The Official Dead or Alive 5 Tier List with Discussion thread
- Thread starter Matt Ponton
- Start date
Blacka Blocka Flocka
Member
Sureeee, Jeff. It all makes real good sense flowing from the great abscess you call a brain to the keyboard and onto this forums.. But the second you pick Zack vs a formidable Eliot you will find that match up to be in Eliot's favor, because, no matter what you say Zack needs to use his mid moves(Show me a Zack winning without using mostly mid moves) and Elliot has a Parry which could lead into a 9K(K) mixup or instant 3P mixup or grab(SUPER LAUNCH INTO JUGGLE) mixup... Zacks answer for all of this is his sway..... into what? Playing theory fighter is fine but it just isn't true...... Just like the secret to beating your mila is to back up and wait to counter your 3F+K (ima tell everybody, NOWWWW)
Of course we're playing theory fighter. That's how tier lists work. They're purely theoretical. It's a fact that Zack's sway gets around that shit, so theoretically he has an answer for it. As for whether a Zack player can effectively use that in an actual match, that depends on how good the player is. That's why people say tier lists are a jumping off point, not gospel.
HiguraShiki
Active Member
Jeff never said that he feels Zack has an advantage over Eliot, so I really don't know wtf you are talking about.
Jefffcore
Well-Known Member
lol This is DOA; everything revolves around mids and throws, so I don't really know what you're trying to get at.
You don't understand DOA, let alone how I play.
At neutral Zack's sway will avoid parries if he does a high from it and the 7p because the range is so short (If I read what AP said right). Therefore your point is invalid. Eliot needs to then guess around the sway. He can stop it if he reads it with 2p, etc, then Zack can go back to mids. It's just the same 50/50 over and over, that's how it goes with every character. The question is who has the most options to eliminate the opponents and who's going to get more damage from those options. In this case, they seem pretty even.
Been lurking for a bit after finding out about the site, but finally registered. Anyway, we're a small local community of people and most of us have played some type of game (FPS, RTS) on a professional or atleast on a sponsored level. DoA 3 was the last DoA that had any popularity that we played, but DoA 5 is now making a comeback. The DoA-scene is pretty small compared to back then (DoA 3 had ~30-35 active players), as it is somewhat split nowadays between different games. Still, probably got around 15-20 active players now.
In our local scene there's some differences in opinion about how good certain characters are or how the match-ups between them should be ranked, but there's a couple of characters that nearly everyone agrees on being top and they've stayed there for a long while: Sarah and Pai. Helena had a very brief spike in popularity and how people rated her after the force tech discovery, but died out in a few weeks after people learned to play vs her and punish. Some people like her for online though.
So here's the question - do Sarah and Pai have anything but favorable match-ups and ties in your opinion? Perhaps we're just too incestuous to see this in a different light, even though there's a good amount of exploring being done in-game.
In our local scene there's some differences in opinion about how good certain characters are or how the match-ups between them should be ranked, but there's a couple of characters that nearly everyone agrees on being top and they've stayed there for a long while: Sarah and Pai. Helena had a very brief spike in popularity and how people rated her after the force tech discovery, but died out in a few weeks after people learned to play vs her and punish. Some people like her for online though.
So here's the question - do Sarah and Pai have anything but favorable match-ups and ties in your opinion? Perhaps we're just too incestuous to see this in a different light, even though there's a good amount of exploring being done in-game.
Something-Unique
Active Member
I doubt u will get a true discussion on Sarah/Pai until it has been written in stone thousands of years from now on the day in which the topic finally stops being bombarded by ZACK takeovers and obsessions with JANN LEE. Not to mention people running theoretical ideas believing you can ultimately run offense from defensive tools designed to be "solely dependent" on an opponents offense (holds). I will re-quote something I said I wanted to discuss a few pages back when I wrote up the Mila information.
I said I would tackle why I listed holds, throws, general to be in order of importance from least to greatest and I suppose now is a great opportunity.
I always see people talking about hey you can't do this because I have counter a, b, or c so u can't use those moves which I find to be beyond silly. Counters take the least priority even in a game where you can counter out of so many situations. This is because (repeating myself) you can't run offense from defensive tools designed to be solely dependent on an opponents offense.
By the time you have attempted to guess right on a counter you could have been beaten much faster by free offense which is dependent on nothing and throws which are also dependent on nothing other than the obvious (blocking). In fact ur more likely to get high counter thrown hanging yourself out there with counters and in most situations lose more damage from the high counter throws than you would have gotten had u succeeded with the counter.
That's what always get's me when people go all ham with look I have a nice hold, a parry (admittedly mid parries that take care of both mids are more reasonable). That's why most people won't notice the greatness of characters such as Sarah and Pai and anyone else other than hey look I got parries (lei).
Sarah has no parries (traditional), no great holds, no special throws, but she has the offense and setups to steamroll u much faster and better than everyone else. Her frames can humble u just enough to get more of her weak throws in than u could get throw opportunities in with characters who don't have the frames she has. Her damage is also excellent.
While Pai shares the same concept but with better holds and throws she doesn't have the options Sarah has at her disposal and Pai's damage begins to fall apart against heavyweights. Despite the fact that Pai may still be faster than heavyweights she doesn't have the +frame into +frame scenarios that Sarah has and I could see her losing to heavyweights due to her damage issues against them when it comes to the damage race despite the speed difference. Point being she would have weaker matchups on that alone.
Going back to Mila for a second its one of the major reasons why I rank her so high. Her frames aren't as traditional as Sarah's but ultimately ur always stuck in +frame/high damage situations due to her TD mount escape. Or nasty force tech frame advantage. Or string frame advantage/OH hold frame traps. Exact same concept but her damage is disgusting and go hand in hand with it. Plus she covers all her bases.
The best characters in the game are always gonna have u at there mercy with damage/frame trap situations (for reference I main Mila, Sarah, and GenFu but the latter has no place for me with the other two). Not hey I have this hold/parry son!
I'm not SU, but Gen Fu is really good. 11 frame mid, good parries, built in guaranteed resets off of 9K (which is also his SS K) which lead to guaranteed CB setups, an unholdable launcher, plus his crush game all make him a very solid character. On top of all of that he's got some pretty sick sit down stun setups that only give you one opportunity to guess out of. Plus, he hits like a truck and can easily do about 50% damage without using a PB. Combine that with his ease of use and he's just scary. His weaknesses IMO are that he's mostly mid punch, so you'll be getting held a lot if you're too predictable with him, and he's pretty linear so he's somewhat vulnerable to sidesteps. Although with the way tracking works in this game, you'll still probably be able to hit SS happy opponents with linear moves every now and then.
Where is your scene located?
shunwong
Active Member
The Senpu resets are great, the thing is I actually haven't seen them done in any tournaments so I don't know how good they can be in reality.
I agree, his weakness is that he's mostly mid punch and that most of his best attacks are also mid punches. I think this alone puts him one step below the top tier characters.
Yeah, but the game is still young. I expect we'll be seeing more of the resets from Fu players in a year or so.
Omegan Eckhart
Well-Known Member
Gen Fu only needs to poke you a few times, assuming he isn't using sit down stuns and launch. He never needs to complete any strings all he needs to do is rely on the fact that his pokes will naturally trash everything his opponent does up close, poke again > launch or poke > 214F+P. He has a mid punch, a mid kick, and high punch and a high kick launcher so mix ups aren't a real problem for him.
His only deficit is lack of good lows. Being all mid's doesn't hamper him at all. He has been top tier in every DOA game as far as I can remember. He is the perfect tournament character, no learning curve and is extremely difficult to fight against. He is easily top 3, only Jann and Lei Fang are ahead of him.
Finland, in the Helsinki metropolitan area. There's very little interaction outside the bubble nowadays. Mostly it's just a loose group of PC gamers playing fighters or some other "for fun" games. The overall quality of games is quite high, though - comes from multiple people being the best in the world at some particular game in some particular point of time. The min/maxing and analytical skills aren't genre restricted.
Most of the stuff on the sensible tier lists (ones that don't have the obvious online cheesiness built into them) are roughly agreeable. I was just genuinely curious why people don't seem to give Sarah and Pai a lot more recognition, perhaps there's something obvious that hasn't come up in our games.
SU did mention that Pai's damage falls off vs heavyweights and it's kind of true. But it's just that both of the heavyweights aren't that hard to deal with I personally feel like. I certainly wouldn't give Pai vs Bayman or Pai vs Bass anything but 5-5 at their best with the knowledge and feeling of the match-up that I currently have.
Gonna have to go play those match-ups. Everyone has given up on playing Bass though after realizing he's not the (tag) monster in DoA5 like he used to be in 3. But with Bayman there should be some good matches. Perhaps I'll be able to contribute to the discussion in a more meaningful way.
Wah I've noticed atleast plays Bass with a serious face. Have you fought against any Pais? How do you feel about the match-up?
I don't think he was top in DOA 1, but he was still good. Then again, I can't find the tier list for that game anywhere so I can't back that up.
JAG THE GEMINI
Active Member
I still do.
SeraphimJester
New Member
Hello... I'm new here, and getting the game soon after a three month delay. Can somebody please explain to me the pandemonium surrounding Helena, and this force tech nonsense. Searching other forums elsewhere, all I've been seeing people complain about is that she's broken, a cheat-friendly character etc.
From someone who actually knows and mains here
In regards to the tier list, where is she?
And why has her force tech prowess been received so negatively? This is after seeing Mamba vs Master at DID
From someone who actually knows and mains here
In regards to the tier list, where is she?
And why has her force tech prowess been received so negatively? This is after seeing Mamba vs Master at DID
Omegan Eckhart
Well-Known Member
It was just hysteria. She is mid tier, she cannot guarantee ANYTHING at all, her sit down stuns are absolutely worthless. She has a way of continuing momentum by eliminating wake ups kicks but everything else is still terrible, crappy pokes, low speed, no safe moves and low damage output.
As you will have noticed if she doesn't make an exact read (as in if they block she throws or if they attack she does a 6K launch) she loses momentum straight away and her pressure game completely evaporates. Putting her back in neutral game where she is garbage.
All the top tier characters can sit down stun into CB in as little as three hits. Helena is nothing but getting them stunned and hoping they they guess wrong constantly. She has nothing in common with the high and top tier characters but she does have a lot in common with the low tier characters.
The easier a character can by pass the stun game the stronger they are in DOA5, and Helena like a few others are stuck playing DOA4 100% of the time.
I have no clue about DOA1, I've only been playing since DOA2 on the Dreamcast.
SeraphimJester
New Member
I'm quite disappointed as to how she turned out in DOA5. VERY disappointed, because it feels as if she's the only character that they made MAJOR alterations too. It had to happen to my character. Thanks for the information. I take it you're a Helena player as well then right?
Another question. Why does it seem like she's the only character being penalized for the way she force techs, when other characters can do the same or better?
Allan Paris
Well-Known Member
Please ask this question in the Helena sub forums it has no place in this thread. This is the tier list thread and match ups are being discussed.