DOA5U The Official Tier List with Discussion Thread

[Brute]

2p leaves him at zero and instant crushes. That's a good tool.

You said he had two of these "generic 2P" options. What is the other?

2f+k stuns crushes and tracks. So yeah

Yeah, it crushes high. You said he had a tracking low crush that stuns on NH.
Christie also has this, btw, though it derives from strings. Nevertheless, given the speed of Ryu's 2H+K and the potential for even non-tracking strings to re-track an SSing opponent, I don't consdier Ryu having any huge advantage here that Christie has no comparable access to.

Lol at 3k mixups. By mixups I mean being able to force a neutral situation is very useful.

Not as useful as other things. For example, I would take PP4P2P functioning like Christie's PPPP2P over his standalone 2P in a heartbeat.

Believe it or not Ryu and christie actually play similar once they get a stun.

Can't say I do. =/

 

[iHajinShinobi]

Go slow against a fast-striking character...

Sounds legit.

Yes, being patient is legit, it is a key factor to Ayane's play. And as Bushido said, patience doesn't mean going slow.

@Brute Majestic didn't imply two generic 2P options. He specifically said;

I know both characters well. At least u have generic 2p options and mixup. As well as a tracking low crush that stuns on normal hit.

 

[MajesticBlue]

Yes hajin got what I said. Messed up on my terminology I meant high crush not low crush. Was in a rush. Honestly I have never hit a good player with 2F+k variations. Plus her low punches that stun on normal hit grant only like plus 3. Not that great when you consider how many chances you have to be held. Imo when something takes that many hits to come out in a string it is gimmicky.
I agree that ryus 4p2p or 1k should stun again. The game has changed too much though so even +1 on hit would be awesome.

His 2f+k should be used more as an option selecting tool or maybe when they block too much depending on there reflexes. Either way it's more useful for opening people up then the garbage known as 66k.

 

[Brute]

@Brute Majestic didn't imply two generic 2P options. He specifically said;

Oh, I guess I must have misread that. My mistake.

Yes hajin got what I said. Messed up on my terminology I meant high crush not low crush. Was in a rush. Honestly I have never hit a good player with 2F+k variations.

Nor have I. Hayabusa's 2H+K is quite slow and usually held on reaction. Especially if chained from 1P.

Plus her low punches that stun on normal hit grant only like plus 3.

+3 when you have an 11 frame mid grants you an 8 frame mid.

Not that great when you consider how many chances you have to be held. Imo when something takes that many hits to come out in a string it is gimmicky.

Keep in mind that Hayabsua is basically all gimmicks. It's just whether or not your gimmicks are useful. In this case, they are.

I agree that ryus 4p2p or 1k should stun again. The game has changed too much though so even +1 on hit would be awesome.

Honestly, 4P2P is way too fast to be +on NH, imo. Especially since you can get it from just 4P2P. If they went that route, they should slow it down a tad, imo.
I still say make 1K / PP2K a hit throw and let that serve as his low pressure mix-up.

His 2f+k should be used more as an option selecting tool or maybe when they block too much depending on there reflexes. Either way it's more useful for opening people up then the garbage known as 66k.

66K was actually useful back in vanilla. Then again, so were a lot of Hayabusa's tools that no longer are

 

[MajesticBlue]

Meh. I disagree with most of that so I will just leave it at that. Since chances are I still can't convince anybody to agree with me. Besides I am pretty sure I covered this in depth before anyways.

 

[XZero264]

Plus her low punches that stun on normal hit grant only like plus 3.

Holy balls that's stupid. Best options for the characters I use leave them at +1 or +2 and don't stun on NH (and the +1s tend to be the slowest characters in the game, can't be having frame advantage with characters that need it).

 

[Brute]

Holy balls that's stupid. Best options for the characters I use leave them at +1 or +2 and don't stun on NH (and the +1s tend to be the slowest characters in the game, can't be having frame advantage with characters that need it).

Ryu's 3K2K actually leaves him at negative frames if SE. Literally his only NH lows are 2P (neutral), 33K (lol) and 2H+K. But these are apparently somehow better than getting +3 on a NH low from a 9 frame jab string which in turn grants you an 8 frame mid.

 

[Matt Ponton]

I remember when Bass' 2K and Bayman's 1K (and string variants) were -8 on normal hit.

+ anything is a god send, and I believe Mila has her 2P at +1 NH and 1P at +2~+3 depending on distance.

 

[MajesticBlue]

It is the fifth hit in a string.. That long of an animation really makes it a lot less viable. Imo let is better because the situation all happens in a lot smaller time frame. Also let's say my opponent starts to over block. Eventually I have to return to my sub par rhrows because of my lack of lows. At least ryus throws can make people duck or do something.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

I remember when Bass' 2K and Bayman's 1K (and string variants) were -8 on normal hit.

+ anything is a god send, and I believe Mila has her 2P at +1 NH and 1P at +2~+3 depending on distance.

This.

I have some frame traps from +1 to +5 hardly anyone even realizes that I take full advantage of with Ayane on block and neutral hit. I don't know what kind of rewards you guys are looking for, but it always sounds like you guys want a lot more than you should gain. Learn to make due with what you have.

 

[MajesticBlue]

I don't want more reward. I am saying how often am I gonna hit you with a highly choreographed move. That is all. There is a super long time from the first p to that last 2p. The way I see things is who cares how many plus frames something is if landing it fairly rare. It is a great tool but not something I would think you can land all that often. My gut says if you are getting hit with it or its mixup you are doing something wrong. I am not asking for more frame advantage or anything.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

EDIT: Misread. And having plus frame advantage (or +0) matters more than you think.

 

[MajesticBlue]

Being able to cause a plus 0 anytime you want is amazing. You can use anything as a trap if you are creative. I used to use some highly negative setups with Bayman for high counter holds. I have studied the art of frame data very in depth and I agree. I'm from the doa 4 days too and those tiny traps and knowing everybody's fastest options dictated the entire yomi of the game imo.

 

[Tenryuga]

Neutral on hit 2Ps especially if they are fast are the one of best things you could ask for in this game. You can use them to setup counter hits and against faster characters you can condition a predictable poke response the same applies to +1 vs these characters where usually their best offensive option is reduced to a jab if your character is fast enough.

I'd actually like to see some jabs get similar treatment and get neutral on block to -1 (-2 or 3 for faster characters). Ayane's P is -1 on block and it allows her some dumb shit. She will have a 11 frame BTP after this to shut down 12i attacks and since she is BT she has her high crushes for those that try to jab out of her -1. Would be cool if other characters had situations like that.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

Neutral on hit 2Ps especially if they are fast are the one of best things you could ask for in this game. You can use them to setup counter hits and against faster characters you can condition a predictable poke response the same applies to +1 vs these characters where usually their best offensive option is reduced to a jab if your character is fast enough.

I'd actually like to see some jabs get similar treatment and get neutral on block to -1 (-2 or 3 for faster characters). Ayane's P is -1 on block and it allows her some dumb shit. She will have a 11 frame BTP after this to shut down 12i attacks and since she is BT she has her high crushes for those that try to jab out of her -1. Would be cool if other characters had situations like that.

Naw no one else needs to be like Ayane. Fuck all that.

 

[SeraphimJester]

May I ask how Helena has gotten to A Tier. Wasn't she fairly low in DOA5?

 

[UncleKitchener]

I've been away for a while and just got back and noticed some changes in the tier list with Bass;

vs Alpha 4-6
vs Ayane 4-6
vs Ein 6-4
vs Lisa 6-4

Anyone care to explain what makes these matchups what they are? I must've missed the discussions.

 

[Brute]

May I ask how Helena has gotten to A Tier. Wasn't she fairly low in DOA5?

No.

 

[Force_of_Nature]

I've been away for a while and just got back and noticed some changes in the tier list with Bass;

vs Ayane 4-6

Anyone care to explain what makes these matchups what they are? I must've missed the discussions.

I think this MU revolves around Bass' relative difficulty in approaching Ayane. And if Bass does get in close range on Ayane, she's faster than him anyway and can stuff him easily with P's, 6P's and 2P's. However, Bass can punish Ayane fairly easily with the i6 6T in order to start his vicious offense. Though if she plays fairly safely and zones regularly, he can have his work cut out for him.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

I think this MU revolves around Bass' relative difficulty in approaching Ayane. And if Bass does get in close range on Ayane, she's faster than him anyway and can stuff him easily with P's, 6P's and 2P's. However, Bass can punish Ayane fairly easily with the i6 6T in order to start his vicious offense. Though if she plays fairly safely and zones regularly, he can have his work cut out for him.

Ayane doesn't need 6P or 6K in this match up at all, unless she gets a critical stun. Neutral P and 2P are more than enough to keep him defensive and in check. If he tries holding one, he's open to 6P and 6K then.