Why do you guys hate DOA4¿

DR2K

Well-Known Member
I'm sorry but I wont be doing that. I have 7 years of DOA4 knowledge to know it couldn't be true. I'd really like to know what exactly people said/implied that they disliked about DOA4 though, other than it didn't have as many costumes as DOA2U!

Since this seems like topic derailment, lets switch back over to the topic of "Apprehensions about DOA5".
I share some of that apprehension, that's all I aimed to say - though not for many of the reason's MeanMrMustard posted.

What knoweldge? You knew a few move sets, and learned some force teching if you were good enough. The game was completely random after you got past that thershold. As long as DOA5 doesn't take out guaranteed options for charactercters and keeps them unique while maintaining all the system changes, then it'll be the game DOA fans deserve.
 

Raansu

Well-Known Member
There have been plenty of DOA4 tournaments. Are you senile or something? Just because it wasn't at Evo or SBO doesn't mean anything, considering no DOA has ever been at an SBO or an EVO. Actually, DOA4 was at EVO2006, but it really really doesn't matter cause Evo has also catered to Super Smash Brothers and Tatsunoko vs Capcom. DOA plays differently from other fighters, and people need to realize that instead of constantly pushing the idea that it should just be Virtua Fighter with different characters and 5 Kagemaru's.

But look what we have now, the very concept of free-step-dodging, which this DOA fansite so aptly took it's name after, is missing in DOA5, and replaced with command-sidestepping.

Either you are just flat out bad at playing DOA, or you'd rather just play some other game.

And your comment about Itagaki is unfounded in totality.

Then again, maybe what you were getting at is, If I actually enjoyed the DOA series, I shouldn't be here?

I can deal with that.

Yeah, there have been DoA4 tournaments...99% of them never had more then 10 people show up though. The only "high number" events were the ones with money on the line. No one actually cared about DoA4. It was fundamentally flawed in almost every aspect. It was not a competitive fighter and not a single high level player will agree with you on this subject with the exception of maybe master, but even he has admitted on occasions that it isn't his favorite in the series and that it's flawed.

Also, FSD is still in the game...And the reason DrDogg is saying you are in the wrong place is because most people on this site are more of the competitive side of the DoA community, and the majority of us agree that DoA4 was terrible. You will be hard pressed to find anyone that will agree with anything you have said.

I have never even heard of a single soul disliking DOA for any mechanical or technical matter until DOA5 was announced, so you might want to check what hype train you're riding and get off at the next possible stop.

Then clearly you have not been part of the community for the past 6 years. Like I said before...You are going to have a hard time finding anyone who thinks DoA4 is competitive, including high level players.

DOA in Dallas.
Get some money, travel to texas, stop feeling like no one wants to play your game because you think it's shitty, cause it isn't.

Edit: It's thanks to DOA in Dallas that many DOA american players got sent to Japan to try out Dead or Alive: Dimensions and discuss DOA with Yosuke Hayashi.

D.i.D had NOTHING to do with master and his little group getting special treatment. TN didn't know anything about the community, they said themselves they thought it was dead. They found the "DoA Champions" through the garbage CGS that no one in the community recognizes as a legit event.

Also, I was at D.i.D last year and I certainly don't recall hearing your name. So where were you during this time? Don't tell others to get some money and travel if you yourself hasn't shown your face.
 

DR2K

Well-Known Member
I implied more than just knowledge of the games mechanics, sorry.
7 years of knowledge about DOA4, tournaments for DOA4, people who played DOA4, and so on.

That being said, it really isn't all that random. I can only think of a few times where the game got random, and they're strictly tied to online-lag where things like properly countering didn't work too well. if DOA5 has at least a better netcode even minutely, that'd be better than doa4 already.

yeah%2Bokay.gif
 

Raansu

Well-Known Member
I implied more than just knowledge of the games mechanics, sorry.
7 years of knowledge about DOA4, tournaments for DOA4, people who played DOA4, and so on.

That being said, it really isn't all that random. I can only think of a few times where the game got random, and they're strictly tied to online-lag where things like properly countering didn't work too well. if DOA5 has at least a better netcode even minutely, that'd be better than doa4 already.

Ugh, you know what dude, believe what you want, I really don't care. This conversation has been beaten to death and it has been explained over and over and over again on why DoA4 is not a competitively viable game. If you want to believe its a solid fighter then good on you, live in that ignorance for all I care.
 

Stikku

Active Member
Raansu, do you mean to imply you wish DOA was more popular? That's all i'm reading there. It's nice to have a popular game, yes - so when you do have tournaments, you know you're better than not 10, but a hundred or a thousand people, right?

But really, money matches are where it's at. Doesn't matter if its two people or two thousand, if money can be won, it's probably for the best that DOA was even considered as a gamble, cause when it really comes down to it - no one makes it in life by simply being the best at a video game.

The tournaments i've known for DOA4 have surpassed any tournaments i've known for DOA 2 or 3. I love DOA3 for it's aesthetics, music, sound design, graphics, etc. but It's hard to find a community for a game like that, especially when it never had an arcade debut or online play to connect a community.

I'd like to know why the people who don't like DOA4 believe DOA5 to be a savior in this sense though. I loved DOA4 and am almost entirely put off by DOA5 sans a few stages, a few character models, and a few music tracks. I'm also really put off by the lack of Leon, Ein, and Tengu. It's really hard to contend over information regarding DOA5 when either enough hasn't been shared, there have been implications of hidden surprises, as well as implications of inability because of what Team Ninja has become in the wake of Tomonobu Itagaki's departure.

I'm infuriated with Tecmo and Team Ninja for this stunt they're pulling with showing off so many unfinished and progressively changing builds of this game, all the while hosting really cheesy impossible-to-train-for "tournaments" with each build that has changes that even the people who were playing previous build's can't accommodate for.

I get that they're getting the name out there and trying hard to generate hype around DOA5 so it will be more popular, but golly if it isn't just a kick in the nuts.
 

AegisOrnus

Active Member
I'd like to know why the people who don't like DOA4 believe DOA5 to be a savior in this sense though. I loved DOA4 and am almost entirely put off by DOA5 sans a few stages, a few character models, and a few music tracks. I'm also really put off by the lack of Leon, Ein, and Tengu. It's really hard to contend over information regarding DOA5 when either enough hasn't been shared, there have been implications of hidden surprises, as well as implications of inability because of what Team Ninja has become in the wake of Tomonobu Itagaki's departure.

I'm infuriated with Tecmo and Team Ninja for this stunt they're pulling with showing off so many unfinished and progressively changing builds of this game, all the while hosting really cheesy impossible-to-train-for "tournaments" with each build that has changes that even the people who were playing previous build's can't accommodate for.

I get that they're getting the name out there and trying hard to generate hype around DOA5 so it will be more popular, but golly if it isn't just a kick in the nuts.
I think it's far from a "kick in the nuts." I've personally enjoyed all the information released about the game, it's never struck me as being any different than what happened with SF4 or MVC3. And yes, while they are "tournaments" in some sense, I don't think they've ever been something to take seriously despite all the pro-league flair they've been given. What it did accomplish was to get the word out that DOA5 is a serious fighter. It feels better, plays tighter, and it's easy to get a sense that there has been a lot of thought put into the game. And since anyone gets to play it, that means the DOA lifers, casuals, and pros get to try out the game and give feedback directly to the dev team. Shimbori's come off as nothing but dedicated and I truly believe that from what I've played and the improvements I've seen, we're finally getting a DOA above the rest.

I hate DOA4. I come from DOA2U as a SS Ein and DOA4 took that system and its mechanics and turned it almost completely on its head. The only game you're playing in DOA4 is one where the only offensive option is to stagger your combos and play the most shallow mind games ever experienced. There's hardly any time to size up your opponent's ability or build patterns and break them because the game intrinsically punishes you for doing so. If Itagaki was making DOA5, I probably wouldn't play it. I do not want to play virtual rapid rock-paper-scissors in the sense that you're only going to play in an almost completely random fashion, making correct guesses with perfectly random results. Adding to that, DOAX2 and NG2 were complete garbage compared to their original outing. For the time, NG, DOA2U, and DOAX accomplished what they set out to do in a way that told the world Team Ninja made games that provided excellent experiences that were engaging and top grade. When next-gen hit, everything went downhill and bizzaro world TN made its debut.

My romanticism of games past aside, playing DOA5 was inspiring. It played so much closer to DOA2 and 3 and I immediately felt back at home with the game. Adding to that, I was excited to put time in with the game to learn its mechanics, mechanics I've used in other fighters with skills I've spent time building that can now help me in my desire to succeed playing DOA5. The visuals are amazing, the gameplay is more than sound, at the very least it deserves a chance to be taken as seriously as any other fighter. Really, the effort being put into DOA5 is nothing to be made light of or spurned. They're working rather closely to the community, taking all of our ideas into consideration no matter the gaming background, and it shows in a positive way through those balance test vids and further changes made to the game based on further feedback from those vids and community.

I believe that TN has been doing a great job with this game through it's pre-release phase and I appreciate the relationship they've built with the community over the past year or so. I find it commendable to be so transparent with the fans and I'm going to throw as much money as I can at them to show my support.
 

Brute

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
I hate DOA4. I come from DOA2U as a SS Ein [...] If Itagaki was making DOA5, I probably wouldn't play it.
He made DOA2U as well, you know.

Adding to that, DOAX2 and NG2 were complete garbage compared to their original outing.
DOA1X was garbage as well. =P
I agree that NG: Black was better than NG2, but, a couple considerations:
1) Itagaki mentioned that he was forced to rush a lot of things to to time constraints set by the publisher. He didn't have time to fine-tune a complete product, unlike NG:Black which had an incredibly long development cycle, and had frequent post-release content and tweaks added.
2) While a NG game should never be released unless it has genuine quality (yes, I'm looking at you, NG3), keep in mind that NG1/Black set a very high standard. I wouldn't be surprised if I never play a better action game until the day I die. So expecting NG2 to live up to or surpass its predecessor in every way is unrealistic.

I believe that TN has been doing a great job with this game through it's pre-release phase and I appreciate the relationship they've built with the community over the past year or so. I find it commendable to be so transparent with the fans and I'm going to throw as much money as I can at them to show my support.
Agreed.

edit:
I myself greatly enjoy DOA4, but I do recognize some of the complaints made against it. Earlier someone said that SCIV is a more balanced and technical fighter, which I find hilarious.
 

AegisOrnus

Active Member
He made DOA2U as well, you know.
I do know that. I find it surprising he'd go on such a streak with DOA3, DOA2U, NG, DOAX, and then NGBlack and then just as consistently fail afterwards.

...expecting NG2 to live up to or surpass its predecessor in every way is unrealistic.
I think it's reasonable to think that the next game in a series would at least live up to the success of the first game, that's why they'd be making it in the first place. To surpass it in every way, then no, but it's always a nice surprise to find that it does. I found that Ninja Gaiden Sigma 2 did both very well. It's a contender with Devil May Cry 3 for myself. I haven't played NG3 though so it's surprising that they could fix so much about NG2 and then completely lose it with 3. They did ruin their first Sigma attempt towards the end of the game though but it seemed they figured out what to do/not to do with the second Sigma. It's too bad that didn't transfer over to their original title (NG3).
 

Brute

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
I found that Ninja Gaiden Sigma 2 did both very well. It's a contender with Devil May Cry 3 for myself.
Sigma 2 is very good, but several very horrible decisions resulted in a game that I would not consider to be on an equal playing field with DMC3.

I haven't played NG3 though so it's surprising that they could fix so much about NG2 and then completely lose it with 3. They did ruin their first Sigma attempt towards the end of the game though but it seemed they figured out what to do/not to do with the second Sigma. It's too bad that didn't transfer over to their original title (NG3).
Out of curiosity, besides new characters/weapons, and a level select, what makes Sigma 2 so much better than the Xbox NG2, in your opinion? May be better discussed here (<-hard to tell, but that's a link) to avoid a derail, though.

PS: Sigma 1 retains enough of Black to be an amazing game, but besides the graphics update it is universally inferior to Black, imo. Almost all changes were for the worse (some additional save statue locations were a nice addition, I s'pose).
 

TRI Mike

Well-Known Member
Wow, looking back at when I first created this thread I get surprised at how my opinions on DOA4 have changed. I have a LOT to be thankful to this site. Still, I don't HATE the game, I don't even dislike it because it was my main fighter for seven years and I just didn't have enough knowledge as to recognize the issues. I'll miss it a lot.
 

Forlorn Penguin

Well-Known Member
Premium Donor
Wow, looking back at when I first created this thread I get surprised at how my opinions on DOA4 have changed. I have a LOT to be thankful to this site. Still, I don't HATE the game, I don't even dislike it because it was my main fighter for seven years and I just didn't have enough knowledge as to recognize the issues. I'll miss it a lot.

Yeah, I too had a different perspective of DOA4 until earlier this year. I used to think that the game was balanced, and had good mechanics, but after branching out to other fighting games earlier in the year, and being very active here on FSD these past few months my eyes had been opened to all of the flaws of DOA4. I now understand why so many people hate it and why DOA pretty much died following DOA4's release.

As you said, I don't hate the game, as I still have fun playing it, but I can now acknowledge that it sucks as a true competitive fighter.
 

Brute

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
I appreciate that people give it a bad rap in terms of balance because it's not on-par with many other fighters, but honestly, I still rate it as one of the best fighters out in the "new generation" (360 onwards) because the most important thing for me is: "Did I have fun?" The answer: "Yes." Smooth controls, lots of command inputs, smooth animation, not over-dramatized with annoying-ass hit effects (which I will be disabling in DOA5) or fucking fire emanating from people's hands as they do an uppercut, unique, cool feels for a good cast of characters, etc.

The fact is that a lot of more technical fighters bore me. Now, that's not to say that being technical is a bad thing. It's not. It's a great thing, and DOA4 could have benefited from better balancing, etc. a great deal. But, in comparison to recent fighters I've played (MvC3, MK9, SFIV, SCIV) I still prefer DOA4. The flow of everything is so off in all those games (better in MK9 than the others) that moving and attacking just feels wrong. There's no momentum. Everything's static, and often revolves around pushing someone into an invisible corner (end of the stage) and spamming a bunch of cheap-as-shit juggles. Attacks never feel or flow naturally, and they look horrible (SF being the worst offender, MK9 the least).

MvC probably has more annoying, obscuring effects than SF, but some actually look cool depending on character (Vergil), whereas in SF Ibuki is the only character I visually like to watch her moves, and even so it gets stale quickly due to her ridiculously short moveset and over-dependence on the same attacks.

Then, you get these awful tag games that charge you $60 for some shit that should be incorporated into a normal release. Like seriously, why must you ALWAYS do a 2 on 2 fight that ends with the first KO in SFvT? You should have that selectable. Same goes for Tekken Tag. Why wasn't a tag featured released as optional content in a normal release? "Does anyone else notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!" -Mugatu

SCIV is atrocious in every which way. No specifics need to be given as I don't feel it did anything right.

Long story short, DOA4 could have been better, a lot better. But, I'll always come to DOA as my fighter of choice because no other fighter looks or feels as good. MvC3 may be more balanced or technical (though personally I find it about as balanced as a toddler fighting Terry Crews. Vergil,Zero,Dante>Every other mother-fucker in there), but it doesn't matter to me unless I enjoy playing it. Which I do, to an extent, but I will never enjoy it as much as DOA due to it's limited gameplay options (always 3 on 3), sticky controls, odd flow and poor visual flare. The same can be said for most other fighters, though a commendable note should be handed to MK9 which while a far cry from any DOA game aside from 1, is still a very good, fun, and entertaining game in its own right.

Anyway, hopefully I just ragged on all your favorite fighters and got some people butthurt, but remember that's just what appeals to me personally.
 

Raansu

Well-Known Member
Whether you had fun with DoA4 or not is irrelevant. The fact remains that DoA4 is a fundamentally flawed fighting game.
 

Brute

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Whether you had fun with DoA4 or not is irrelevant. The fact remains that DoA4 is a fundamentally flawed fighting game.
Relativism, Utilitarianism, Existentialism, Subjectivism, Individualism, Objectivism
You're welcome to that opinion, and I respect it, but there is no universality on "Fundamentally Unflawed Fighting game" or what constitutes such a thing.

I am glad that Team Ninja is putting such a large effort into fixing a lot of the problems with DOA4, but I don't find it utterly useless.
 

Raansu

Well-Known Member
Relativism, Utilitarianism, Existentialism, Subjectivism, Individualism, Objectivism
You're welcome to that opinion, and I respect it, but there is no universality on "Fundamentally Unflawed Fighting game" or what constitutes such a thing.

I am glad that Team Ninja is putting such a large effort into fixing a lot of the problems with DOA4, but I don't find it utterly useless.

It's not an opinion. This subject has been beaten to death a million times over. From a competitive standpoint DoA4 was not a good fighter. There is no arguing this, it has been proven over and over again. You like DoA4, that's great, I'm glad you enjoyed it, but it is still irrelevant to the proven facts of why DoA4 was fundamentally bad. You're welcome to believe otherwise but you are going to alone with that belief on this site as there really is no argument you can make to refute the problems that made DoA4 a bad fighting game from a competitive point of view. Casually you can believe whatever you want as DoA4 was a perfectly fine casual fighter.
 

Brute

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
for most of the new people take your time and read this thread. It explains a lot. In the end most of us don't really hate DOA4. Its just the lest liked in the series. The same as street fighter the movie game in the capcom community lol
http://www.freestepdodge.com/threads/why-is-doa-4-0-better-than-4-1.485/
Interesting. Been checking out some of those charts. Thanks for the link(s).

@Raansu: Unless there has been some empirical standard established for what that terminology means, then yes, it is and always will be an interpretive opinion. If you have such a definition and tested it via a proper statistical analysis, than I will rescind my earlier statement. Basically what you're saying is that "bad" or "flawed" is not based on interpretive opinion, and is established by some universal truth. That is simply not true.
 

Chaos

Well-Known Member
The short answer to your questions is that they slowed down throw speeds from 4, 5, 6, or 7 frame start up throws to a range of 5-12 start up throws depending on character. This made it so you really couldn't punish holds with throws on reaction like you could in DOA2 and DOA3.

Even then, there are many times in DOA4 where the player can hold immediately after getting hit and actually recover from the hold before the attacking player recovered from the attack that stunned the holding player, granting them frame advantage for being hit.
I really want to know why did TN stripped away all of the mechanics that could of made DOA4 competitive?
 

Raansu

Well-Known Member
Interesting. Been checking out some of those charts. Thanks for the link(s).

@Raansu: Unless there has been some empirical standard established for what that terminology means, then yes, it is and always will be an interpretive opinion. If you have such a definition and tested it via a proper statistical analysis, than I will rescind my earlier statement. Basically what you're saying is that "bad" or "flawed" is not based on interpretive opinion, and is established by some universal truth. That is simply not true.

*sigh*
Go read the first page and figure it out for yourself...or don't, I don't really care anymore. I'm not getting into this same repetitive argument again.

I really want to know did TN stripped away all of the mechanics that could of made DOA4 competitive?

Yes, everything in X05 that was making DoA4 into a solid game was removed by launch and the stuff they missed was eventually removed completely with the patch. DoA4 was a bare bone fighter with limited tools to work with.
 
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