shunwong
Active Member
Why should I waste my hard earnt frame advantage waiting to see if my opponent holds or not? The mechanic (holds in stun) is bad. The arguments used to defend it are bad too.
Xbox360 1.03 patch delayed until February
- Thread starter FocusDMR
- Start date
Why should I waste my hard earnt frame advantage waiting to see if my opponent holds or not? The mechanic (holds in stun) is bad. The arguments used to defend it are bad too.
Doug Nguyen
Well-Known Member
Yeah I understand stand that but I feel that good players are able to play mind games and condition their opponent to their benefit. I think people here are acting a bit dramatic and making doa seem like a luck based fighting game over the holds.
NightAntilli
Well-Known Member
It is a luck based fighting game...
If I play something like VF5FS and I lose, I know exactly where I made the biggest mistake, and I can work on my actions in a logical manner to do things differently next time.
In DOA, if I lose, I often come to the conclusion that it's because at a particular time, I chose to pick paper instead of rock, and that lost me the round. Next time if I switch it up and pick rock, there's no guarantee that it will be the right choice. There is no real learning curve there, just anticipation and guessing.
It's a fighting game that's still based on looking flashy. That's ok, and it's not a problem if they wish to keep it like that since it has been a strength, but, it's not substance based. Look at one of the newest mechanics, the cliffhanger. What is it, other than a 50/50 guess to make you look cool if you choose right? It's great to look at, but functionally, it doesn't add much to the gameplay.
DOA is in a really bad spot. That the early DOA took so much from VF has turned out to be a problem. The guessing part is what differentiates DOA from other 3D fighting games and VF as of now. The holding is what actually drew me in in the first place, just like quite a few other people. It's until I got better at the game that I noticed the flaw in the stun & hold mechanics.
However.. Take the guesses away, and what do you have? Pretty much a less deep VF with interactive environments. It might make the game more consistent, but it loses its ability to differentiate itself from other fighting games, particularly VF. It really seems like a lose lose situation. If they keep things the same, people won't join because it's too random. If they change/remove the stun system it'll be more like a nicer looking 2nd rate VF. What incentive do Tekken and VF players have to join DOA in that case?
However, that doesn't mean they shouldn't try. I could be wrong on it ending up like a 2nd rate VF. If they do it right, it doesn't have to be that. But Team Ninja should clean up other stuff first. They can start by not releasing a buggy as hell game and not releasing patches that cause other problems.
Batcommander
Well-Known Member
um, i would totally take a second rate VF with top notch graphics and flashiness lol 
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
Sometimes you need to dumb something down a bit to reach a broader audience. Look at street fighter and KOF for a good comparison. That said I think DOA could have literally every single system mechanic that VF has, remove all of the holds in stun nonsense and still be considered the most "accessible" 3d fighter out there. All you really need to accomplish that is easy movement and easy inputs... DOA has that and VF system mechanics are not threatened by it. If a system mechanic is hidden underneath easy movement, nobody is going to feel threatened by it if they aren't aware of its existence. Those that are aware can appreciate it. And let's face it, in VF and Tekken you move around like a log when you first start out. That's what really pisses people off.
Heh, remember when we used to commando'ing over to DOAW, trying to tell you guys the true nature of DOA 4? And we kept getting told off? Not blaming you or anything, but its a vicious cycle and the primary reason its been difficult to get anything done in the past. You can't convince people in Team Ninja of a unanimous need for change in the game until everyone is convinced... and people who don't know any better will fight tooth and nail to reject what you tell them. As long as their is a great deal of conflicting feedback, nothing is going to change.
DOA's greatest enemy is the ignorance of its own players. I don't know how to fix that.
synce
Well-Known Member
um, i would totally take a second rate VF with top notch graphics and flashiness lol
DOA's boobage with VF's gameplay... I would kill for this.
Skilletor
Active Member
Testify! Amen.
Doug Nguyen
Well-Known Member
Well i dont know how you guys play but when i play DOA its not based off luck. My offense and defense are based off many things, including who im fighting (Player) , which character im fighting, adapting, common knowledge and much more. There are many ways around counters; highs, mid punch, mid kick, lows, grabs, delays, and unholdable stuns. Of course sometimes counters are based off luck but the offensive player is always in favor, same goes for the cliffhangers. Instead of taking away counters as a full, TN could just try the 6 point hold, or shorten the active frames on counters and extend the recovery. And i wouldnt call DOA players ignorant, its just a difference in opinions. But im not here to argue with anyone, because it seems everyone is set in their ways but thats just my opinion on DOA.
I was saying this before that I'd be totally ok with this. I agree with you that it wouldn't hurt the game if they did that.
Chaos
Well-Known Member
I don't think TN is consider changing the notation input holds in the future because it may turn off the casual audience but hey, you'll never know, it could work.
Omegan Eckhart
Well-Known Member
The problem with having a 6 point hold system is characters like Lei Fang already use 9F and 3F for parries and also use inputs like 46F for advanced holds.
They could make Lei Fangs advanced holds 4646F just to fuck with them lol.
Not with the "luck" thing again. Any game can be oversimplified to that. For example: In SF, I chose rock (QCF K) instead of scissors (block) I get hit. This oversimplification is absurd and does not accurately portray ANY fighting game I know of.
If psychologically you can't shake the feel that DOA is more guessing for some reason, I still don't see why you're still playing it. I wouldn't keep playing a game I felt didn't rely on player skill at all. And yet if I faced Master or Mr Wah or whoever, I think I'd get my butt kicked (I fight Rikuto once and lost about 5 or 6 times before beating him once). And no, it's not because they're "better at guessing every single time" than I am; it's because the game does reward player skill. If it didn't, I can't fathom why the same people would be winning each tournament. Guessing=random=unpredictable results. We typically see consistent results.
Anyway, I do think DOA could benefit from a 6-point hold system, and I also think low holds should use a standing animation.
If psychologically you can't shake the feel that DOA is more guessing for some reason, I still don't see why you're still playing it. I wouldn't keep playing a game I felt didn't rely on player skill at all. And yet if I faced Master or Mr Wah or whoever, I think I'd get my butt kicked (I fight Rikuto once and lost about 5 or 6 times before beating him once). And no, it's not because they're "better at guessing every single time" than I am; it's because the game does reward player skill. If it didn't, I can't fathom why the same people would be winning each tournament. Guessing=random=unpredictable results. We typically see consistent results.
Anyway, I do think DOA could benefit from a 6-point hold system, and I also think low holds should use a standing animation.
Doug Nguyen
Well-Known Member
Totally agree. This whole guessing/luck persona that many DOA players have embedded in others is self deprecating, and to me is incorrect.
Mind if I save this and drag it out whenever needed? Because it can't be emphasized enough.
It's funny that what in any other game would be called yomi becomes instantly called luck in DOA. It's just bizarre. If you had an eminently obvious action plan that beat out all others and it was a matter of execution of that strategy, DOA essentially becomes DDR-with-punches. The fact that it isn't makes it something of a strategy game. But you still have to be able to anticipate an opponent's strategy, and any strategy can essentially be wrong.
Plus, even within that, DOA has plenty of set up material that is essentially astrategic and essentially a matter of training and muscle memory. It doesn't have as much as some other games (and I think that's a great thing!), but it's definitely there.
synce
Well-Known Member
To the people saying every fighting game has guessing involved, do you play other fighting games seriously? In VF for example if someone starts hitting you, you don't get 3-4 chances to turn it around. When you make a mistake you're going in the air and losing a nice chunk of your lifebar. Landing a good juggle in that game feels so much more satisfying than DOA. There are very few DOA characters that can avoid the stun game and still do decent damage. Alpha was one of them pre-1.03 but TN made sure to "fix" that.
DR2K
Well-Known Member
You can do all that in a real fighting game to.
Skilletor
Active Member
Your analogy is flawed, because if you choose rock instead of scissors in SF, SC, VF, Tekken, Skullgirls, Mortal Kombat, Blazblue (burst permitting, but those can be baited), etc, etc. You are getting hurt. Your opponent has an opportunity to perform a combo on you without interruption or fear of taking damage.
In DoA, you get to try and choose Rock again. And again. and again.
Actually, basic theory would suggest it would make the game less random, not moreso, if the players had a reaction time. But that's not really what has the bearing in the more stratified results you'd see in other games.