Why is DOA 5 considered non-competitive ?

[GLoRToR]

Why is DOA 5 considered non-competitive according to the general FGC on the web?

1. It was the first game to add more sexuality to the characters altogether. For some reason, in the United States, ripping somebody's spinal column is fine but having big tits is not.

2. It's not Mortal Kombat and not Street Fighter but still competes those titles in the sense that it is a fist fighting game. Soul Calibur having brought weapons into the equation of a fighting game makes it something special while DoA is far less represented as its own unique title, partly because of point 1. With Tekken's supremacy as "The 3D fighter" alongside VF as the most technical and most balanced fighting game to date, DoA has it hard to find its spot on the market.

3. The previous version's reception was below average. I didn't play it so I can't elaborate on that, but it is fact that if a title gets bad reception at any episode, the next one may be any fantastic, it will start with a negative popularity score with all but the most biased fans or unbiased newcomers.

4. While every fighting game has its own bullshit (Read: Moves that are overpowered, even single characters that are better than the rest) perhaps with the exception of VirtuaFighter, DoA's attempts at being a fairer game have been unheard of and misinterpreted. You need to understand: When there is a Yang or Kung Lao, having no supreme character in a game will always be a WTF moment for the same people who think that murder is fine but sensuality is "lol" because in the end these same people will rage if you fatality them, and go fap at DoA's bouncing tits to let off steam.

 

[Haipa Sonikku]

It's real simple. All fighting games do fan service. Dead or Alive does it much better. Most fighting games allow you to get away with that foolishness. Dead or Alive does not.

 

[Ace Flibble]

^ DOA nicked the whole slimpy outfit & giant bouncing boobs thing from Fatal Fury/King Of Fighters, it wasn't the first, and DOA4 was recieved fairly well. In fact to the best of my knowledge it was the first DOA game to be accepted into the North American/Canadian tournament scene, at least for its first year.

But yeah, I can certainly see how NA/Canada's weird relationship with sexuality and violence could be a large contributing factor to DOA not being taken as seriously there as it is in other parts of the world. The film rating system in America is so backwards in terms of how strict it is on nudity, sex and language but how utterly lax it is on violence. Then randomly you've got stuff like Mike Tyson being a celebrated sports star and appearing in very popular comedy films even though he's a convicted rapist. America's standards when it comes to these controversial points don't make any sense to me.

 

[Haipa Sonikku]

^ DOA nicked the whole slimpy outfit & giant bouncing boobs thing from Fatal Fury/King Of Fighters, it wasn't the first.

As one that played Garou Densetsu 2 before most back in '92, I'm bout that. However the reason why Dead or Alive does much better is simply because its in 3D space, therefore its rooted in reality (though obviously by how much) unlike 2D in which automatically the mind labels as fantasy. See Mortal Kombat vs. Grand Theft Auto III. Final Fantasy VI vs. Final Fantasy VII. Ninja Gaiden vs. Ninja Gaiden '04.

 

[Tulkas]

Punishing whiffed holds with Hi Counter throws is fairly easy once you know your opponent's tendencies. You can even just use neutral throws, which are fast, easy to input, and when they land Hi Counter, become unbreakable.

I tested neutral throws becoming unbreakable and that's not true. Even escape windows gets reduced...

 

[DR2K]

I tested neutral throws becoming unbreakable and that's not true. Even escape windows gets reduced...

Did you do it on hicounter?

 

[virtuaPAI]

Overall the game is pretty good! What most people dont realise, Doa5 allows alot more juggling(guranteed damage) than anyother doa, and it is so damn frequent. It happens at times it was never possible before. In addition with character specific tools and setups, it creates a well rounded game.

 

[VirtuaKazama]

When people who have think they have an idea on how DOA is played, they look at it as a button masher friendly game. They don't count the technical points at all.

I remember when I first got DOA5 weeks ago, I wanted to focus more on DOA and VF than SF and MK. I have a friend who really hates 3D fighters and he told me this:

"lol you are gonna drop MK and SF for DOA? Is button mashing really that fun?"

By reading that, I kept my cool because I'm not gonna rage about it. Funny thing is that he thinks I'm dropping MK and SF for DOA. DOA is technical whether you like it or not. Counter Holds, free stepping, you name it. Casuals won't get it, but those who are learning the game or knows the game gets it.

And FSD is a great community. The DOA community and the VF community are both great. Even though I'm struggling to level up (because of this button-mashing problem that I'm trying to solve), I have to keep playing no matter what.

 

[Ace Flibble]

The whole 'button-mashing' thing is silly. Someone picks up a game that they've already written off in their head, hits a few buttons randomly and when their character does a move they decide that means the game is a 'button-masher'. What a huge surprise, when you hit the punch button your character does a punch! Obviously that makes the game a button-masher.

Any fighting game can be labelled a button-masher if you go into it wanting to think that way. Just as any FPS or TPS game can be called mindless spray-and-praying. People can't seem to separate "what I did in the first thirty seconds I touched the game" from "what the game actually is".

 

[Django]

I tested neutral throws becoming unbreakable and that's not true. Even escape windows gets reduced...

Did you do it on hicounter?

only some neutral throws become unbreakable on counter, i.e. Tina neutral throw on counter/hicounter.

 

[damedame]

I personally feel DOA is the most competitive fighter out there.

So many fighters have the "one mistake and your helpless at your opponents mercy and must watch while he combos you 20 hits and takes off 3/4 or more of your life bar" mentality that juts makes me SICK. They're pathetic.

If I'm playing a game, I want it to be FUN. If someone's beating on me, I wanna be able to at least TRY to defend myself.


Think of sports (basketball, football, baseball) or even strategy games (GO, Chess, etc...)
One mistake isn't the end of the game. It's never a GOOD thing, but there's always an opportunity to try come back. If a football game ended after one touchdown, I doubt it'd be nearly as popular.

Hrm, Sorry this was written poorly. I'm tired, but I think I got my point across.

 

[Kiku]

My question to you guys is this:
Does DOA 5 lack the depth to be considered a strong competitive game?
If not, then could anybody give me a reason for why it flies so low under the radar?

As mentioned before by other users:

- Strong sexual content (although games like SC are almost similar in terms of asses and titties)

- Counter Hold. Many people still remember the holds in doa2, which were much easier to perform and caused massive damage. 1/4 of your normal healthbar.

- imo the most important point, when you just consider 3D-fighting games: Tekken was the first real 3D fighting game the people came in touch with when the PS1 came out, so that was the game everyone played back in the days. We would have a complete different situation today if DoA or SC were published first.

I don't hate Tekken btw, i just can't stand the fact that people say things like "Tekken is more complex or competitive", just because they don't know DoA well enough.

I personally feel DOA is the most competitive fighter out there.

So many fighters have the "one mistake and your helpless at your opponents mercy and must watch while he combos you 20 hits and takes off 3/4 or more of your life bar" mentality that juts makes me SICK. They're pathetic.

If I'm playing a game, I want it to be FUN. If someone's beating on me, I wanna be able to at least TRY to defend myself.

There's nothing wrong about it. If the enemy is able to break through your defense, you deserve to be punished. In that case, you have to learn from your mistakes. I'm pretty sure you mean games like p4A or GG. In that case you still have the option to use your burst. DoA can be competitve, but i never would place it on the same level like GG or VF.

Hokuto no Ken doesn't count, that's a combo game

 

[Tulkas]

only some neutral throws become unbreakable on counter, i.e. Tina neutral throw on counter/hicounter.

I feel it's not fair...

 

[X_Fact0r]

Most people here hit the big points I was going to say, counters and grab damage off someone whiffing a counter doing ridiculous damage in past games, no true guaranteed combos, along with newer communities that didn't know about fighters before 09. Just play the game you like honestly and you will find people to play with. Each game, 3d or 2d, has some level of complexity. It just comes down to how much you want to deal with the game's bs since each fighter has some of it.

 

[daman077c]

There's nothing wrong about it. If the enemy is able to break through your defense, you deserve to be punished. In that case, you have to learn from your mistakes. I'm pretty sure you mean games like p4A or GG. In that case you still have the option to use your burst. DoA can be competitve, but i never would place it on the same level like GG or VF.

Yes, but again, it doesn't make it FUN. Guilty Gear/BlazBlue/Persona 4 Arena all have the "burst" system, where you can get out of a combo free, but Tekken, for example, is just a "whiff punish until you can launch, then 10 hit combo them, then ground re-launch them for another 3-4 hits" game; you can poke and throw, but juggling is the main form of damage in the game, and has been turned up to 11 since Tekken 5 came out. I grew up playing Tekken, and 1-4 weren't overly juggle heavy like it is now.

 

[SilverKhaos]

As mentioned before by other users:

- Strong sexual content (although games like SC are almost similar in terms of asses and titties)

- Counter Hold. Many people still remember the holds in doa2, which were much easier to perform and caused massive damage. 1/4 of your normal healthbar.

- imo the most important point, when you just consider 3D-fighting games: Tekken was the first real 3D fighting game the people came in touch with when the PS1 came out, so that was the game everyone played back in the days. We would have a complete different situation today if DoA or SC were published first.

I don't hate Tekken btw, i just can't stand the fact that people say things like "Tekken is more complex or competitive", just because they don't know DoA well enough.


There's nothing wrong about it. If the enemy is able to break through your defense, you deserve to be punished. In that case, you have to learn from your mistakes. I'm pretty sure you mean games like p4A or GG. In that case you still have the option to use your burst. DoA can be competitve, but i never would place it on the same level like GG or VF.

Hokuto no Ken doesn't count, that's a combo game

Kay, I'm sorry, but I hate it when people try to use that "if you get hit, you deserve to be punished" nonsense as an excuse. Getting hit is the punishment. Getting hit 10-30 times and losing your entire life bar after being hit once without being able to do much about it, isn't being punished. Thats the game holding your (the attacker) hand and babying you instead of making you work for your damage. "here, rather than making you decide on an appropriate heavy attack to punish them, we'll just hold them in the air for you like a pinata and take their controls away from them so you can wail on them with no fear of repercussions". (I say that not as an attack on you personally, I"m speaking generally).

Unfortunately, most gamers are REALLY spoiled and can't comprehend that. Kinda like when you hear somebody say a game without juggles would suck/not work. That's mostly just kids whining about having to work for their damage instead of being able to rely on "free/guaranteed" damage. I've actually had people ask "What's the point of attacking if there's no guaranteed damage?" How sad is that?

Blah. Again, not arguing with/attacking you or anything, just venting, don't take this response personal.

 

[Raansu]

Without guaranteed damage you have DoA4, and that game was trash because everyone used the same strategy.

 

[daman077c]

Without guaranteed damage you have DoA4, and that game was trash because everyone used the same strategy.

That's why I like 5 the way I do, it's definitely a step in the right direction for the series. Guaranteed damage and unholdable stuns just made the game that much better. Next is to shorten the number of hits to get a CB, and remove the ability to slow escape sitdown stun, and that's about it. Maybe add another unholdable stun? *shrugs shoulders*

 

[CrimsonCJ]

Yes, but again, it doesn't make it FUN. Guilty Gear/BlazBlue/Persona 4 Arena all have the "burst" system, where you can get out of a combo free, but Tekken, for example, is just a "whiff punish until you can launch, then 10 hit combo them, then ground re-launch them for another 3-4 hits" game; you can poke and throw, but juggling is the main form of damage in the game, and has been turned up to 11 since Tekken 5 came out. I grew up playing Tekken, and 1-4 weren't overly juggle heavy like it is now.

I agree with this. It's favoring learned execution rather than decision-making made by players, which is really what a good game should favor first and foremost. The more a game tells players they need to spend time thinking about how to maximize one decision versus deciding between different ones, the worse off it is. It also creates somewhat artificial barriers; players who might take the time to learn to make excellent reads and gambits aren't always the same people who will want to string moves together.

Plus, it's unsightly. Seriously, fighting games should be about fighting, not people playing a glorified version of virtual volleyball. Games that have some more fantastic or stylistic elements (say, UMvC3 or P4A) can get away with it and sometimes can even make certain juggle situations strategic (always good); in 3D fighters like Tekken, DOA, and VF, the more extreme that element gets the less interesting and dynamic the game looks.

(Not that some insane stuff like characters flying across the stage is necessarily bad, but that's different.)

 

[ItsDaveyJ]

Perhaps you all can share some of your insight with me then, because I'm one of those players who are trying to play this game seriously for the first time and I'm having a hard time adjusting (in other words, if you were to ask for my current opinion based on my experience with the game so far, then I would say it doesn't appear to be competitive).

I'm mainly a 2D fighting game player. I've played Street Fighter, Marvel, Blazblue, etc. and I'm trying to transition into playing this game at a relatively decent level. But I'm having a hard time taking it seriously because it does feel like people are just button mashing. Granted, I'm playing online so I'm sure my competition aren't all players of reputable skill. But it seems like what people are doing are just throwing out random strings and staggering the inputs of that string. It seems like they are also adjusting the last hit or so of said strings so as to not get predictable and get countered. In the end though, it still feels like people mainly are mashing. As compared to say, Street Fighter where most characters have one or two moves people tend to mash (Shoryuken for example) in this game it seems like people are randomly throwing out one of the many moves their character has in hopes that "well maybe this will work." The whole game at this point for me feels like a guessing game. And this could very well be just my lack of understanding for my character, but I use Leifang. It seems like whenever I try to do something, whoever is button mashing on the other end winds up getting the hit in first and stuffing any offense I try to mount. Unless it's someone like Bayman. I especially dread the start of the round because most characters seem to be able to just dash up into my face before the match begins and then throw out their fastest moves which all seem to be faster than mine. I either have to block or counter right away or it seems like guaranteed damage for my opponent at the start of the round.

Now, I'm not going to give up on this game quite yet. I'm sure I'm just approaching it with an incorrect mindset and I need to adjust. If anyone has some stories about how they are adjusting to the game it could be helpful to read. But as of this moment right now, it's hard for me to think of this game as a competitive game because it feels too random (which I'm sure seems hypocritical considering I like playing Marvel). So I'm wondering if many people who are just giving this game a try for the first time feel the same way I do. Thus giving it the "non-competitive" reputation.