DOA5U The Official Tier List with Discussion Thread

[Yurlungur]

Helena?!?!?!?!? (She gets around Sarah pretty easily, actually. That is not a great match up for Sarah, IMO)

when she's in helena's face it gets hard for helena but in a neutral game is where she really shines against her , that's what i meant by tools

 

[Brute]

well...that's cause you're an eliot player and he doesn't have tools to deal with sarah

When does Eliot have the tools to deal with anything?

 

[Requiem]

when she's in helena's face it gets hard for helena but in a neutral game is where she really shines against her , that's what i meant by tools

I don't think either is true at all. Helena's neutral numbers work out fine against Sarah, and BKO duck has an easier time with Sarah's mid than any of the other speedier mids save Pai (those mids are sometimes not fun for Helena, but with those follow ups? Not at all). She does better in range than Sarah, and she gets around the frame traps reliably.

 

[Brute]

he does have pretty much every tool outside of an OH.;

He has expert holds? 11 frame mid? Insane crushes? Super-footsies? Tons of quick lows that open you up on NH? He's a reasonable weight class?

Where is this Eliot? He sounds awesome.

 

[Yurlungur]

I don't think either is true at all. Helena's neutral numbers work out fine against Sarah, and BKO duck has an easier time with Sarah's mid than any of the other speedier mids save Pai. She does better in range than Sarah, and she gets around the frame traps reliably.

i meant shines for helena not sarah, whoops

 

[Yurlungur]

he's a solid character.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

i meant shines for helena not sarah, whoops

Regardless, Sarah is not a major issue (nor an issue) for Helena. Sarah is weak to good hi crushes and most things that will just evade her strikes (and things that can lead into her +frame traps).

 

[StrikerSashi]

He has expert holds? 11 frame mid? Insane crushes? Super-footsies? Tons of quick lows that open you up on NH? He's a reasonable weight class?

Where is this Eliot? He sounds awesome.

I mentioned all of that already. :v His footsies is fine, though. He's got a decent kbd and he's got a lot of strikes that move him forward.

What do you do when Eliot stuns you? You lose half your life 'cause that's how he works. :v

 

[Yurlungur]

Regardless, Sarah is not a major issue (nor an issue) for Helena. Sarah is weak to good hi crushes and most things that will just evade her strikes (and things that can lead into her +frame traps).

sarah is an issue when she gets up right in helena's face, that's what i meant

 

[iHajinShinobi]

Just to clarify, footsies are not character specific, they are specific to a player.

 

[Yurlungur]

What do you do when Eliot stuns you? You lose half your life 'cause that's how he works. :v

spam 4h

 

[iHajinShinobi]

sarah is an issue when she gets up right in helena's face, that's what i meant

Sarah is not an issue in CQC for Ayane or Helena. You are playing the match up wrong if you believe it to be fact.

 

[StrikerSashi]

He has attacks on 3 other levels that stun fairly, a 120 damage launcher throw, and a 68 damage reset throw. Holding mid isn't gonna save you. :v

 

[Brute]

I mentioned all of that already. :v His footsies is fine, though. He's got a decent kbd and he's got a lot of strikes that move him forward.

Which is why I'm confused as to why you think he's decent.

What do you do when Eliot stuns you? You lose half your life 'cause that's how he works. :v

I Izuna hold him. Or I wait until he's done, receive less damage than I would from other characters who are way harder to predict and have a way easier time putting you in stun, exit the situation without having to worry about a super-threatening vortex and move on. Compared to basically everyone else, his stun game doesn't scare me.

 

[David Gregg]

I know I've been complaining about Eliot being garbage for the last month or so in locals, but I don't actually think any particular matchup is that bad for him. Like Christie and Gen Fu are obviously dumb, but he does have pretty much every tool outside of an OH. He's basically Gen Fu if he were fair. And slow. Very, very slow. So slow. ;_;
He's got 8P, 3P, 66K, 1K, which are all very good in stun. It's fairly hard to guess what he's gonna do next, and the threat of a HiCH 236T (easily 110+, even on heavy) makes it pretty risky to hold high/mid against him (especially 'cause his full optimal combo damage barely does more than his throw). 66P+K and 236K are fairly strong range tools, even though they obviously don't track. 2H+K is a low with pretty good range and crushes. 3P+K is fairly consistent as a crush and gives a good stun on NH. He stole Gen Fu's reset throw, too (45 damage, 10f, with +10? Godlike). He has Gen Fu's reset 2T, too, but better. His parries don't guarantee a launch, but you do get stun entry with 3K which is great for him 'cause his stun game is where he's actually decent. The only thing I would give a real complaint about is that he's super light (why?), he's got a 14f mid (outside of FC 3P), and his mid holds (both kick and punch) are about as good as Pai's low punch hold. He doesn't do damage (outside of throws), he has fairly limited tracking (pretty much kick string enders, H+K, and 4K), and has a hard time stopping the opponent's offense.
He's not bad. He's just exactly how I would nerf Gen Fu. No anything, all mixup. He's above average if you manage to stun the opponent. It's just that you have to commit hard to get that stun. Meanwhile, his own way of starting offense is pretty much all defensive (parry, crush, whiff punish) so his offense isn't overwhelming. He has to wait his turn, but once he gets it, he's a solid character.

To sum it up though, you need to play defensively and work twice as hard as most other characters while still lacking the speed he deserves. Not to mention TN took away good tools he had from vanilla 5 (H+K, 6P+K, ...). If you think he is above average now try playing him in vanilla 5 and you'll see he's worse off. :/

 

[iHajinShinobi]

Which is why I'm confused as to why you think he's decent.


I Izuna hold him. Or I wait until he's done, receive less damage than I would from other characters who are way harder to predict and have a way easier time putting you in stun, exit the situation without having to worry about a super-threatening vortex and move on. Compared to basically everyone else, his stun game doesn't scare me.

Eliot's 214T is a vortex lol. You do have to respect it.

 

[StrikerSashi]

Which is why I'm confused as to why you think he's decent.


I Izuna hold him. Or I wait until he's done, receive less damage than I would from other characters who are way harder to predict and have a way easier time putting you in stun, exit the situation without having to worry about a super-threatening vortex and move on. Compared to basically everyone else, his stun game doesn't scare me.

I think he's decent 'cause he has a niche and he's good at it. He's not a good character in general, but he has something that he's good at. It's just that there's another character who does everything he does, but a lot better.

As for holding him... Well, like I said, he has two of the scariest throws in the game. Plus, he has lots of ways of ending his stun game short (put himself at +5 to +12 with a bad stun which he has a lot of :v) and put you in a situation where you have to guess between a tracking mid kick and a reset throw and start over the stun game.

To sum it up though, you need to play defensively and work twice as hard as most other characters while still lacking the speed he deserves. Not to mention TN took away good tools he had from vanilla 5 (H+K, 6P+K, ...). If you think he is above average now try playing him in vanilla 5 and you'll see he's worse off. :/

I don't think he's above average. He's terrible. I just think that if I had to choose which character just stunned me, I wouldn't choose Eliot.

 

[Brute]

Eliot's 214T is a vortex lol. You do have to respect it.

Read what I said again. That was referring to "if I wait until he's done," ie: I let him play out his stun game and launch/ground me. Obviously it's more complex than that, but what I'm saying is that he doesn't have a perpetual vortex comparable to Helena and the like with incredible oki.

 

[Yurlungur]

Sarah is not an issue in CQC for Ayane or Helena. You are playing the match up wrong if you believe it to be fact.

Well...i'm aware ayane doesn't care at that distance but for helena the threat of 2p becomes very apparent. All of helena's moves that do crush have a bit of start up except p+k in the crush department(still loses to 2p). sarah can also throw out 3p(which unless i'm in bokuho i have to deal with and it loses to her 4p+k and 2p) so i do need to back myself up into neutral again in order to get away from sarah's more threatening tools

 

[Brute]

I think he's decent 'cause he has a niche and he's good at it.

What niche is that? Every niche he has someone else has but better. And more.

He's not a good character in general, but he has something that he's good at.

Everyone has something, but that doesn't mean it's compensating for numerous other shortcomings.

As for holding him... Well, like I said, he has two of the scariest throws in the game. Plus, he has lots of ways of ending his stun game short (put himself at +5 to +12 with a bad stun which he has a lot of :v) and put you in a situation where you have to guess between a tracking mid kick and a reset throw.

Which isn't anything exclusive to him. Other people are doing this kind of thing and they're doing it better.