Where to next for DOA6? Diving into the mechanics found in the DOAFES Build at CouchWarriors Crossup (Australia) with Video

Berzerk!

Well-Known Member
Melbourne Australia
Main Character
Leifang
Gamertag
BerzerkDC
PSN ID
BERZERK_DC
#1
Had the opportunity to play a bunch of casuals and two small tournaments with the attendees of CouchWarriors Crossup, which was an FGC major in Australia last weekend. It was a Dragon Ball FighterZ Saga event among other things, and we had the DOAFest build of DOA6 to show the 500 strong crowd.

Going to use this thread to discuss some things that are interesting about the mechanics in the game. Managed to take some video to illustrate some of these things. Also, going to put forward changes I think they should still make to really nail this game down as one of the greats.

Overall the game is really good. Better than DOA5, and man it is beautiful. It runs nicely on 4K screens and has to be seen at full res and speed to really appreciate. Including things like dust kicking off character's feet, there are many nice details, and it is bright and vibrant. Clear heads and shoulders above the pack as far as visuals go.

Videos: DOA6 CWC DOAFest Video Playlist
Upfront questions? Happy to answer them here in this thread, FYI there was a sort of AMA on Facebook you can find here
In the video thread, there's some cool stuff shown like Christie's new moves, Helena's new bokuho sidestep, new combo mechanics, a competitive match on the build and a couple of competitive extended round casuals.

Move Lists
If you want to see move lists of characters we hadn't seen shared to now, they are in this Facebook thread

Launcher Height
The stun system isn't as important to launch heights anymore. It appears ANY stun is enough for a full height launch, what makes the difference is which launcher you use. This is really interesting. I like it because people will start to favour certain launchers and it becomes about their preferences and you can start to read them.

New "Bound" Combos
Have two examples here, one from Hitomi and one from Leifang. It looks like every character has something which will knock down from a combo, cause a bounce with a fall onto their back. If you're quick, this can be combo'd. This includes landing a Break Blow - which in turn means you can CANCEL the break blow, and relaunch the opponent.

Techniques like Fuzzy Guard work well and combine with Sidestep
Check out this video as top player from the CouchWarriors Melbourne scene AlexMD demonstrates with Diego, how you can fuzzy guard after a safe attack to avoid a throw. (Crouch dash then hit back). This allows you to duck a throw and block a mid. In this case we show what's safe vs different speeds of throws also. Then, you can see Diego fuzzy guard, then sidestep, then throw escape - and it works. Wouldn't it be great if we had throw escapes for command throws?

Ground Game isn't in place
There's no ground game in this build. This is illustrated by the video below. If the opponent doesn't tech roll, they stay on the ground, and can't be forced up.
This needs work, as there is no point in doing short combos which hard knockdown. Just go for the full combo. More on this below.

Players are getting used to meter
Getting pretty comfortable with the Break Blow, Break Hold and managing meter. Personally I tend to hold it until really needed for break hold or when I'm clear to land a break blow, but its a big part of the game. Players in the tournament would exchange back and forth with Break Hold, which introduces another level of back and forth.

Stages are beautiful, but limited
The game looks amazing. The stages are fantastic to fight in. But as of this build, they're all pretty small. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, you want danger zones and walls, the environment should be ever present. However, the hope here is that the stages will be larger and have more connected areas. The Lost Playground shows this with its breakable area into a lower area. The Ninja Village stage has an enticing view near the fence and rock wall which looks like it should extend down into another area.

WHAT CAN STILL BE IMPROVED?
  • Ground Game
    • I don't want vortex but if there's a set move that does a force wakeup and its very clear to attacker and defender thats what's happening, it would be good for the game. At the moment theres no point doing short combos with hard knockdowns, just go for damage. So you have less variety in playstyle and offensive options which will hurt the scope of hype for big comebacks and clever resets
    • Example - Lets say I have the opponent down on 40% life as Leifang.
      • If I 8K launch them, I can do 9KK, pp6PP to the wall for best damage, but then I have to deal with the opponent's wakeup kick, try to get in to neutral at even advantage, and guess again to try and finish the last 15% approx.
      • OR, I can P2P2K, or PPk-H+K, which cause hard knockdown.
      • From the hard knockdown, this should guarantee I can use H+K to knock up. The opponent can't do a wakeup kick, but they can block, duck, or attack if they predict a throw.
      • But the attacker should have the choice to shorten the combo (less damage), with the option to force up and contrinue with some advantage to try and set up another opening, and hopefully land a combo to finish the opponent, knowing I won't get blown up by a wakeup kick.
    • The suggestion here is to introduce something simple and easy to understand. One move at least per character, probably a slow move, which guarantees force wake up after only a HARD KNOCKDOWN. This removes vortex, but creates the ability to go for a reset situation
    • Competitive games need situations which provide clear follow up pressure - essentially meaty wakeups.
    • Now that we have Break Hold and great Sidesteps, players getting up at this stage have excellent tools in addition to blocking, ducking, and attacking back.
  • Command Throw Escapes
    • Once more with feeling - as above, it's time for some "brave" big boy fighting game mechanics. This would be relatively simple to implement. And here's how you to it while protecting the Triangle system:
      • If a Throw is attempted with a command ending in Forward+Throw (6T), then the Escape should be 6T.
      • If you Throw an opponent who is in performing or recovering from a Hold, it should still be unbreakable as part of the triangle system of Throws punishing Holds
      • You would be able to buffer the Throw Escape. For example, as you finish a string, hold 6+T and keep it held - a 6T throw punish would be escaped when attempted. The buffer should also be possible to initiate while simply holding the block button (Press H and hold, then press P and hold. Throw escape is buffered while held)
      • This adds to the directional mindgame and forces attackers to adapt to using a variety of throws.
    • Throw escapes are hype and won't affect low level play
    • It's incredibly in theme for DOA
  • Restrict movement at start of round (Circle only, not advance up close)
    • In a game where some characters have faster jabs than others, being able to walk into the opponents face gives some characters advantage at the start of the round. So lets just stop people moving forward past the starting positions.
    • Keep circular movement to position in the environment
  • Weaken Wakeup kicks
    • Still too dominant! They still have long range and invincibility.
    • A small tweak to active frames to be shorter, and give each character a move which blows through standing wakeup kick, and combined with a specific and clear ground game, and we will have reason to sometimes not throw one out.
    • Yes, I know holds can punish them. It's still very guess oriented and people just back off from wakeup, which slows down the game and makes it less interesting. Lets see some more options.
  • Remove the 3 Way Hold Option
    • This will split the user base in online lobbies, making matches harder to find and frustrating the players.
    • Teaches bad habits that have to be corrected before tournament play, hurting the pathway to esports acceptance
    • 4 Way is easy enough, and teaching TWO systems is much more confusing for new players
  • Fuzzy guard from Sidestep
    • As demonstrated above, you can sidestep right after a fuzzy. That's pretty cool defensive movement.
    • If we can cancel the last frames of Sidestep to reduce vulnerability to slow circulars or delayed linear strings, into a crouch dash fuzzy, you've got some exciting defensive capability.
    • Its subtle and advanced, new players won't even notice it, but it will make skilled high level play more intense.
  • Specific character improvements - Grapplers stand out as weak right now
    • Without getting into a long examination character by character which will change, there remain a few issues with grapplers. Bass is a case in point. He doesn't have a good way to get in and opponents don't fear his strikes - so they won't block long or hold. This means he can't reliably do his throws. In short, every character needs a tool to enable their playstyle.
    • Improving the ground game may help, but essentially they need to be willing to give characters at least one strong get-in move, and ground throws need to provide enough advantage to force people to "need" to block.
    • If each Grappler gets a good Guard Break move, this would be a welcome addition to the playstyle.

  • Sit Down Stuns
    • These are less prevalent - Mila 3PP, Hayate 3PP, Leifang 3P4P, this do not SDS on counter hit anymore. Hard to say if a big problem as you can launch from any stun but it's a clear nerf. Inclined to believe ways to create SDS situations should be retained.
    • Generally, having situations which are really clear as to when you can and can't respond is good for the game. Sit Down Stun? Can't counter. People appreciate that and it's good for the game.
  • Damage adjustment: Life setting lowered and Hold/Throw damage lowered for non grapplers
    • This may be controversial but years of experience with high damage fighters like Virtua Fighter tell me the below is the way to go.
    • 300 Life is a little high and rounds require a few too many setups, plus matches take a long time.
    • Strike damage should be impactful, short combos and pokes should build up as dangerous, to encourage better defence.
    • 240-270 life would work better. However, under this setting, Holds already do as much as a well crafted combo as do Throws. These should be adjusted down for strikers.
    • Grapplers throws to remain the same so they present a threat - so long as grapplers have tools to open people up.
    • Strikers like Kasumi who can threaten with strike speed should not have high damage throws. The opponent is forced to block or hold, so throw punishment is really strong. Reduce the damage of this, it rewards the striker too much, who should get damage from strikes.
    • Strike Punishment
      • Add little bit of strike punishment with specific moves to guarantee hit after blocking unsafe moves. So there is a pressure build option and not just throw punishment. Again, strategic variety.
      • Strike Punishment Example Virtua Fighter “Punishing The Cast” video series

  • Wall game
    • Wall should instill fear. Low juggle is already very good.
    • Add a Wall Slump on second attack into wall, removing Wake Up Kick
    • Now that we have Break Hold and great Sidesteps, players getting up at this stage have excellent tools in addition to blocking, ducking, and attacking back.
Hope this was interesting and useful! Will answer questions about the build played as best I can, and keen to discuss the topics of improvement. What do you all think?
 
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KasumiLover

Well-Known Bi Kasumi/Phase Fanboy ⚥
Premium Donor
Georgia
Main Character
Kasumi
#3
I have a few questions:

-How do you cancel a break blow? And does cancelling it add up to more guaranteed damage unless the opponent has meter to hold out of the follow up attacks?

-If you or anyone had hands on time with Kasumi, has she received any new moves besides 6P+K? And has she been nerfed in any way that you noticed? Like has any of her CH properties from moves like 9K been drastically toned down?

-Does Kasumi's new 6P+K have any special properties or any good uses? I looked back at what it could do and its frame data from previous game but idk if it's changed much
 
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Berzerk!

Well-Known Member
Melbourne Australia
Main Character
Leifang
Gamertag
BerzerkDC
PSN ID
BERZERK_DC
#4
I have a few questions:

-How do you cancel a break blow? And does cancelling it add up to more guaranteed damage unless the opponent has meter to hold out of the follow up attacks?

-If you or anyone had hands on time with Kasumi, has she received any new moves besides 6P+K? And has she been nerfed in any way that you noticed? Like has any of her CH properties from moves like 9K been drastically toned down?

-Does Kasumi's new 6P+K have any special properties or any good uses? I looked back at what it could do and its frame data from previous game but idk if it's changed much
- Cancelling Break Blow is easy. Just tap H (Hold, the block button) before the Break Blow hits.
- Resident Kasumi expert at the event Ebabil played her a lot. Everyone gets a couple of new moves, mostly new variations of strings they already have. Kasumi doesn't appear to be nerfed in any way, but some things have changed to line up with the new system. For example, 33K is now a go to launcher, as it gives the best launch height. In the facebook question thread Ebabil wrote the below. He indicates some things look like nerfs but playing against Kasumi did not appear to be so, just different ways in.
- Also answers your 6P+K question (note we don't know frame data yet)

She's lost a few things actually. Sit-down stuns like 6pp and 66k.k just knockdown now. Oh yeah and her cartwheel (9k and its variations) don't bounce yet again! -,- Idk what TN are doing haha. She had it in 4, got rid of it Vanilla 5, but then gave it back to her later on and now they're gone again .
Also, since the launch height mechanics are changed in 6, it takes getting used to. Stuff like her 236 p (214p in doa6) doesn't let her bnb ender with pkk7k 6 kk. Just some general little things like that are gonna change up her combos and how she's played in 6. Not too sure about Neutral play - I guess 3k, 1p and 6pk are all still good, if that's what you mean? The new 6p+k string is cool.
So yeah anyway, just sounds like a lot of nerfs lol but we'll see how things turn out at release.
 

crapoZK

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
England
Main Character
Zack
Gamertag
crapotk
PSN ID
crapo_tk
Steam
crapoTK
#5
  • The suggestion here is to introduce something simple and easy to understand. One move at least per character, probably a slow move, which guarantees force wake up after only a HARD KNOCKDOWN. This removes vortex, but creates the ability to go for a reset situation
Would be extremely dope to have everyone have 2 moves preferably. 3 MAXIMUM for FTs.
Long list ahead
Kasumi:
:1::K:
:2::h+k:

Hayabusa:
:1::P::2::K:
:2::h+k:

Hayate:
:1_::K::K:
:2::h+k:

Ayane:
:1_::P::K:
:3::3::P::2::K:
(BT) :2::K:

Leifang:
:2::h+k:
:1_::K::K:

Hitomi:
:2::h+k:
:3::h+k:

Bayman:
:2::h+k:
:2_::K::K:

Helena:
(BKO) :2::K:
:6::6::K::P:

Christie:
:2::h+k::P:

Eliot:
:8::K:

Tina:
:6::h+k:
:1::K:

Bass:
:8::P:
:6::h+k:

Zack:
:2::h+k:
:4::h+k:

Rig:
:7::P: (BS P included)
:2::h+k:

Lisa:
:1::K:

Kokoro:
:2::h+k::K:
:2::p+k:

Brad:
:2::h+k:
(BT) :2::p+k:

Honoka:
:1::K:
:2::h+k:

Marie Rose:
:2::h+k:

Mila:
:2::h+k:
:p+k:

Jann Lee:
:1::K:
:2::h+k:

Phase 4:
:1::K:
:2::h+k:

Nyo:
:2::h+k:
:2_::K::K:

Restrict movement at start of round (Circle only, not advance up close)
  • In a game where some characters have faster jabs than others, being able to walk into the opponents face gives some characters advantage at the start of the round. So lets just stop people moving forward past the starting positions.
  • Keep circular movement to position in the environment
Definitely can agree with this. Moving around into the foreground or background at GRF is more than enough. The dashing forward is TERRIBLE for online and for slower characters.

Command Throw Escapes
  • Once more with feeling - as above, it's time for some "brave" big boy fighting game mechanics. This would be relatively simple to implement. And here's how you to it while protecting the Triangle system:
    • If a Throw is attempted with a command ending in Forward+Throw (6T), then the Escape should be 6T.
  • Throw escapes are hype and won't affect low level play
  • It's incredibly in theme for DOA
How many times must we beg for this? This is almost a must now. Just make Hi-Counter Throws unbreakable and we're blessed. Neutral and throws ending in :4::t: can be broken with :t: as well. OHs cannot be broken as well, because they're considered holds so that adds layers to gameplay as well.
 

Raansu

Well-Known Member
Lutz, FL
Main Character
Hitomi
#6
  • Sit Down Stuns
    • These are less prevalent - Mila 3PP, Hayate 3PP, Leifang 3P4P, this do not SDS on counter hit anymore. Hard to say if a big problem as you can launch from any stun but it's a clear nerf. Inclined to believe ways to create SDS situations should be retained.
Given what we recently learned about sit downs now being fatal stuns, the changes to in strings not causing them on counter hit make complete sense. More than likely all sit down stuns will be set to individual attacks like Rigs punch (I forget the input) or Hitomi's 8k.

How many times must we beg for this? This is almost a must now. Just make Hi-Counter Throws unbreakable and we're blessed. Neutral and throws ending in :4::t: can be broken with :t: as well. OHs cannot be broken as well, because they're considered holds so that adds layers to gameplay as well.
In a game where risking a throw in neutral can lead to getting blown up with a counter hit stun, why is it a must to have? What about throw punishing unsafe strings? Should those be breakable as well? I used to be whatever about the concept as long as hi-counter throws remained unbreakable, but the entire concept of it just irks me now especially given DoA's nature of stun system compared to other fighters that have throw breaks. I don't think its a must have, I don't even think its necessary. Throwing is already pretty risky in neutral.
 

Berzerk!

Well-Known Member
Melbourne Australia
Main Character
Leifang
Gamertag
BerzerkDC
PSN ID
BERZERK_DC
#7
Given what we recently learned about sit downs now being fatal stuns, the changes to in strings not causing them on counter hit make complete sense. More than likely all sit down stuns will be set to individual attacks like Rigs punch (I forget the input) or Hitomi's 8k.
You might be right and this could be a wait and see situation. Principally, there still needs to be a few ways to create an unholdable (guaranteed) situation on the ground, so its not all about stun-juggle as the only path to damage. Its important for playstyle variety. Similar to the discussion around ground game - short combos which forgo damage but set up a kind of reset - and throw escapes, giving players more defensive variety in neutral game.

Speaking of which

In a game where risking a throw in neutral can lead to getting blown up with a counter hit stun, why is it a must to have? What about throw punishing unsafe strings? Should those be breakable as well? I used to be whatever about the concept as long as hi-counter throws remained unbreakable, but the entire concept of it just irks me now especially given DoA's nature of stun system compared to other fighters that have throw breaks. I don't think its a must have, I don't even think its necessary. Throwing is already pretty risky in neutral.
Throw escapes would not really be risking getting blown up as the situation would not be to the escapee's advantage. The attacker/throwing player would have the advantage or neutral at worst. I'd suggest most grapplers to have slight advantage when their throws are broken and strikers mostly be at neutral.

That sets up a situation where you have multiple gameplans - if they want to break, I do a different throw. Or, if they succeed in breaking, I have a set up to put them in trouble again. It's MUCH more interesting and makes a game both deeper and exciting for players, and more hype as a spectator game.

And again, to be clear - Throws punishing Holds would be unbreakable. That's the clear situation to reward throws completely.

To clarify further using comments from the general system thread:

Throw breaks would be directional and based on the same logic as other choices in the system.
In short - if you buffer a throw escape in the same direction as the throw, you get an escape. The exception would only be if you're getting punished for attempting a Hold, locking out an escape.

This introduces a mindset of "my opponent wants to do a forward throw, I'll prevent that". Then the throwing player needs to think "he knows I want to throw forward. I'll throw backward".
It's simple, it's elegant, and it provides a powerful added layer of depth which the game can benefit from in neutral play. Strong neutral requires this kind of access to defensive choices including when thrown.
  • Once you're able to break certain throws, you get to weaken the dominance of tick throw situations which favour strikers. Grappler players WANT throw breaks in the game as Grapplers have a better variety of throws. It's better to have the ability to escape certain obvious throw choices from strikers (such as launch throws or running throws) while having a variety of your own choices.
  • Note that if a throw is escaped the Throwing player should be at least neutral or slight advantage, so you don't get "punished" for attempting to throw
  • This system may then open up and benefit from implementing a few moves which punish unsafe attacks with specific strikes, like an elbow or jab move, so people have a throw punishment alternative. I think this is not a huge issue in the DOA system - even if a throw is broken you can initiate your next setup, however it would be a good addition. See how this works in Virtua Fighter here
  • This is really not so hard to balance because of the universal access each character has to throws and escapes. It is already a directional throw system with escapes at neutral, so let the gameplay build to the next logical step.
To reiterate, because it would be a directional throw break system, you're creating a very DOA styled mindgame situation with multiple routes in or out. Further depth and creativity in play is good.

In answer to the idea of not allowing throw breaks on the premise why should I be rewarded for making a mistake - I say blocking is not a mistake. There needs to be a method to answer tick throws. or attack string pressure mixed into throws for the defender. Escapes go with fuzzy or abare (attacking back) as the completion of the package.

Throw escape is not a complete reward, it is a temporary reprieve and you still have to work to get out of the situation.

Finally, stun system has already changed that less things stun, but even if it hadn't, you still would have situations which make sense to attack out of and thats one way to get out of throw pressure, but it doesn't give any options for when blocking.
 
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Raansu

Well-Known Member
Lutz, FL
Main Character
Hitomi
#8
Berzerk! said:
Throw escapes would not really be risking getting blown up as the situation would not be to the escapee's advantage.
I never said that....The risk currently in all DoA's when doing a neutral throw is the stun system. Strikes beat throws and you get put into a pretty heavy counter hit stun when you get hit by a strike when trying to throw. Throw escapes from that perspective to just makes the risk of a throw in neutral not worth it.

Berzerk! said:
That sets up a situation where you have multiple gameplans - if they want to break, I do a different throw. Or, if they succeed in breaking, I have a set up to put them in trouble again. It's MUCH more interesting and makes a game both deeper and exciting for players, and more hype as a spectator game.
This doesn't make it more interesting or deeper. It just adds another element of randomness to a franchise that is notoriously RPS.

Berzerk! said:
This introduces a mindset of "my opponent wants to do a forward throw, I'll prevent that". Then the throwing player needs to think "he knows I want to throw forward. I'll throw backward".

It's simple, it's elegant, and it provides a powerful added layer of depth which the game can benefit from in neutral play. Strong neutral requires this kind of access to defensive choices including when thrown.
All I see is more BS guessing games while still being at a risk of getting blown up to high heaven by a single jab.


Berzerk! said:
There needs to be a method to answer tick throws.
There is. It's called fuzzy guarding or jabbing.

We're not getting them in DoA6. Its just not happening. Shimbori already said straight up it would cost too much to animate each individual throw break. If we did get them in 6, or years down the road in 7 or even somehow in a refresh of 6, then whatever, I'll adjust to it. I just simply think general throw escapes are bad in all fighting games, and especially bad for DoA's general design. Watching throws never get pulled off in SC6 is annoying, not exciting. I watched a SC stream awhile back and it was like every time either player tried to throw it got broken. It was incredibly stupid.
 
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Berzerk!

Well-Known Member
Melbourne Australia
Main Character
Leifang
Gamertag
BerzerkDC
PSN ID
BERZERK_DC
#9
Well as stated in another thread SCVI is not the system to emulate for DOA throw breaks. The VF system would translate perfectly and it would see a SMART, decision and reads based sub game of breaks and you wouldn’t see them all the time or anywhere near it.
With at least 3 choices each time (left, right and neutral) it allows smart defenders to get away from OBVIOUS throw attempts.

Fuzzy guarding and jabbing are 2/3 layers for a complete system.

It’s not BS guessing. It’s deeper reads which lets you train against an opponents habits. That’s the core of DOA’s best gameplay.

It will still be guaranteed hold punishment and we propose to have advantage to grapplers when throws are escaped making it a setup.

There are a few things to supplement the system with ideally like a few more attack punishes but it would deepen the game.

They have neutral throw breaks already - making it more confusing to explain why some throws can be broken and not others. So it would just be finishing the job.

DOA can still be a very good game without this but it can’t be great.

Now putting throw breaks aside we’ve just seen the change to guaranteed wall damage and that’s a huge problem which needs to be fixed as a priority.
 
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Hazard

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Augusta, Georgia
Main Character
Akira Yuki
#11
Screw throw breaks, lets add DOA4 wallsplats.

But no seriously, I have no clue what decisions are being made at TN, but they aren't really good ones. While I don't prefer DOA5's wallsplats (I'm more in favor of DOA2 styled wallplats, but that's more of my personal preference than what I think is better) I can safely say that it is probably the most favored on average. If they wanted to make some slight changes to it, sure. But bringing back the wall mechanics that were left behind for a reason? This ain't it chief.

As for throw breaks, I believe they would help DOA a lot more than hurt it. It would definitely create more honest play than "Oh he 'might' throw, lemme mash a button." It would also be safer as well, as you don't have to risk getting CH if they decided to press a button instead of throw.

If I risk a throw and you failed to duck or jab out of it then you should not have the option to escape out of it.
Yes, allow me to react to 4-7 frames of startup.
 

crapoZK

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
England
Main Character
Zack
Gamertag
crapotk
PSN ID
crapo_tk
Steam
crapoTK
#14
Pre-round movement is a big no in my book, I don’t think it should work, and many would agree. Maybe only circular movement, but not forward or back.

DOA at GRF is just 2 people dashing inside each other trying to mash in their trusted 6P for the CH stun as soon as the game starts. And this is a momentum based game. So think of losing your momentum at the start of the game, because somebody mashed a move out faster than you. Think of the Brad players.

I’d prefer to be gone, or at least circular movement imho.
 

Berzerk!

Well-Known Member
Melbourne Australia
Main Character
Leifang
Gamertag
BerzerkDC
PSN ID
BERZERK_DC
#15
I just fundamentally disagree with the throw breaks. I didn't like them in VF and I'm completely against it in DoA. If I risk a throw and you failed to duck or jab out of it then you should not have the option to escape out of it.
Last thing I'll say in reply to this on throw breaks. Fundamental disagreement with throw breaks doesn't bear a good understanding of how it works for the system as you don't agree with them in VF either. All I can say is VF players love the throw break system. From years of high level tournament experience and discussion with top players, it's a very deep and smart system. Grappling characters benefit from it, it opens up the system and allows for better neutral gameplay.

The reward part of throws is all about punishing holds and as stated, the proposal for DOA is for this to remain unbreakable.
The fact that we have throw breaks at neutral only is inconsistent, I don't see how anyone can oppose them for directions and want to keep them for neutral. Of course, I don't advocate making neutral throws inescapable either, but they illustrate you can have them and it enhances the game. They could keep that existing escape animation for directions, not do any further work, and it would be fine.
 

Berzerk!

Well-Known Member
Melbourne Australia
Main Character
Leifang
Gamertag
BerzerkDC
PSN ID
BERZERK_DC
#16
Looks like an important update as of this tweet


Theory: Based on this & wall splat gifs showing characters landing, I think we have two timing windows.
1. The initial hit causes the regular low air launch.
2. If you let them drop they land on their feet in a holdable stun, for potential higher launch and more damage

If this bears out, its best of both worlds and nearly the most ideal wall system for DOA. All it needs is a wall slump after a juggle to prevent wakeup kick and its golden.
 

Raansu

Well-Known Member
Lutz, FL
Main Character
Hitomi
#17
Last thing I'll say in reply to this on throw breaks. Fundamental disagreement with throw breaks doesn't bear a good understanding of how it works for the system as you don't agree with them in VF either. All I can say is VF players love the throw break system. From years of high level tournament experience and discussion with top players, it's a very deep and smart system. Grappling characters benefit from it, it opens up the system and allows for better neutral gameplay.

The reward part of throws is all about punishing holds and as stated, the proposal for DOA is for this to remain unbreakable.
The fact that we have throw breaks at neutral only is inconsistent, I don't see how anyone can oppose them for directions and want to keep them for neutral. Of course, I don't advocate making neutral throws inescapable either, but they illustrate you can have them and it enhances the game. They could keep that existing escape animation for directions, not do any further work, and it would be fine.
I played VF in the arcades almost daily for 2 years in Japan. I understand the system perfectly fine. Doesn't mean i have to like it. I simply dont agree in giving defenders escapes. You have your chances to avoid the throw. You should not be given a second chance.
 

just_me

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
#18
The Wall stuns look too different…

It's most likely going to be dmg based. Knockback attacks below n dmg will cause the light (holdable) splat, attacks above will cause the heavy DOA5 splat.

Not unlike Wall Hit and Wall Stagger in VF… actually, 21 might be the current threshold. (x < 21 <= x … you get the gist I guess)

The question is if it's base or modified/scaled dmg. Modified makes hard splats on CH easy, but difficult to achieve from stun in general. Base is obviously fairly simple.

The other option is purely property based, so an attack can either cause no splat, a light splat, or heavy splat… which is basically the same complexity as base dmg based splats and hardly any more complex than the current system (where attacks either cause a splat, or they don't)

edit: That doesn't even mean that light splats can't allow for Natural Combos off the Wall/Wall 2-in-1s etc. There seems to be at least a bit of a gap between the splat and the opponent's ability to hold, so a String might very well Combo…
 
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Berzerk!

Well-Known Member
Melbourne Australia
Main Character
Leifang
Gamertag
BerzerkDC
PSN ID
BERZERK_DC
#19
The Wall stuns look too different…

It's most likely going to be dmg based. Knockback attacks below n dmg will cause the light (holdable) splat, attacks above will cause the heavy DOA5 splat.

Not unlike Wall Hit and Wall Stagger in VF… actually, 21 might be the current threshold. (x < 21 <= x … you get the gist I guess)

The question is if it's base or modified/scaled dmg. Modified makes hard splats on CH easy, but difficult to achieve from stun in general. Base is obviously fairly simple.

The other option is purely property based, so an attack can either cause no splat, a light splat, or heavy splat… which is basically the same complexity as base dmg based splats and hardly any more complex than the current system (where attacks either cause a splat, or they don't)

edit: That doesn't even mean that light splats can't allow for Natural Combos off the Wall/Wall 2-in-1s etc. There seems to be at least a bit of a gap between the splat and the opponent's ability to hold, so a String might very well Combo…
I think this is highly unlikely. Wall splats in DOA are caused by specific moves with the wall splat/knockback property.
I don't see anything in the videos shown so far which are inconsistent with that, so there's no reason to think its a metric they haven't used before

Making it move based is much more consistent. This is also the case in VF - it may coincide with damage values, but it's still a matter of learning the specific moves for your character which wall splat. Typically in VF you have to hit someone into a light wall stun, then follow up to get the full splat.
 

Berzerk!

Well-Known Member
Melbourne Australia
Main Character
Leifang
Gamertag
BerzerkDC
PSN ID
BERZERK_DC
#20
With the clearer information shared now, which explains there are two wall splats, depending on the move chosen by the attacker, this is an improved wall game on DOA5.
A good design choice in the end, sadly the information poorly delivered and caused a lot of concern. Hopefully they will look at the issues people raised, and apply the logic behind this mechanic to the ground game.

One thing I noticed here is the damage either way is quite low. I hope the standard life bar is lowered so short combos and pokes are more of a threat.
 
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