Where to next for DOA6? Diving into the mechanics found in the DOAFES Build at CouchWarriors Crossup (Australia) with Video

[ryu_highabusa]

This is also the case in VF - it may coincide with damage values, but it's still a matter of learning the specific moves for your character which wall splat.

Way to mansplain their own argument to them.

If I wanted to play VF I'd go play VF.

wat??

 

[Raansu]

Way to mansplain their own argument to them.

If I wanted to play VF I'd go play VF.

 

[Berzerk!]

It won't be VF, its still intrinsically DOA. But you might as well say "I don't want a game that uses three buttons which are guard, punch and kick, I don't want low medium and high attack heights, I don't want string and directional based move systems, I don't want arenas with walls, I don't want sidestep, I don't want mids to hit crouching characters and I don't want down attacks or wakeup kicks because VF has those too"

Seriously, the games are different, sure, but they have fundamental similarities and just as Sidestepping was a CORE 3D GAME FEATURE like Button to Block, this is another of those things which fundamentally works for this style of 3D fighter.

In fact, it works for EVERY fighter. Is DOA the only game which doesn't have this?

There's being unique in style, then there's missing something which makes a game feature complete.

 

[Raansu]

It won't be VF, its still intrinsically DOA. But you might as well say "I don't want a game that uses three buttons which are guard, punch and kick, I don't want low medium and high attack heights, I don't want string and directional based move systems, I don't want arenas with walls, I don't want sidestep, I don't want mids to hit crouching characters and I don't want down attacks or wakeup kicks because VF has those too"

Seriously, the games are different, sure, but they have fundamental similarities and just as Sidestepping was a CORE 3D GAME FEATURE like Button to Block, this is another of those things which fundamentally works for this style of 3D fighter.

In fact, it works for EVERY fighter. Is DOA the only game which doesn't have this?

There's being unique in style, then there's missing something which makes a game feature complete.

Throw breaks doesn't make a game feature complete. Its not a good feature.

 

[Hazard]

Throw breaks doesn't make a game feature complete. Its not a good feature.

I played VF in the arcades almost daily for 2 years in Japan..

All I hear is someone didn't break throws for 2 years.

As for the topic at hand, I'm not too keen on the new wall game. Partly because it brings back the shitty splats from DOA4, and the fact that it more or less seems hot-glued onto the game.
While I'd rather have a 2/5 hybrid than a 4/5, I'd also much rather just have one consistent system.

 

[DestructionBomb]

Just think, throw breaks at neutral creating a ultra hype suspension at events is one of the greatest things ever. Just imagine breaking throws left and right at tiny line HP in NH situations moving around and all it takes is one hit but they are expecting strike at times so they go for throw options while i'm jumping on my seat yelling at the person next to me etc.

It even creates a much more cleaner game because it pressure checks an opponent if they are on their toes playing defensively and rewards a defensive player on smart decisions for comeback rather than getting screwed over because you got hit with a quick mid or got caught by an i7 throw which is unreactable compared to expecting it or predicting it's coming. I'm in full support for a throw break system. I'm mostly neutral if there isn't a throw break system, but if there was a chance it will ever be included, i'm in for the support.

 

[Raansu]

All I hear is someone didn't break throws for 2 years.

As for the topic at hand, I'm not too keen on the new wall game. Partly because it brings back the shitty splats from DOA4, and the fact that it more or less seems hot-glued onto the game.
While I'd rather have a 2/5 hybrid than a 4/5, I'd also much rather just have one consistent system.

I used throw breaks all the time. The mechanic was there, I used it. Same if we ever got them in DoA. Doesn't mean I have to like the mechanic not-r does it make a good mechanic just because its done in other games. Make the read before you get thrown by fuzzy guarding or jabbing. Once you're grabbed you should not have the option to get out of it.

Just think, throw breaks at neutral creating a ultra hype suspension at events is one of the greatest things ever. Just imagine breaking throws left and right at tiny line HP in NH situations moving around and all it takes is one hit but they are expecting strike at times so they go for throw options while i'm jumping on my seat yelling at the person next to me etc.

Nothing about this sounds remotely good. He got caught in a throw, that should be the end of it.

It even creates a much more cleaner game because it pressure checks an opponent if they are on their toes playing defensively and rewards a defensive player on smart decisions for comeback rather than getting screwed over because you got hit with a quick mid or got caught by an i7 throw which is unreactable compared to expecting it or predicting it's coming. I'm in full support for a throw break system. I'm mostly neutral if there isn't a throw break system, but if there was a chance it will ever be included, i'm in for the support.

Doesn't make it cleaner. Makes it more random, especially in doa where everything is negative on block and throw punishment is a core part of the game and strike punishment doesn't exist and they are definitely not going to drastically change the games style to add in strike punishment. Ya'll are basically asking doa to no longer be doa.

 

[Jared]

There can be a throw break system while still allowing guaranteed throws in situations such as block and hold punishment. In Street Fighter, since 3, you can perform an untechable throw as a punishment (not the best option but it's still there), and in Tekken if you throw someone out of an armor move it becomes unbreakable. I'm not advocating DOA take these mechanics, but simply providing these examples to show what routes other developers took to tackle similar problems.

Personally I'd like to see some kind of throw break system in the neutral and during sidesteps, but TN will never implement anything like that so I wouldn't waste too much time asking for it.

As for the wall, my early impressions are I don't really like the implementation they are going for in 6. For a game they are trying to make more accessible by removing certain options, primarily slow/stagger escape, adding a convoluted system like different wall splats for different attacks doesn't make much sense, nor does it really follow the design philosophy that lead to prior decisions. Now you will have to know what move does what wall splat for each character, and that adds a lot of pseudo-depth to the game, and unfortunately this isn't the kind of depth that makes the game more interesting.

Also, from the video demonstrations on Twitter (our only reference source as of now), the damage difference between the guaranteed DOA5 style wall combo, and the more risky DOA4 style wall combo, were not significant enough to ever go for the non-guaranteed version. Of course with the DOA4 wall style I'm sure there will be room to play with the stun system if you really need the damage, but I'm not sure if that would be worth it most of the time.

Something else I'd like to see, although it is surely too late, is a more fleshed out Oki system. After a wall combo in DOA2 and 3, the character on the receiving end of the combo would end up slumped against the wall, and a wake up kick was not possible. However, in DOA3 (NTSC-J and PAL only), if a character teched off the wall in either the up or down direction, and the offensive player continued to attack, the defender would end up behind the attacker because the attacker would be off-axis. However, if the attacker read the direction, he could free step with them and still keep their opponent's back to the wall. I always thought this was a very subtle yet interesting mind game, and allowed other defensive options rather than the hold or wake up kick, while at the same time created a counter to this option that didn't directly lead to damage, but allowed a good read to leave you in an advantageous position.

 

[Raansu]

There can be a throw break system while still allowing guaranteed throws in situations such as block and hold punishment. In Street Fighter, since 3, you can perform an untechable throw as a punishment (not the best option but it's still there), and in Tekken if you throw someone out of an armor move it becomes unbreakable. I'm not advocating DOA take these mechanics, but simply providing these examples to show what routes other developers took to tackle similar problems.

They are wanting all throws except hi-counter to be breakable, which would mean you can say goodbye to throw punishment. Do you want DoA4's cat and mouse whiff punishment game to the extreme? Cuz that's how you get it.

 

[Jared]

They are wanting all throws except hi-counter to be breakable, which would mean you can say goodbye to throw punishment. Do you want DoA4's cat and mouse whiff punishment game to the extreme? Cuz that's how you get it.

Yeah that wouldn’t work at all in DOA’s system since you don’t really get much on NH. Even changing recovery frames to CH would be unappealing because then punishment is just a stun mix up. I think the throw system in DOA is the least of its worries honestly. A break system would be nice but not necessary. I think things like the wall tech coming back would be more valuable to the depth and variety in matches.

 

[Berzerk!]

They are wanting all throws except hi-counter to be breakable, which would mean you can say goodbye to throw punishment. Do you want DoA4's cat and mouse whiff punishment game to the extreme? Cuz that's how you get it.

Yes, sort of. Has always been positioned as Unbreakable During Holds. Kind of misrepresenting the original post here. Will talk about throws at neutral below.

Retaining Throws as Hold punishment is a key part of the push to get Directional Throw Breaks implemented in DOA. It would even improve neutral throws, which currently are breakable during holds. A more complete and consistent system.

The triangle system would be retained (core to DOA) and it would not become like cat and mouse whiff punishment - its about deeper reads and multilayer strategy both at neutral, and when pressing advantage.

However, its funny you mention your view on whiff punishment, because maybe we can agree here.
Whiff punishment especially around wakeup kicks even in DOA5 is quite like this. This is where a LITTLE strike punishment would really improve the game and it would still be DOA. The triangle system, holds, juggles are more intrinsic to what makes it DOA. Being able to properly punish while standing or crouching with a strike wouldn't change that, but improve it.

We're talking about things like a PK or 6P max depending on the recovery of a blocked string. Having other paths to punishment wouldn't make it "not DOA", and it allows pathways for strikers and grapplers to better differentiate.

There can be a throw break system while still allowing guaranteed throws in situations such as block and hold punishment. In Street Fighter, since 3, you can perform an untechable throw as a punishment (not the best option but it's still there), and in Tekken if you throw someone out of an armor move it becomes unbreakable. I'm not advocating DOA take these mechanics, but simply providing these examples to show what routes other developers took to tackle similar problems.

Personally I'd like to see some kind of throw break system in the neutral and during sidesteps, but TN will never implement anything like that so I wouldn't waste too much time asking for it.

Well put, as stated above, noone is asking for throw punishment not to work. Keep the unbreakable throws on hold punishes.
I'll acknowledge there's a possible argument for unbreakable throws during the other player's deep disadvantage, but this would be inelegant and more complicated to explain. It's also not necessary given the suggested implementation states the throwing character would retain some advantage (especially if grappler).

As for whether to "waste" time asking. It's an important feature, and if they don't see momentum with fans asking for a feature, they won't try it. Have to chip away at these things.

All that said, I would agree there are currently more important things to implement (by a hair), and I'd rather be talking about those from here.

So, moving on to walls and ground game.

 

[Berzerk!]

Ok let's talk wall and especially Ground Game / Oki

As for the wall, my early impressions are I don't really like the implementation they are going for in 6. For a game they are trying to make more accessible by removing certain options, primarily slow/stagger escape, adding a convoluted system like different wall splats for different attacks doesn't make much sense, nor does it really follow the design philosophy that lead to prior decisions. Now you will have to know what move does what wall splat for each character, and that adds a lot of pseudo-depth to the game, and unfortunately this isn't the kind of depth that makes the game more interesting.

This is a good point, however I thing having two different wall splats doesn't wholly go against the philosophy of making decisions clear. Stagger escape was very ambiguous. Whereas having two wall hits, is not too much of a leap to learn and its nice to have SOME nuance.

On the surface, its just "get hit into the wall and you're in trouble". How much trouble and how to deal with pressure is ALWAYS going to be a deeper conversation with a new player, so I don't mind this. Previously it was "avoid the wall", now it's that AND, "watch the reset attempt".

Also, from the video demonstrations on Twitter (our only reference source as of now), the damage difference between the guaranteed DOA5 style wall combo, and the more risky DOA4 style wall combo, were not significant enough to ever go for the non-guaranteed version. Of course with the DOA4 wall style I'm sure there will be room to play with the stun system if you really need the damage, but I'm not sure if that would be worth it most of the time.

Totally agree here. But then I think the damage is too low on strikes (life setting too high). See the first post on the thread on this.

Something else I'd like to see, although it is surely too late, is a more fleshed out Oki system. After a wall combo in DOA2 and 3, the character on the receiving end of the combo would end up slumped against the wall, and a wake up kick was not possible. However, in DOA3 (NTSC-J and PAL only), if a character teched off the wall in either the up or down direction, and the offensive player continued to attack, the defender would end up behind the attacker because the attacker would be off-axis. However, if the attacker read the direction, he could free step with them and still keep their opponent's back to the wall. I always thought this was a very subtle yet interesting mind game, and allowed other defensive options rather than the hold or wake up kick, while at the same time created a counter to this option that didn't directly lead to damage, but allowed a good read to leave you in an advantageous position.

Totally agree there needs to be a real oki game. I don't think its too late either. This is supposedly one of the final things they're deciding on implementation (in the ground game anyway). So..

1. Agree there needs to be a No Wake Up Kick Wall Slump.
- As they've now implemented two types of moves to cause WALL HIT, how about if you juggle someone into the wall and land with the harder wall hit, they slump and can't Wake Up kick?
- Personally, I'd rather just keep it simple and any juggled Wall Hit means No Wake Up Kick!

2. Hard Knockdowns need to lead to the wake up game. This is the same idea as having an option in Wall hits to risk more for a reset.
- If you juggle the opponent there is no reason not to do a full damage combo
- Lets add an option - and the moves already exist - to do a smaller damage combo after a juggle, which leaves the opponent in a hard knockdown (no techroll). This would lead to the below, as a way to reset.

3. Ground game / Forced Wake up (no wake up kick)
- From a hard knockdown, provide each character with 1-2 moves which progress a Forced Wakeup.
- One could be a short/quick move that causes a roll back and wake up
- One would be a slower move that causes Wakeup standing. This would be a string ender or single move with no followup, usually a standing attack with a downward hitbox, like an axe kick.
- the opponent forced up cannot wakeup kick but can block. In fact, there should be meaty attack follow ups that force them to block or get hit.

Adding an alternative strategy to lead to more potential damage by forcing a hard knockdown, another path to damage, opens up strategy. 2 leads to 3 above.
This could be great for players aiming to build momentum for a comeback.

 

[DestructionBomb]

B-but, I liked the throw break topic. It was so cool and it made sense.

But yeah, it's cool.

 

[Jared]

1. Agree there needs to be a No Wake Up Kick Wall Slump.
- As they've now implemented two types of moves to cause WALL HIT, how about if you juggle someone into the wall and land with the harder wall hit, they slump and can't Wake Up kick?
- Personally, I'd rather just keep it simple and any juggled Wall Hit means No Wake Up Kick!

I'm more of a fan of any attack that ends in a wall hit should slump. It'll make players have to decide between juggle enders that knock back vs ones that will leave you closer for pressure. And the whole system in DOA3.1/2 was perfect IMO. You could get better positioning as the defender when you got off the wall and quickly turn the tide on your opponent if they get too aggressive or if they read the wrong tech direction.

2. Hard Knockdowns need to lead to the wake up game. This is the same idea as having an option in Wall hits to risk more for a reset.
- If you juggle the opponent there is no reason not to do a full damage combo
- Lets add an option - and the moves already exist - to do a smaller damage combo after a juggle, which leaves the opponent in a hard knockdown (no techroll). This would lead to the below, as a way to reset.

I've always wanted this back since DOA3. I think this would be most valuable to ground throw characters like Mila, Bass, Tina, etc. Maybe a tactical decision can be made between "let me get this big damage with a full combo into air grab," and "I'm gonna sacrifice a little damage, get the hard knock down, and get better positioning and/or not have to deal with a wake up kick."

I am fine with non-grappling characters not having things like this. It can be a way to differentiate the grappler play style even more rather than a watered down striker play style as it had the potential to be in DOAs past.

3. Ground game / Forced Wake up (no wake up kick)
- From a hard knockdown, provide each character with 1-2 moves which progress a Forced Wakeup.
- One could be a short/quick move that causes a roll back and wake up
- One would be a slower move that causes Wakeup standing. This would be a string ender or single move with no followup, usually a standing attack with a downward hitbox, like an axe kick.
- the opponent forced up cannot wakeup kick but can block. In fact, there should be meaty attack follow ups that force them to block or get hit.

Adding an alternative strategy to lead to more potential damage by forcing a hard knockdown, another path to damage, opens up strategy. 2 leads to 3 above.
This could be great for players aiming to build momentum for a comeback.

Like I said before, I actually wouldn't mind every character not having a forced wake up attack, or at least guaranteed situations to get them in. This will add unique strategies to different characters, and can help cover up for characters weaknesses, such as in the case of a character like Bass, who tends to have slower attacks and therefore a slightly more difficult neutral game.

Therefore the inverse of this would be a more mobile character like Ayane, whose game plan is to generally space her opponent out, play keep away, and capitalize on whiffs. It wouldn't make too much sense, balance wise, if this character had good rushdown tools provided from a hard knock down/force tech situation, as well as the tools to keep you away effectively. So it is a situation like this where I would say that it'd be ok if this were not a universal tool across the entire cast.

All of these things solve an even bigger issue in the game that has been a through-line through every single DOA game: The wake up kick. If these tools were implemented in the game, I would be ok with the wake up kick being the same invincible, get-the-hell-away-from-me-or-this-thing-will-go-through-your-attack, pressure relieving tool that it has always been because there are ways and advanced tactics, although not oblique or non-intuitive in nature, that can circumvent its strengths. If every knockdown situation in the game, regardless of juggle ender or screen positioning, is basically the same, the game may get stale in the long run.

 

[Berzerk!]

All of these things solve an even bigger issue in the game that has been a through-line through every single DOA game: The wake up kick. If these tools were implemented in the game, I would be ok with the wake up kick being the same invincible, get-the-hell-away-from-me-or-this-thing-will-go-through-your-attack, pressure relieving tool that it has always been because there are ways and advanced tactics, although not oblique or non-intuitive in nature, that can circumvent its strengths. If every knockdown situation in the game, regardless of juggle ender or screen positioning, is basically the same, the game may get stale in the long run.

I really like the thoughts on character variety there.
The concept shared in this thread is to have a really clear HARD KNOCKDOWN status, and a really clear FORCE STAND attack for each character.
But its persuasive to suggest some characters, especially very mobile characters, could do something a bit differently for variety. Perhaps they don't have forced wakeup, but they force roll back and up, or just able to keep hitting on ground and after first two hits the opponent just needs to tech up themselves.

But yes, Wakeup kick is still a problem. This all helps a lot with it. There needs to be more ways to play around it, so ground game is important.

All that said, per original post, I would still advocate reducing the range and increasing the recovery a little so it can be read and punished more effectively.

 

[tiptoes777]

I'm liking everything I am seeing. I think the new system, especially the launcher system will make for people developing different styles with the characters more so then in previous versions of DOA. The ground game is interesting and Bezerk is right we haven't seen much in the way of what's going on there. I think maybe instead of finishing a ground bounce or getting the extra setup instead they crumble to the floor and you have a chance to get a force wake up might be cool. I remember that happening to me all the time fighting against Helena and leifang. Helena was a jumping back heel kick and leifangs little slide splits kick. Looking forward to Online demo.

 

[NightAntilli]

I was never a fan of forced wake-ups, aside from the character specific ones, like Bass picking the character back up. Other than that, to me, the player should decide when to get up. If he doesn't, he'll simply get slammed to death on the ground.

 

[Dr PaC]

I was never a fan of forced wake-ups, aside from the character specific ones, like Bass picking the character back up. Other than that, to me, the player should decide when to get up. If he doesn't, he'll simply get slammed to death on the ground.

Itll take some getting used to from me cuz force teching is so ingrained but I dont see a problem with it not being a thing anymore. But there does need to be some sort of ground game to make up for the lack of force techs

 

[Berzerk!]

I was never a fan of forced wake-ups, aside from the character specific ones, like Bass picking the character back up. Other than that, to me, the player should decide when to get up. If he doesn't, he'll simply get slammed to death on the ground.

Its the same principle. You have to have a way to pressure opponents on the ground or the person that lost a situation and got knocked down has all the power. Especially as Wake up kicks are so strong.

In the first post, the proposed ground game asks for a NO VORTEX solution. So knowing it would ideally be a system in which only a few set moves can force up, and you would have the chance to block subsequently, does that help this concern?

 

[Jared]

I would love to see a ground game like DOA2/3, but with slightly weaker wake up kicks. Either make the mid one unsafe on block, and the low negative frames on NH, or tone down their invincibility a lot. The former would allow an attacker to stand more confidently next to a downed opponent because the reward for a successful wake up kick on NH is greatly diminished, while the latter could create set ups where an offensive player can use specifically timed attacks to beat wake up kicks, adding a subtle and more dynamic mind game to the wake up game beyond "you better hold this shit or get the hell out of the way."

Also, allow for hard knock downs from moves that slam to the ground, even off of a juggle, where a ground attack/throw can be guaranteed in these situations. We don't really need to have force techs, but with the way wake up kicks are so strong at this point, I feel like something needs to be added to the oki game to make it more interesting.

They are reverting so many elements in this game to mimic the game play of 2/3, such as the lower stun threshold and consistent launch heights, that I would like to see them consider something like this as well. It will get rid of a potentially overly oppressive force tech system and replace it with a ground game more akin to the series' design philosophy, but at the same time not one-dimensional.

Edit: Edited some parts for clarity. Shoulda proof read it before hitting submit!