tech back or eat it.
x MAD AXES x
Member
It's because the speed of the animation of the stomp is slow, it's funny it looks like her foot has actually got stuck to the ground, she needs a good frame advantage move on block.
Omegan Eckhart
Well-Known Member
You want people to trust match ups written by people like you who say things like I just quoted you as saying? You are way too over dramatic to be unbiased when writing about your character.
Seriously you want to judge a character based on paper and frames? Go look at Helena! Everything has slow start up, everything is about -9 on block and there is little to no frame advantage anywhere! Paper and frames mean nothing at all.
She still has frame advantage from 66K, just not as much, two moves are more unsafe than they were before and you have to "THINK" about how you use her stomp now instead of throwing it out there mindlessly. This is what people are crying about? She didn't lose any safe moves, get a damage nerf, have her pokes slowed down, get moved from the heavy weight class, lose the ability to FT, lose her OH or get a new height restriction on her air throw.
She plays the same way as before, all you have to do is think when you score knock down, that is all!
If when you knock them down they roll to the side instantly the FT will miss but the opponent won't be able to use a wake up kick, the only way to side roll and use a wake up kick is to hit the floor, not tech up and them roll to the side and wake up kick. If the opponent tries the latter the FT will hit them and they will be forced up.
Her FT is a true 50/50 now, there is no way to get out of it except to make a good read and tech instantly, and if they do and you predict this and don't do 2K you will have more frame advantage than know what to do with.
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Codemaster92163
Well-Known Member
Alright - the way they made it sound is that they could roll to the side and avoid the kick. That would have been an issue. So long as it functions the same as the other down attacks, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that kick.
Drake Aldan
Well-Known Member
Like I said- I wasn't talking about FT setups (e.g. airthrow, 9P, 6PPK/9K, etc.)
I am talking about in the open. Like after 6PKP combo finisher, or 4T. Do you want me to get video for you?
If the opponent is knocked down, you run over and you 2K, all they have to do is side roll and wakeup kick. To my knowledge other characters' light down attacks are fast enough to beat side rolls, or at the least, they recover quickly enough to block.
Drake Aldan
Well-Known Member
Really, I'm not crazy. I just play that way.
Codemaster92163
Well-Known Member
Yeah, it shouldn't function like that. That's something they should fix, but still, if one uses it like players used to (after 9P) then it functions as a 50/50.
Omegan Eckhart
Well-Known Member
All right I clearly mid read your post, I apologise.
vINv
Active Member
ok that was a terrible example really..... 1st off helena (my2ndary) has alot more options then rachel on paper helena has a ft options and more then one way to set them up. also whiffing 6p from bukuho is safe. rachel got the nerf DICK because ppl ciuldnt read a simple mix up. also helena aint liner like rachel and helenas 3p is 12fps with a 11fps jab. that agument is so far off the mark.. the creators left it like that to start with because it was like helenas force tech game with the same primse. ppl just whined about rachel because she has a grapplers throw dmg. rachels un safe liener no spacing tools slow start up on her frames. and now her only tools of fear are gone. all her scare tactics the launch throw is slow and the stomp isnt worth the risk at a competive lvl. if ur gunna use an example choose a better one. oh and helena has way more mix ups/free cancel options and way more ways to get frame advantage on hit and more crushes u sir are to salty to make an arguement smh@_@
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x MAD AXES x
Member
This Rachel is fine and atleast Mid tier, the stomp missing shows how much people depended on it and now that it's gone we can see who can adapt and who can't, she still is scary and like I showed to some people saying she was terrible she is still scary. Yes the stomp need to be a tiny bit buffed (-4 on whiff) but you can still play her and no good mus have been discussed only bad mus and I can give some good mus for her, Tina, Elliot, Mila are coming as at least 6-4 in Rachel's favor for me and then there will be alot of 5-5 mus for her.