Xbox360 1.03 patch delayed until February

phoenix1985gr

Active Member
I m just gonna say this here because in the other thread you may have missed... Today i played online with a jahn lee player, he did dragon gunner into 6h+k then the jumping kick that sitdowns that i failed to hold, but i tried to hold mid punch without slow escaping and i holded his cb (this happened twice)... I went to training to test leifangs sitdown by recording and i couldnt hold the cb after the sitdown without slowescaping, but stil i would like someone to test some more cause if the glitch makes sitdowns holdable it need to go away... (i could have holded because of lag, although i ve never done it prepatch even once, and i think the glitch only applies on online and versus and i dont have anyone to test with)
 

Yaguar

Well-Known Member
I m just gonna say this here because in the other thread you may have missed... Today i played online with a jahn lee player, he did dragon gunner into 6h+k then the jumping kick that sitdowns that i failed to hold, but i tried to hold mid punch without slow escaping and i holded his cb (this happened twice)... I went to training to test leifangs sitdown by recording and i couldnt hold the cb after the sitdown without slowescaping, but stil i would like someone to test some more cause if the glitch makes sitdowns holdable it need to go away... (i could have holded because of lag, although i ve never done it prepatch even once, and i think the glitch only applies on online and versus and i dont have anyone to test with)

I'll come on tomorrow evening Phoenix.
/Blitz
 

Rikuto

P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
Yall betta mod the game heh, cause aint nobody playing no DOA with no hold system. Yall can gtfo with that, no offense.

It's been done before.

And nobody is talking about that right now. Tuck your insecurities away, people. I know you guys love to argue in cycles over various things that aren't related to each other, but thats not really the topic today.
 

Raansu

Well-Known Member
Yall betta mod the game heh, cause aint nobody playing no DOA with no hold system. Yall can gtfo with that, no offense.

Sorry but that's just not true. Been to 3 tournaments now, each of which I was begging people to play DoA. Each of which only had about 10 people show up for DoA while SF4 had 70+ for each one and MvC3 had 50-60+ as well and even Persona managed to bring in 30+.

I talked to a lot of the people at these events and they all had literally the exact same response. "The hold system makes the game too random." Coming from marvel players that says A LOT about how the general FGC views DoA. They see it as nothing more than paper,rock,scissors, a pure guessing game that takes no skill. And for the most part, I agree with them. Defensive holds are a negative aspect of DoA that will always do more harm than good to the game.
 

P1naatt1ke1tt0

Active Member
"The hold system makes the game too random." Coming from marvel players that says A LOT about how the general FGC views DoA. They see it as nothing more than paper,rock,scissors, a pure guessing game that takes no skill. And for the most part, I agree with them. Defensive holds are a negative aspect of DoA that will always do more harm than good to the game.

The argument is all too familiar, but it simply isn't true. The same top players seem to dominate both online and offline, and they wouldn't if just random guessing would grant you a win. How does the FGC explain this?
 

Virtua Mima

Active Member
im sorry but that's just it I'm fed up of TN continuously letting us down, letting ME down. They are sloppy as hell and I wish i could have my MONEY back not because I'm cheap but because they don't deserve any of it.
 

Brute

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Sorry but that's just not true. Been to 3 tournaments now, each of which I was begging people to play DoA. Each of which only had about 10 people show up for DoA while SF4 had 70+ for each one and MvC3 had 50-60+ as well and even Persona managed to bring in 30+.

I talked to a lot of the people at these events and they all had literally the exact same response. "The hold system makes the game too random." Coming from marvel players that says A LOT about how the general FGC views DoA. They see it as nothing more than paper,rock,scissors, a pure guessing game that takes no skill. And for the most part, I agree with them. Defensive holds are a negative aspect of DoA that will always do more harm than good to the game.
If they want to play a game without holds, then don't play DOA. If you want to play with them on a game with no holds, there are plenty out there.

You try to get people to play DOA with you when you criticize what's at the core of what makes the game unique. If you want sans holds, play Tekken or something. Your continual dedication to trying to make DOA into other fighters that already exist is pointless and stupid.

If you hate what's at the core of the game, quit playing it. Your bitching isn't going to cure your cognitive dissonance.
 

Chaos

Well-Known Member
TN should remove slow escape for good (for guaranteed sitdown stuns only). If they do, this would officially separate DOA5 from the previous series (DOA4) imo.
 

Skilletor

Active Member
If they want to play a game without holds, then don't play DOA. If you want to play with them on a game with no holds, there are plenty out there.

You try to get people to play DOA with you when you criticize what's at the core of what makes the game unique. If you want sans holds, play Tekken or something. Your continual dedication to trying to make DOA into other fighters that already exist is pointless and stupid.

If you hate what's at the core of the game, quit playing it. Your bitching isn't going to cure your cognitive dissonance.

It's not holds that make DoA unique. It's the broken stun system. Stop acting as if the stun system has always been as stupid as it has been in the past two games. Was DoA1 not DoA somehow? DoA2? DoA3? DoA is still DoA without the dumbass stun system which is actually the point of contention many have with DoA. Not the counters.

People ARE playing other fighters. Few people are playing DoA. Stop with this silly logic.
 

Doug Nguyen

Well-Known Member
Am i the only player that likes the defensive holds? Its kinda what got me hooked to DOA. I loved testing everyones holds to see the cool animations. Yeah they are annoying sometimes but i feel the rock, paper, scissors works for DOA.
 

P1naatt1ke1tt0

Active Member
That's because no one goes to DoA tournaments so its always the same 10 people. If you ever actually bother to watch a DoA finals tournament and actually pay attention to what is going on, the winner always boils down to who guessed correctly.

But there are also the same 5 or so players in Europe who dominate online play. It doesn't boil down to just guessing, but good spacing, good poking (or good neutral game in general) and also to good guessing. Meaning intelligent guessing, not random. There are these guys who regularly rake in 10-20 win streaks online even against A+ level players or so. I'm not one of these top players but one of these A+ players that get bodied.
 

Rikuto

P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
Let me put it this way fellas... let's pretend we're soul calibur players, and the current argument is "if you don't wanna deal with guard impacts, dont play soul calibur".

Well in SCV at least, there is meter that GI's are dependent upon. So if you wanna take one out of the picture completely, you make them drain their meter, or you whiff punishment them with a nasty stun so its never going to affect your strategy. But they are still a big part of the game. They exist, and if you put yourself in a situation where they can affect they, they do their job.

Now we take the same kind of situation and go over to DOA. In DOA, you have the hold. The difference is a lack of meter and that most stuns don't affect the ability to hold. The problem here is that now every time you want to avoid the hold you can't use any real strategy, you just have pray you pick rock over scissors every single time you strike.

Thats not a strategy, thats just manifesting your guess. Strategy would be if you chose set of tactics with its own set of drawbacks that avoided the hold entirely. For example, choosing only to use slower attacks that created unholdable stuns. This removes the hold from the equation, but it is still a part of the game and it is preventing you from using faster options. It is there, doing its purpose.

In fact, if you come in and start wailing on me with some kind of psuedo frame trap that forces me to use a faster attack, then I HAVE to deal with it there too. And I'm ok with that, so long as I have my opportunity to get around it.

So we're still playing DOA. Holds are still there. We just have a way to disarm them. If you choose not to play that way, you'll have your own set of advantages... you'll be much faster and more likely to form an offense.


Right now, Bayman gets a sit down stun off of P+K and it leads into around 40% damage on average. It works up to counter-hit. The catch is that it only does the sit down on the very first hit and its like a 20 frame attack with no range whatsoever. So it can't be gone into from a faster attack or anything. Your opponent either has to walk face first into it or attack from a major disadvantage, in both cases fully deserving to take as much damage as they were dealt. It won't work on high-counter either.

Personally I would like to see more situations like this one. Moves that deal incredibly high, inescapable damage from a slow first-hit setup. Moves that punish stupidity and keep your opponent honest. Because at the end of the day, these attacks are not overpowered. They can be overcome with faster attacks provided your opponent isn't being a fool and attacking off the wall or from wakeup or something.

This gives us what we want, and it keeps the hold situation in the game for faster brawling strategies. There is absolutely no reason both elements cannot exist in one game.
 

Brute

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Personally I would like to see more situations like this one. Moves that deal incredibly high, inescapable damage from a slow first-hit setup. Moves that punish stupidity and keep your opponent honest. Because at the end of the day, these attacks are not overpowered. They can be overcome with faster attacks provided your opponent isn't being a fool and attacking off the wall or from wakeup or something.
This is why personally the Shoho Izuna is my favorite move at present.
People that don't play DoA don't know the terminology. They probably don't even call holds, holds. They'd be counters. Most people I know aren't complaining about holds being broken, but being able to escape mistakes through the stun system. Although holds and the stun system were the problem in DoA4.
I'm referring to people who have actually played the game and decided it's not for them rather than those who avoid it based solely on ignorance and reputation.
 

Skilletor

Active Member
This is why personally the Shoho Izuna is my favorite move at present.

I'm referring to people who have actually played the game and decided it's not for them rather than those who avoid it based solely on ignorance and reputation.

One can have played DoA without bothering to learn the terminology. I call holds counters. I don't refer to natural combos as 2-in-1s. I think the phrase slow escape is stupid. I think the DoA terminology is silly.

And even if they don't play it based on reputation, I have the same complaints, as do many people posting on these boards.
 

CyberEvil

Master Ninja
Staff member
Administrator
Premium Donor
I just did a really tedious magic trick and made a lot of posts that were flamebaiting, trolling, and plain insulting people disappear. Posts that were otherwise OK but quoted an offending post were also deleted. No warnings were given, but just like in the other thread I had to clean tonight, they will be if things continue.

Let's be civil, alright? It sucks that the patch has been delayed. We get it. But don't insult each other because of it. Everyone has an equal right to express their opinion. Your response should not be one trying to insult someone's opinion or choice to express it. Capice?
 

Chaos

Well-Known Member
Most. I think Raansu is in that crowd.

But there are those who asked for DHs to be removed entirely.
If TN remove DH, then people would start calling DOA a watered down Tekken. Seriously, people will say the craziest things smh.
 

grap3fruitman

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
The argument is all too familiar, but it simply isn't true. The same top players seem to dominate both online and offline, and they wouldn't if just random guessing would grant you a win. How does the FGC explain this?
Well if only five people are playing, of course you're only going to see the same five names over and over...

Am i the only player that likes the defensive holds? Its kinda what got me hooked to DOA. I loved testing everyones holds to see the cool animations. Yeah they are annoying sometimes but i feel the rock, paper, scissors works for DOA.
The hold itself isn't the issue, the hold's implementation is. Taking your rock-paper-scissors analogy, the way the hold is implemented right now is like playing rock-paper-scissors with someone that goes "Do over!" every time they lose until the one time they win. That's what the stun/hold guessing game in the latest DOAs has been like.
 

Brute

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Well if only five people are playing, of course you're only going to see the same five names over and over...


The hold itself isn't the issue, the hold's implementation is. Taking your rock-paper-scissors analogy, the way the hold is implemented right now (minus this "glitched" 1.03 patch) is like playing rock-paper-scissors with someone that goes "Do over!" every time they lose until the one time they win. That's what the stun/hold guessing game in the latest DOAs has been like.
Free-cancel and hi-counter throw punish. That gives the attacker a reward typically greater than the reward a defender gets from a successful counter (note that are some exceptions like an expert hold from Ryu in a ceiling stage). Thus, the defender is still at disadvantage after being attacked. Seeing as their also isn't a possible "tie," isn't not exactly RPS (or a 50/50 game) leaving the attacker again at advantage (also take into account that guessing has multiple forms. for example: guessing a low hold is not the same as guessing a high because it's safer, but also can miss the counter damage reward while still evading a high attack. also, expert holds on high and low add in a double-or-nothing stake). A skilled player will also learn to use sit-down stuns, launchers and other methods to minimize defensive turnover.

I do understand the point you're trying to make, but I do want to highlight that the way a lot of people exaggerate the "50/50 guessing game" does give a false impression of how the game actually works and conveniently ignores certain important details that complicate it.

This glitch offers another form of these complexities, which is why I, like many others here, am in favor of keeping it.
 
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