Why do you guys hate DOA4¿

Brute

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Wow dude you are so far off base here it's not even funny. If the word bad is always subjective then I guess I should start doing drugs huh? Because apparently those being bad is just subjective even though we all know medically that doing heavy drugs is not exactly the best thing for your health. Believe me I would know, I've seen my sister go down that path.
You should not do everything that is not "bad," as that literally entails everything. But, drugs are not universally bad (note that "drugs" is a large umbrella term, however). They can be for an individual, but not necessarily in a universal context. From a utilitarian standpoint, if you have more to gain from drugs than you lose, it is not bad for the individual. The tricky thing with drugs is that they alter proper analysis and perception, often leading to immature analysis of delayed vs instant gratification. A large amount of them have more negative effects than positive ones, but because due to the drugs an individual can't rationally discern that, and thus they are caught in a causal loop.
Personal experience illuminates, but does not demonstrate. I'm sorry to hear about your sister, but that does not provide any "proof" that drugs are universally bad.

Wow dude you are so far off base here it's not even funny. If the word bad You're literally just throwing out semantics and debating on a subject you have no understanding of.
To the contrary, I know exactly what I'm talking about.

No one is telling you to dislike DoA4 or to stop playing it, but like it or not it is a fact that DoA4 is fundamentally flawed.
Agreed on both points. That is not what I'm debating. Ironically, the second quote segement in this post addresses the very issue you are faced with now.

As Rikuto said, the last seven years were not imaginary. The game has been broken down piece by piece both on paper and in practice. It has been proven to be a bad fighting game on a competitive level.
You may try using the word "unsuccessful" which amusingly has a more relevant and appropriate application here than "bad." I'm more opposed to your rhetoric than your argument.

You can enjoy it casually all you want, but there is no argument to the fact that DoA4 is a garbage game when it comes to competitive game play. This is not an opinion, this is a fact.
Opinions can be based on facts and are never wrong. I wish you'd stop assuming that the word carries such a negative connotation. Regardless, you do not seem to understand what the word means and the large scope it encompasses.

Go read the first page of this thread dude. It's explained pretty well why the game is bad.
I did. And a lot of valid points were made to argue the opinion or theory that it is bad. And I appreciate those opinions and largely agree with them. It does not change the fact that they are opinions, however.

And yes, I am arguing semantics as when something is called "bad," it is impossible to approach the subject from any angle without doing so, as you're dealing with a subjective/interpretive debate (or, if it pleases the raging fanboys/anti-fanboys, "explanation").
 

Jefffcore

Well-Known Member
What's the point of debating semantics? Nothing's gained. Everyone understands what you're trying to say, and you understand what everyone else is saying. 'Nuff said.
 

Raansu

Well-Known Member
You should not do everything that is not "bad," as that literally entails everything. But, drugs are not universally bad (note that "drugs" is a large umbrella term, however). They can be for an individual, but not necessarily in a universal context. From a utilitarian standpoint, if you have more to gain from drugs than you lose, it is not bad for the individual. The tricky thing with drugs is that they alter proper analysis and perception, often leading to immature analysis of delayed vs instant gratification. A large amount of them have more negative effects than positive ones, but because due to the drugs an individual can't rationally discern that, and thus they are caught in a causal loop.
Personal experience illuminates, but does not demonstrate. I'm sorry to hear about your sister, but that does not provide any "proof" that drugs are universally bad.


To the contrary, I know exactly what I'm talking about.


Agreed on both points. That is not what I'm debating. Ironically, the second quote segement in this post addresses the very issue you are faced with now.


You may try using the word "unsuccessful" which amusingly has a more relevant and appropriate application here than "bad." I'm more opposed to your rhetoric than your argument.


Opinions can be based on facts and are never wrong. I wish you'd stop assuming that the word carries such a negative connotation. Regardless, you do not seem to understand what the word means and the large scope it encompasses.


I did. And a lot of valid points were made to argue the opinion or theory that it is bad. And I appreciate those opinions and largely agree with them. It does not change the fact that they are opinions, however.

And yes, I am arguing semantics as when something is called "bad," it is impossible to approach the subject from any angle without doing so, as you're dealing with a subjective/interpretive debate (or, if it pleases the raging fanboys/anti-fanboys, "explanation").


Holy shit balls on a stick you are literally just barfing words onto the screen with no context. You literally have no idea what you are talking about... That first paragraph alone is just...WOW. I think anyone in the medical science field would like to have a word with you.

As for the rest of the stuff you spewed onto the screen, I'm not even going to bother. This isn't a debate, this you attempting to straw man an argument that I have no interest in getting into yet somehow I keep replying. I've been through this "debate" a hundred times over and I'm sick of it.
 

Brute

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Everyone understands what you're saying,
Actually, they don't. =D But you're right in that it likely won't lead to any "gains."
Then again, beyond the first three posts, it becomes known why so many people view DOA4 unfavorably. I'd say the rest of the thread has derailed into several "new" conversations, but I see your point. Regardless, semantics were discussed from the beginning, intentionally or otherwise.

Holy shit balls on a stick you are literally just barfing words onto the screen with no context. You literally have no idea what you are talking about... That first paragraph alone is just...WOW. I think anyone in the medical science field would like to have a word with you.
I doubt it, as I did not use many words relevant to the field (closer to social science).

As for the rest of the stuff you spewed onto the screen, I'm not even going to bother. This isn't a debate, this you attempting to straw man an argument that I have no interest in getting into yet somehow I keep replying. I've been through this "debate" a hundred times over and I'm sick of it.
Unlikely. You've actually been through an entirely different "debate," as you're on a completely different page, figuratively speaking. But as you wish.
 

Jefffcore

Well-Known Member
Actually, they don't. =D But you're right in that it likely won't lead to any "gains."
Then again, beyond the first three posts, it becomes known why so many people view DOA4 unfavorably. I'd say the rest of the thread has derailed into several "new" conversations, but I see your point. Regardless, semantics were discussed from the beginning, intentionally or otherwise.
Understand, not necessarily agree.

Things are only as we perceive them. DOA4 is backwards, but if someone wants that it wouldn't be considered bad to them. The word bad itself is only as someone perceives it.

BUT from a competitive stand point, I don't think there's a high level player out there that wouldn't tell you DOA4 is "competitively bad", making this whole argument moot. :p

P.S. The medical field is a lie.
 

Rikuto

P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
So in other words, you would like to argue semantics, not actual viability.

Alright... well, semantics are good and fun and I can respect that, but I'm not really up for arguing them.
 

Ooobe

Active Member
This almost looks like fun - since people are so tired of this at this point, that no one is really raging about it anymore;). <it almost seems civil, lol>

@Brute: I have to disagree with your notion that "bad" = subjective assessment only.
From Dictionary.com, not the best reference, but I'm lazy and cheap.

bad
1   <a onmousedown="spk(this,{lk:'nx1fkx',en:'wotdau',io:'0',b:'wotd',tp:'lrl',m:'wotdau'})" href="#"></a><a target="_blank" href="http://dictionary.reference.com/audio.html/lunaWAV/B00/B0029300"><img border="0" src="http://static.sfdict.com/dictstatic/g/d/speaker.gif"></a> [bad] Show IPA adjective, worse, worst; ( Slang ) bad·der, bad·dest for 36; noun; adverb adjective
1. not good in any manner or degree.
2. having a wicked or evil character; morally reprehensible: There is no such thing as a bad boy.
3. of poor or inferior quality; defective; deficient: a bad diamond; a bad spark plug.
4. inadequate or below standard; not satisfactory for use: bad heating; Living conditions in some areas are very bad.
5. inaccurate, incorrect, or faulty: a bad guess. <lol @ "a bad guess" perfect example for DOA4>

If I set out to make a bus, (competetive fighting game) and instead build a unicycle (DOA4), I've built a bad bus, in that it completely fails to be what it purports to be. It does not meet the criteria required of it and is hence "bad". I'm confident the criteria and DOA4's failure to meet them have been enumerated. No subjective assessment required.;)
By the way, if you're going to make it a habit to point out the inaccuracy in everyone's posts, you've taken on a full time job. English is unfortunately a horrifically vague language <hence the preponderance and success of laywers> and not everyone is naturally inclined or able to fully elucidate every comment they make. Be that through a lack of language skills or simple disinterest. It may serve you to attempt to infer their intent, and helpfully point out how they may have made their point more succinctly or precisely, in effort to confirm your interpretation of their words.
All of us are prone to error, some of us accept that.
 

Brute

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
So in other words, you would like to argue semantics, not actual viability.
Alright... well, semantics are good and fun and I can respect that, but I'm not really up for arguing them.
I believe they are intertwined.

@Ooobe: all the descriptions you put in bold (Good, poor, quality, deficient, inadequate, standard) require some constructed scale. That scale is socially constructed, and always dependent upon an individual.
"Defective" is the only word that carries a less interpretive meaning, as the scale for judging that is typically dependent on the creator's intent rather than your expectation. If you have evidence that Team Ninja felt their product was bad/defective, than that's a legitimate point. Otherwise, you're arguing that it's not interpretive via more interpretive language/concepts.
Again, the bus example relates to the intent of the creator, not what you expected from the creator. To my knowledge, TN has not admitted to making a bad bus/unicycle, and were convinced they made a decent fighter. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong in that assumption, as I certainly am not aware of every press release made by TN.

The end of your post which deals directly with assuming the intent of you/others (not TN, separate it seems) is a fair point, but unfortunately it's easier said than done. For example, if I went around saying that Hayabusa was irredeemably flawed (when I in fact mean that he only had certain imperfections that are a far cry from "breaking" the character), you can see where inferring intent from what was written becomes difficult.
 

Ooobe

Active Member
@Ooobe: all the descriptions you put in bold (Good, poor, quality, deficient, inadequate, standard) require some constructed scale. That scale is socially constructed, and always dependent upon an individual.
"Defective" is the only word that carries a less interpretive meaning, as the scale for judging that is typically dependent on the creator's intent rather than your expectation. If you have evidence that Team Ninja felt their product was bad/defective, than that's a legitimate point. Otherwise, you're arguing that it's not interpretive via more interpretive language/concepts.
Again, the bus example relates to the intent of the creator, not what you expected from the creator. To my knowledge, TN has not admitted to making a bad bus/unicycle, and were convinced they made a decent fighter. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong in that assumption, as I certainly am not aware of every press release made by TN.

The end of your post which deals directly with assuming the intent of you/others (not TN, separate it seems) is a fair point, but unfortunately it's easier said than done. For example, if I went around saying that Hayabusa was irredeemably flawed (when I in fact mean that he only had certain imperfections that are a far cry from "breaking" the character), you can see where inferring intent from what was written becomes difficult.

Actually, those terms were highlighted as applicable definitions of the word "bad".
Within the context of this site (a social construct, for future reference), the creators intent is irrelevant. The context is first and foremost: competetive viability. That's the framework within which this site functions. Sadly, any other frame of reference should be explicitly stated and will then likely be dismissed. ;)
So to sum: "Why we you guys hate DOA4?" - because it is bad. =P
Off topic: Obviously, as a species, we function through consensus. (your socially constructed scale) Step too far outside of it and you get locked away or medicated, <no modern day prophets - lol> but please don't reach for existential quandries or the quantum mechanical necessity of an observer to somehow "prove" that we are wrong in saying that DOA4 is bad.
Oh and the last part has nothing to do with "assuming" the intent of others, but attempting to understand, and validating ones interpretation through contribution, hence dialogue, followed by growth. Yes, I agree with your comment, you got that part right. Nice job and I somehow doubt the difficulty would be beyond your abilities.
And finally, one of your defining arguments contains a logical fallacy: "That scale is socially constructed, and always dependent upon an individual." It is a social construction, but because of that it is NOT dependant on an individual, but social consensus. Subject to individual interpretation, certainly, but that does not place the individual beyond the scope of being viewed as wrong.

<edit> just caught your last post. That's good enough for me too. :)
 

Stikku

Active Member
A part I really dislike about DOA4 (actually, DOA in general) is the grappling/throw system.

On one hand, you have fast startup throws like:
:hayabusa:
:426::F+P: :Link: :2::3::6::9::8::F+P: :Link: :8::9::6::3::2::1::4::7::8: :F+P:
that are completely unbreakable and will always beat an offensive hold.

On the other hand, you have slow OH throws for the actual grappler characters like:
:leon:
:4::6::F+P: :Link: :4::F+P: :Link: :2::F+P: :Link: :624::F+P:
that can be broken at every :Link:

Either all multiple-input throw combos should be unbreakable, regardless if they're OH or not, or none should be. It's actually kind of funny that characters with unbreakable command throws seem to be higher in the tier list. There's an obvious unbalancing dysfunction going on there.

EDIT:
It just occurred to me that the Leon combo throw I referred to is not actually an OH. I probably should have used
:bayman:
:214::F+P::Link::4::F+P: :Link: :2::F+P:

Despite the game acknowledging a difference between Combo Throws and Combo Holds, the fact that in my original example, both the throws are Combo Throws and should easily show the difference between an escapable and inescapable counterpart. The Izuna Drop does less damage than Leon's combo throw, if performed fully - but it's much easier to hit those 2 inescapable Izuna commands for the full damage, than it is to hit the 3 escapable commands on Leon's.

Also worth noting for the sake of the proceeding posts, leon's :3::3::F+P::Link::P: tackle can be ended with an inescapable :2::F+P:
 

Brute

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
The Izuna Otoshi is a solitary exception in that it is the only chain/combo throw in DOA4 that is unbreakable (I believe Ryu's Izuna counters also fall into the same vein for multi-part counters).
 

Brute

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Lisa, Brad, and Kokoro each have one unbreakable combo throw.
Learn new stuff every day. Haven't played with those characters as much, so I wouldn't know.
Is Lisa's that super-long one where she plays breakdance all over you before chucking you off to the side?
 
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