System Throw Punishment and the Throw Punish Project Initiative

[UncleKitchener]

Throughout the years, I've noticed a major issue with both new and experienced players ignoring or forgetting to punish unsafe moves.

This is major deterrent to players wanting to improve themselves, not knowing that failing to punish would result in a potential loss of a round.

========
Guaranteed punishment comes in two flavors:

Throw Punishment and Strike/OH Punishment

Throw punishment involves using throws during a recovery of a blocked strike to land a guaranteed command throw and change momentum. Throwing a move during recovery would take advantage of the extended hurt box during recovery, which gives you more range to your throw by leading your opponent into your throw.

The way you determine that a move is punishable is by comparing the strikes disadvantage on block -let's say -8- with the startup of your throw -7i + 1 for the active frame to connect with said move- to determine whether a move is punishable or not.


Another method of punishment would be with strikes and this method uses the same principles as throw punishment. The only difference is that you are required to add an extra frame to your startup since the game takes an extra frame to determine what kind of strike you were trying to do. Here's how it works:


Player inputs buttons on frame 1 The game engine determines whether the player had plinked their inputs in case he/she was trying to do a multi-button input (, ). This takes place on frame 1The player's move is a jab 10 (2) 13. The move startup begins at frame, which is usually one frame late.The move's active frames connect on the 12th frame since the player pressed a button.

By taking this into consideration, the guard disadvantage on the blocked move needs to be at -12 for you to punish it with a 10i move.
========

While it's easy to figure out how to punish thanks to the detailed practice mode in this game, there is still a massive amount of data to go through for the entire cast.

Previously, there have been attempts at detailing information related to safety and throw punishment, but there is still nothing covering the whole cast itself:

http://www.freestepdodge.com/threads/better-safe-than-sorry-gen-fus-block-dis-advantage.5511/

http://www.freestepdodge.com/threads/the-blue-flash-doa5lr-jacky-guide.5846/

http://www.freestepdodge.com/threads/the-butterfly-kunoichi-doa5u-ayane-breakdown.2940/

I myself created a project for my own personal benefit and to assist other Bass player by covering the cast and compiling a punishment list:

http://www.freestepdodge.com/threads/bass-throw-punish-thread.5429/



For this reason, I have started the Throw Punishment Project in order to cover the entire cast and their respective punishments in any given situation, covering both throw and strike punishment:

http://www.freestepdodge.com/threads/the-throw-punish-megathread.6064/


For those interested, please join in to help out with this project and find ways of punishing unsafe moves.

 

[b-bombs]

So many likes for this post! Great work @UncleKitchener!

 

[UncleKitchener]

So many likes for this post! Great work @UncleKitchener!

That's cool and all, but I'm mostly looking for players who want to help out in gathering data and looking for errors and inconsistencies. If you're interested, I'll tag you whenever I start working on new characters or need help.

 

[Darkslay]

Awesome idea, i had written Jann Lee's punishment information in his wiki a long time ago, admittedly a project i dropped but that i will continue working on regardless, this is a perfect place to post this now. I'll also gladly help with any help needed.

Here is the wiki's information transcripted:

Punishment

Neutral
- 6 and beyond:
- 8 and beyond:
- 11 and beyond:
- 13 and beyond:
- 14 and beyond: ,
- 15 and beyond: ,
- 16 and beyond: ,
- 17 and beyond:
- 18 and beyond: (possible followup),
- 19 and beyond:
- 20 and beyond:
- 21 and beyond: , ,
- 24 and beyond: ,

Low punishes
- 6 and beyond:
- 8 and beyond:
- 12 and beyond:
- 14 and beyond: , (while crouching)
- 15 and beyond: , , ,
- 16 and beyond:
- 17 and beyond: ,
- 19 and beyond:
- 21 and beyond: ,

 

[UncleKitchener]

Okay, I'll tag you when help is needed.

 

[Tempest]

I can help with Phase, Lisa or Kokoro.

 

[Project Bokuho]

Good stuff! I'll help contribute with Helena.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

I think my list on Ayane is still in your punishment thread for Bass. If needs updating, just let me know. I'm up for Hayate and Momiji as well.

 

[Project Bokuho]

How to throw punish with v.s. the others

Neutral
+7 advantage and beyond: (5 frame throw)
+9 advantage and beyond: (7 frame throw)
+12 advantage and beyond: (10 frame throw)
+14 advantage and beyond:
(12 frame throw)
(12 frame throw putting Helena into BKO stance), BKO (BKO is guaranteed if opponent is touching the wall or object)

Crouching
+7 advantage and beyond: (5 frame throw)
+9 advantage and beyond: (7 frame throw)

 

[UncleKitchener]

I think my list on Ayane is still in your punishment thread for Bass. If needs updating, just let me know. I'm up for Hayate and Momiji as well.

Sorry, I don't know what list you're talking about (might have been a long time ago), but if you wish to help, I've already made one in the new thread:
http://www.freestepdodge.com/threads/the-throw-punish-megathread.6064/#post-283807

Keep in mind, this is meant to be a reference list for the whole cast and I've done the major bulk of the work for a few hours regarding throw and strike related stuff but there may still be some inconsistencies. Let me know if I've made any mistakes or haven't covered some things. Not sure if really count, maybe I'll create a separate section, but I would think that's more of a match-up knowledge than necessarily a punishment topic.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

Sorry, I don't know what list you're talking about (might have been a long time ago), but if you wish to help, I've already made one in the new thread:
http://www.freestepdodge.com/threads/the-throw-punish-megathread.6064/#post-283807.

It was in your old DOA5 Throw Punish thread, but looking at your more recent threads for 5U and LR, you seem to have most of these things intact. I don't really think there is much for me to contribute here. Glad to see you are still keeping this well organized though.

 

[UncleKitchener]

It was in your old DOA5 Throw Punish thread, but looking at your more recent threads for 5U and LR, you seem to have most of these things intact. I don't really think there is much for me to contribute here. Glad to see you are still keeping this well organized though.

I just went back and checked the thread from 2013. Your list was probably the only real contribution to the project I had but I scrapped everything when I started with a new format with Ultimate. Testing was done from scratch and I went through all characters and thier moves individually so it helped me better understand the cast.


The new format instead puts throws into tiers (startup) with standing command throws (3 tiers), neutral, low throws (2 tiers) and strike punishment.

 

[Project Bokuho]

How to throw punish with v.s. the others

Neutral
+7 advantage and beyond: (5 frame throw)
+9 advantage and beyond:

• (7 frame throw; is guaranteed after this throw)
• (7 frame throw)

+12 advantage and beyond:

• (10 frame throw; is guaranteed after this throw)
• (10 frame throw)
• (10 frame throw)

+14 advantage and beyond: (12 frame throw)

Crouching
+7 advantage and beyond: (5 frame throw)

 

[UncleKitchener]

The lists are now complete. Only thing left to do are Brad and jann Lee 's lists. I can't paste links on my phone on fsd for some reason, but the link to the thread is in the OP.

 

[Allan Paris]

The problem is the life bar (300 pts) that turns players away from throw punishing consistently. The current system changes makes throw punishment bland. Landing a stun is a lot better and rewards a player way more than throw punishment. Unless your throw punish opens up the stun game. This is why you see most (damn near all) players constantly attacking and only throw punishing when they think it will kill or bring their opponent extremely close to death. The direction the game as evolved in is the cause for this so it is what it is.

Another problem is the recovery on strings along with no guard stun. It is starting to get worse with the implementation of new characters. Rig for example has a few attacks and strings that cause a problem for proper throw punishment. 8P is -8, covers a good deal of range, and causes a deep stun. It also recovers just a quick as a poke does for most characters (6P recovery 21i+). You also don't know or recognize that you blocked an unsafe attack to even throw it on reaction.

PPK6K (I think that is what the sting is) ends with a tracking mid kick, it is -13, recovers just a fast a poke does, and has no guard stun. This string is worse than 8P because it is -13 which is more of a disadvantage and still can't be properly reacted to to throw it when it's blocked. On top of that, A TRACKING STRING CAN BE USED AS A LEGIT POKE.

Mila and Marie are doing the same thing. In their defense, Leifang and Helena have both been doing this with at least 1 attack since DOA4. Both of those characters have picked up a couple more since then, while the newer characters are running wild with it.

It's hard to tell someone to throw punish when more than a few characters are breaking the rules for them to be properly punished. Along with a system change that makes throw punishment a slap on the wrist unless you are using a grappling character, or a character that opens up the stun game with a throw.

I have a notebook where I put together all of the character's throw punishment abilities stopping before or after Marie Rose. I will look for it and post it. I put all the data together awhile ago. I do hate to be negative in a positive thread, but I am only being real and honest as bad as it may look....... I'll go back to my hole.

 

[Lulu]

Another problem is the recovery on strings along with no guard stun. It is starting to get worse with the implementation of new characters. Rig for example has a few attacks and strings that cause a problem for proper throw punishment. 8P is -8, covers a good deal of range, and causes a deep stun. It also recovers just a quick as a poke does for most characters (6P recovery 21i+). You also don't know or recognize that you blocked an unsafe attack to even throw it on reaction.

Yep..... I try not to use it as an excuse to get pitty but yeah its really difficult.... but the thing that bugs me the most is the Ludicrous disadvantage from Neutral Throw Breaks, unlike Combo Throws, you don't have any control over neutral throws to ensure they don't get Broken easily...... so you catch your opponent on a Semi Safe move and for attempting do the right thing you might wind up at -10 when your throws get easily broken.

Its very discouraging.

 

[UncleKitchener]

http://www.freestepdodge.com/threads/the-throw-punish-megathread.6064/

The lists are now complete.

The problem is the life bar (300 pts) that turns players away from throw punishing consistently. The current system changes makes throw punishment bland. Landing a stun is a lot better and rewards a player way more than throw punishment. Unless your throw punish opens up the stun game. This is why you see most (damn near all) players constantly attacking and only throw punishing when they think it will kill or bring their opponent extremely close to death. The direction the game as evolved in is the cause for this so it is what it is.

Another problem is the recovery on strings along with no guard stun. It is starting to get worse with the implementation of new characters. Rig for example has a few attacks and strings that cause a problem for proper throw punishment. 8P is -8, covers a good deal of range, and causes a deep stun. It also recovers just a quick as a poke does for most characters (6P recovery 21i+). You also don't know or recognize that you blocked an unsafe attack to even throw it on reaction.

PPK6K (I think that is what the sting is) ends with a tracking mid kick, it is -13, recovers just a fast a poke does, and has no guard stun. This string is worse than 8P because it is -13 which is more of a disadvantage and still can't be properly reacted to to throw it when it's blocked. On top of that, A TRACKING STRING CAN BE USED AS A LEGIT POKE.

Mila and Marie are doing the same thing. In their defense, Leifang and Helena have both been doing this with at least 1 attack since DOA4. Both of those characters have picked up a couple more since then, while the newer characters are running wild with it.

It's hard to tell someone to throw punish when more than a few characters are breaking the rules for them to be properly punished. Along with a system change that makes throw punishment a slap on the wrist unless you are using a grappling character, or a character that opens up the stun game with a throw.

I have a notebook where I put together all of the character's throw punishment abilities stopping before or after Marie Rose. I will look for it and post it. I put all the data together awhile ago. I do hate to be negative in a positive thread, but I am only being real and honest as bad as it may look....... I'll go back to my hole.

Alan, I've read through your post and I understand where you're coming from, but it shouldn't deter people from using throw punishment regardless. Once a player visually recognizes an unsafe move and are sufficiently used to identifying and reacting to it in time, even if a move's recovery is less than the startup, the can still attempt a punish immediately from block stun by simply holding down a direction and spamming the throw button combo/macro.

To complain about not being able to punish a move based on reaction time is not good enough as punishment is not some free card for momentum shift. In other games like Tekken where punishment requires better reactions and specific tools, you need to have been playing the game for a longer period to know what to punish with what. In VF you need to know which moves to use especially if you want recovery counter moves like counter-hit natural combos to launcher. In DOA, you're given a very simple solution to simple choose a throw with either a single direction or a simple motion. If you are having trouble identifying moves, then that is a matchup related issue.

Also, I feel like you've left out the real problem characters when it comes to throw punish and those are Sarah and Christie as their block stun recovery and their actual move recovery doesn't comply with how much the rest of the cast put you in block stun. Rig may have a few moves and Mile might have 6PP, but their numbers or their number of deceptive moves don't compare. Even with that, this is still a matchup issue and nothing wrong with the game. With enough familiarization, every character can be punished consistently. People don't punish Bass' P+K because of bad reactions, but it's actually due to being unfamiliar with a matchup and what you can do.
Matchup shouldn't be about string or mixup recognition anymore; punishment is also a major factor being ignored and not practiced.

Another point I want to make and I feel like it's very vital to address is forgoing throw punishment in favor of counter hit fishing. While it's understandable why someone might go for this option, it's still a gamble and it's still more dangerous than throw punishment, unless it's against semi-safe moves with neutral throws where your opponent can option select. While gambling may be the name of the game, not wanting something guaranteed is questionable logic even if you play Christie or Kasumi with below average throw damage. The positive aspect of throwing is that you knock your opponent down and can start pressuring them with wakeup options and a chance to hold wakeup kicks.

Another major advantage of throw punishment in this case is that you put a psychological burden on the opponent for making the mistake of testing you. If you don't show your matchup knowledge, you'll be abused.

However, I do like the idea of a list for throw punish ability. That'll give some good data on what each character is capable of.

 

[Allan Paris]

@UncleKitchener ( this may be TL;DR but hey lol)

I recognize when I block 8P from Rig from Rig, etc. Even when I am looking for it. Spamming on the throw button does not work either. That is something I have been tried. You have to be prepared to throw immediately after blocking it. Spamming/mashing it will get you Hi Counter blown, the throw coming out late, or not all. So it's not match-up issues, it's the tweaking of system pertaining to the health, but more so leaning on the characters breaking the rules for throw punishment.

I am one of the few players praised for my punishing skill-sets, coming from the older payers that have played me to most of the newer guys running things now. I do not have match-up issues with what I am explaining. I have played Hoodless extensively, and with Yeager enough to know. I am not punishing the bulk of what they do. The options that can come from PP is enough to make any player pause long enough to miss the punish on a -13 string with godly recovery and no block stun for you recognize you just block something. From range there are several options to watch for as well, and consistently missing the punish on 8P is plausible.

The characters and attacks I have used are all examples. The two you mentioned are in the category as well, I know of the foolishness that comes with blocking them too. I suggest you go through Rig's entire move list like I have so you can see the bs the character is capable of doing. That type of recovery is everywhere for him. Along with safety and plus frames to boot, good luck with consistently or even successfully punishing him. It's also everywhere for the newer characters, and some of the older ones are growing with it as well.

If any of the attacks I mentioned land on hit, a lot of damage can come from them or messed up situations. After getting blown up for over a quarter to half my life bar for reaching after one of those ignorant attacks. What am I to do...... Hit. The. Buttons. After blocking them because the logical way of dealing with them is highly subject to get me killed.

Mila's 3H+K is suppose to be a low throw, yet, at close ranges and for damn sure mid to far you are not throwing it. The punishment on that attack is so inconsistent that the players that use the attack either hold the counter poke that is going to come after blocking it, or mash out of it. I have no problem with punishing Bass' P+K. I can tell I blocked it and I know when a player wants or should be using it. He also has no other options to worry about attack-wise while in range for P+K.

Kasumi's throw punishment is average. Christie, Jann Lee, and and the VF characters excluding Akria are below average, for examples. To get a knock down in DOA is not good as you are making it out to be, unless you are Rig or a character that has the ground throw OS. We will have to agree to disagree on the level of pressure you get as an offender after a knock down.

Overall, I agree with you, my good man, on the importance of throw punishment. I get what you are saying entirely. Throw punishing is the go to option you want, and should be relying on with how this game is designed. I stand firmly behind that principle. However, with it's current iteration the principle is becoming moot. Just this past FR that Emann won, I watched him and SR exchange nothing but Counter Hits in their matches. Clearly hitting the button is more rewarding than throw punishing in this game, one of them won the tournament, and the other placed top 3 or 5. The cream-of-the-crop players completely disregard it unless it will kill or bring their opponent close to death. That is by no means disrespect the 2 players I mentioned or the rest of the guys. They are playing the game exactly how it should be played given the options before them. They are champs and reigning champs because of it.

I found my notes. I just have to make the thread. It stops at Marie Rose. I do not care enough to do it for Tengu or the the new characters. So when I post it, someone else can copy the work I did and I will update the OP with it.

 

[UncleKitchener]

@UncleKitchener ( this may be TL;DR but hey lol)

I recognize when I block 8P from Rig from Rig, etc. Even when I am looking for it. Spamming on the throw button does not work either. That is something I have been tried. You have to be prepared to throw immediately after blocking it. Spamming/mashing it will get you Hi Counter blown, the throw coming out late, or not all. So it's not match-up issues, it's the tweaking of system pertaining to the health, but more so leaning on the characters breaking the rules for throw punishment.

I am one of the few players praised for my punishing skill-sets, coming from the older payers that have played me to most of the newer guys running things now. I do not have match-up issues with what I am explaining. I have played Hoodless extensively, and with Yeager enough to know. I am not punishing the bulk of what they do. The options that can come from PP is enough to make any player pause long enough to miss the punish on a -13 string with godly recovery and no block stun for you recognize you just block something. From range there are several options to watch for as well, and consistently missing the punish on 8P is plausible.

The characters and attacks I have used are all examples. The two you mentioned are in the category as well, I know of the foolishness that comes with blocking them too. I suggest you go through Rig's entire move list like I have so you can see the bs the character is capable of doing. That type of recovery is everywhere for him. Along with safety and plus frames to boot, good luck with consistently or even successfully punishing him. It's also everywhere for the newer characters, and some of the older ones are growing with it as well.

If any of the attacks I mentioned land on hit, a lot of damage can come from them or messed up situations. After getting blown up for over a quarter to half my life bar for reaching after one of those ignorant attacks. What am I to do...... Hit. The. Buttons. After blocking them because the logical way of dealing with them is highly subject to get me killed.

Mila's 3H+K is suppose to be a low throw, yet, at close ranges and for damn sure mid to far you are not throwing it. The punishment on that attack is so inconsistent that the players that use the attack either hold the counter poke that is going to come after blocking it, or mash out of it. I have no problem with punishing Bass' P+K. I can tell I blocked it and I know when a player wants or should be using it. He also has no other options to worry about attack-wise while in range for P+K.

Kasumi's throw punishment is average. Christie, Jann Lee, and and the VF characters excluding Akria are below average, for examples. To get a knock down in DOA is not good as you are making it out to be, unless you are Rig or a character that has the ground throw OS. We will have to agree to disagree on the level of pressure you get as an offender after a knock down.

Overall, I agree with you, my good man, on the importance of throw punishment. I get what you are saying entirely. Throw punishing is the go to option you want, and should be relying on with how this game is designed. I stand firmly behind that principle. However, with it's current iteration the principle is becoming moot. Just this past FR that Emann won, I watched him and SR exchange nothing but Counter Hits in their matches. Clearly hitting the button is more rewarding than throw punishing in this game, one of them won the tournament, and the other placed top 3 or 5. The cream-of-the-crop players completely disregard it unless it will kill or bring their opponent close to death. That is by no means disrespect the 2 players I mentioned or the rest of the guys. They are playing the game exactly how it should be played given the options before them. They are champs and reigning champs because of it.

I found my notes. I just have to make the thread. It stops at Marie Rose. I do not care enough to do it for Tengu or the the new characters. So when I post it, someone else can copy the work I did and I will update the OP with it.

I'm sorry, but I'm still confused here. Which environment is this happening? Is this online of offline? Are you on laggy monitors?

I'm in no way trying to oversell myself herre as someone with good punishment fundamentals but I've been playing against Rig players before (one of them even lived with me for almost a year) and I don't think he's that bad, so I think you're exaggerating a bit here and I can't be sympathetic.

I actually went through testing his entire movelist for the punishment thread as he was the last character I used for testing, so I've gone through every single moves, checking for blockstun duration and safety based on range (close and maximum range). I'm giving you my opinion as an honest person who has gone through every single move in the game for punishment purposes (exceptions being barricade transition moves) and I honestly don't think Rig is that bad.

Again, I can't advise anyone else to consider button pressing a more 'logical' punishment when you can already get guaranteed damage. If more people testify to this with good convincing reasons, then it would be okay to say otherwise.

Also, I see no problem with the example you mentioned with Mila's 3H+K. If someone decides to use it every once in a while, then it could catch someone off guard once, but you can't be falling for the same thing multiple times. Also, I definitely don't consider that move hard to punish.

I find your your analysis of VF characters excluding Akira having below-average throw punishment interesting. However, I strongly disagree with the case of Jacky. His throw game is very competent. Everything he has is decent and useful in any situation. He has good wall and ground throws and does very good damage with those on HC.

But please explain why you disagree that a knockdown is not useful after a throw? Is it because of wake up kicks or can it be character specific?

I find you using two very good players as support for your argument sensible, but what about Japanese players and their play style and their consistency with punishment? We all know by now that US is not the center of the universe when it comes to DOA and this was obviously pointed out by Kwiggle that majority of Japanese players are obviously way better because of their good habits and practices. There needs to be more data to support this side of the argument that forgoing throw punishment helps in the long run.


I suggest looking up the blueviolet list for throw lists, startups and damages if you haven't already looked it up.
http://blueviolet.ninja-web.net/game/doa5lr/per/ayane2.htm

 

[iHajinShinobi]

Matchup shouldn't be about string or mixup recognition anymore; punishment is also a major factor being ignored and not practiced.

The positive aspect of throwing is that you knock your opponent down and can start pressuring them with wakeup options and a chance to hold wakeup kicks.

Another major advantage of throw punishment in this case is that you put a psychological burden on the opponent for making the mistake of testing you. If you don't show your matchup knowledge, you'll be abused.

The underlined is an absolute fact. The rest just backs it up strongly.

Players do not practice punishment, gambling guaranteed damage comes from playing online in lag. This thread is probably one of the best threads on this forum right now.