Rachel Tips and Strats...

[Itz King Beebop]

Just doing nothing gives the opponent the opportunity to just do a rising kick as well. Only a good mixup if you condition the opponent to tech back as a panic response to being juggled.

the proper use for the stomp, is to discourage wakeup kicks and encourage teching to avoid the stomp. With the implication of the mechanic of always being at negative frames on wakeup, if they tech up without you whiffing the stomp (which is very common at this point in the game,) you are sometimes at more frame advantage than after hitting the stomp...

I kinda said that too, but I have found a few good players that decide when and where they want to tech a stomp, so idk how to say it, but after trying to practice this strat for the past few days, i found that people are going to have to start stomping on reaction if they see that the opponent isn't tech rolling (that is, if you can even do that...) Thanks for bringing that up.

 

[Itz King Beebop]

I feel like when I have people in my Rachel blender, I'm just spamming and all day cause everyone sidesteps on wakeup... Am I the only one feeling this way, or is it that I'm the only one feeling that this is a problem?

 

[StrikerSashi]

Just throw them, then.

 

[Itz King Beebop]

How have you guys' Rachels been fairing against Kasumis and Alphas, Ayanes and Momijis. I feel like I'm going through "the struggle" whenever I fight one of them... (actually, Rachel goes through "the struggle" with most of the cast anyway,) but I haven't really had any trouble with any characters but those few, any suggestions?

 

[Zanx]

I usually wait for them to commit to something punishable and hold/throw. Otherwise I have no clue...

 

[Nobus3r1]

Protip: If you play online switch your main to someone other than Rachel otherwise you're going to get declined a lot.

 

[Viper Excess]

I was just thinking, before 1.03 patch, Rachel could do the stomp without risk and without regard to the environment. No stomp setups were guaranteed but there was one place where backteching (anti-stomp) doesn't work: the wall. Most characters are dangerous near the wall, but Rachel has her OH to switch sides. And she has her 6T punish throw to serve as her wall grab, which hurts a lot.

Now her stomp is terrible if she misses (due to an opponent backteching), but near a wall, the opponent still cannot backtech. Wouldn't this mean that she is meant to keep an opponent by the wall, making her an environment character? She should be able to force up an opponent that is next to the wall, right?

I realize that she is bad at range, but there may be a use for her knockback attacks, to work towards moving the fight to the wall. And I do realize that sideteching allows the opponent to move away from a wall, but that just means that Rachel must work really hard to back an opponent to the wall. Moving towards the wall may not pay off as much as for other characters (effort/reward ratio), but having a chance to eliminate wakeup kicks is a good thing.

Main strategy for Rachel?

 

[Drake Aldan]

No stomp setups were guaranteed but there was one place where backteching (anti-stomp) doesn't work: the wall.

IIRC, backteching would still avoid a stomp near the wall. They'd be stuck in a bad spot, but they wouldn't get hit... You'd just get pushed out when they came up. I guess I'll go check it again. Also, the main setups for stomp (that don't leave you heavily punishable on whiff), 9P or 9K, both have 1m KNB properties, so the spacing would have to be exact.

 

[Viper Excess]

Not something I was expecting to hear, but rly? FFFUUUU... I know that I haven't spent much time in the lab w/ her, but that...seriously sucks. It just defies common sense, within any FG context. So she has no reward when pushing opponents to walls then?

I'm not sure what her main gameplan is then. Maybe she has none? Just "do heavy damage whenever you can?"

 

[Drake Aldan]

So she has no reward when pushing opponents to walls then?

Nothing except the standard, I suppose.

CH 6P stun into wallsplat combo gives around 85 points. Using 3K for wallsplat+airthrow gives 97... Compare to Hitomi, who does 95-105 damage for stun > wall.

6T wall does 69 damage (103 Hi-C). Which is... OK. Opponent doesn't end up in a ground slump, they can wakeup kick... so I guess 6T wall is just for style points (since 4T and 41236T do comparable damage)...

So... Hm. I guess she has no reward when pushing opponents to walls, aside from Danger Zones... I think opponents panic when put up against the wall but that's a shaky line of reasoning, though (not like there is anything special for them to be afraid of).

I'm not sure what her main gameplan is then. Maybe she has none? Just "do heavy damage whenever you can?"

... I guess so.

 

[Akumasama]

Reading the last posts I guess there is no way to make a stomp guaranteed? Similar to how some characters (Bayman, Tina, Mila come to mind) can guarantee a ground throw after a ground slam from an air juggle, in some circumstances?
Well tbh I'm not sure they can still do that in DoA5U (think so!) but they sure could in Vanilla.

 

[StrikerSashi]

I know Tina lost some setups for ground throw, but some are still possible. Rachel just never had any to begin with.

 

[destinyXwings]

So I've been reading around, just skimming not necessarily reading.
But since the system doesn't show, guess I oughta ask, how much +/- frames is Rachel at after a Whiffed Force Tech from her stomp? And I've just kinda picked the character up, so was just wondering.
I've been able to do 9P,1PP,9P,2K on Hayate (guess it applies to all in same weight class?), and the stomp is guaranteed, but the Force Tech whiffs. And yea I had a human player testing it with me with a back tech. I also asked him to jab with Hayate after the whiff FT after he gets up, and I've been constantly getting counter hits from the likes of 6P, 6K, (13 frames each), and 4P, and 4K which I believe is 15/16 frames.

 

[StrikerSashi]

I haven't actually checked the frames, but they can wake up kick after it, which is half the point of it.

 

[Itz King Beebop]

So I've been reading around, just skimming not necessarily reading.
But since the system doesn't show, guess I oughta ask, how much +/- frames is Rachel at after a Whiffed Force Tech from her stomp? And I've just kinda picked the character up, so was just wondering.
I've been able to do 9P,1PP,9P,2K on Hayate (guess it applies to all in same weight class?), and the stomp is guaranteed, but the Force Tech whiffs. And yea I had a human player testing it with me with a back tech. I also asked him to jab with Hayate after the whiff FT after he gets up, and I've been constantly getting counter hits from the likes of 6P, 6K, (13 frames each), and 4P, and 4K which I believe is 15/16 frames.

Okay, here we go...

First, don't use 1PP regularly; it's kind of an online string because it's completey reactable offline.

Second, the stomp isn't plus (and never really was) on whiff, it's just that before the patch, she was relatively safe, and with the addition of her having a heavyweight characters hitbox on strikes, it seems like you're beating out your opponent on wakeup but it was that your moves hitbox was larger than the opponents... I remember playing Mista Tee VDFC's Bass before the patch, and I whiffed a stomp (the setup I used was only -3i) and he did 12i P+K on wakeup (isn't that his high crush?) and I followed up on the whiff with 6K a 13i mid kick... his move beat me out of course and even after I did the stomp whiff setup that was advantage on wakeup (only +1i, but what's Rachel gonna do with +1i lol... you see how seful her 66K is now lol) Bass' P+K still beat out Rachel's 13i mids... Someone shouldn't really be swinging for the fences on wakeup any way, it just feeds into the idea of the basic, stereotypical, (braindead) DOA player... MASH MASH MASH (jk)
Now, you definitely shouldn't try to follow up on whiffed stomps... True the whiff can still be pretty safe with the right setup (safe as -3i) but then again, a lot of her setups (due to the nerfs) can be atrociously negative (I'm talking up to -25i)

All in all, don't make following up on whiffed 2Ks a habit, those or doing 1PP... they can work every once in a while, but that is not an excuse to keep doing stuff that doesn't really work.

Oh yeah, and btw you're +15i on the stomp... but she's actually got stronger FT setups that give her more frame advantage than the stomp... hopefully all of the other Rachels in here have been labbing enough to figure that out too. You can't have the least experienced players in these threads giving out the most information and strats and such...

 

[destinyXwings]

but they can wake up kick after it, which is half the point of it.

I've tried doing wake up kicks after a whiffed stomp FT, and Rachel ends up being behind her opponent in back turn position about a little more than half of the time. If that does happen, with enough reflex, Rachel can just throw out a move from her backturns. Of course, this is only a theory as I personally haven't tried it out. I don't know how long the wakeup invincibility lasts to see if its punishable in this situation.
When it comes to wakeup kicks, you can always hold it, as those are easy to see.

First, don't use 1PP regularly; it's kind of an online string because it's completey reactable offline.

I know that, was just giving a sample combo that guaranteed a stomp. Plus 1PP is pretty much her best launcher, from the time I've spent experimenting with her. I could be wrong.

the stomp isn't plus (and never really was) on whiff

Sorry if I sound like a noob here, but when you say "stomp whiff", are we talking the whole stomp whiffing completely or just that FT kick she does at the end of the stomp whiffing?
I know that if it whiffs completely, then you're at about -1 to -3. There's no frame data shown from the FT whiff though, so thats what I was really asking for is whether or not Rachel is at +/- frames after the FT whiffs. Because even when poking jabs out with Hayate after he wakes up from the Whiffed FT, I get a counter hit, Hayate's jab is i10 whereas Rachel's i11. So if Rachel really is at negative on a whiffed FT, shouldn't Hayate be the one to get the counter hit and not Rachel? I've even used i13 moves against Hayate's i10 jabs, and I still get a counter hit.
Your hitbox explanation does make sense, but I really haven't tried it out and see if Hayate's P beats out Rachel's 6P on neutral. If it does then, hitbox isn't probably relevant to this situation.
Thats the only conclusion I can come to after doing some "counter hit" experiment, unless this has to do with the frame disadvantage(would this be the correct term?) from having to wakeup before being able to input anything.

but she's actually got stronger FT setups that give her more frame advantage than the stomp

Looks like I might need to hit the lab more with Rachel. I always thought her only FT game was from her stomp.

 

[Itz King Beebop]

When i get more experienced at the game, and perfect my new Rachel tech, I'll post a Rachel guide for anyone still needing help with Rachel... That is much easier said than done 'cause sadly, I'm pretty bad at the game lol.

 

[vINv]

what is being missed is some of her more basic tools neec to b applied as well as an understanding of tne char your facing. rachels p k string is probally hands down one of her best tools. your main focus is not stomping people its puting them in a situation that forces a counter. more so then tina and other grapplers. start using her sitdown stun game alot more. focus on bounce combos that involve 8p and 8k rachels main key to victory is reading your oppenent more so then any char on the roster. reading there reaction to certain setups etc will post more l8r tired atm.

 

[vINv]

sit down set up use this to ssliner moves at the right time frame trap 8p+k k hit conferm 3p 8k 8k 214p+k throw

 

[Zanx]

Should we go for the most damage in air throw combos or is 3PP still good to end the combo?