DOA5U The Official Tier List with Discussion Thread

[Force_of_Nature]

The funiest thing about this thread is : if we sum up everybody's comments, 32 characters are in the top 10. Maths and DOA can't go along well.
Every character has a hidden card in his sleeve to climb up the ladder.

So to reverse the flow, who is the last character?
I start the vote on kokoro: she's not so safe, she can't deal with sidestep gods, she's too easier to master with poor damage. Real fighters play with zillion inputs like 16545678923 PK that's not the case for kokoro who can poorly mix up K and P with one or two directions at most.

Well that's kinda the point of the discussion lol. Everyone has multiple picks for Top 10.

As for Kokoro, she may get outclassed by quite a bit of the cast but she's nowhere near the bottom. She's too much of an offensive beast and kicks too much ass to be near the bottom. Also, if you want to see what unsafe is like try playing a ninja like Kasumi, Phase-4 or Ayane (which you did make a mention of).

Check out some of these matches for a bit of a visual. Don't count Kokoro out!

@UncleKitchener Bass is also nowhere near the bottom.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Bass' biggest flaw is that at start of match and some neutral game points he is at a distinct disadvantage. This includes "safe" moves where he's 0 to +3 after a successful guard.

Not saying it should put him into bottom tier, but just saying it's certainly something that keeps him out of the top since he can't really press advantage at neutral. For example, Ayane has his back to the wall and she could simply do a 50/50 low/throw mix-up with 2P since it's a i12 high crushing low that leaves her at 0 on hit and -4 on guard leaving Bass' only recourse to guess doing a 6K (i14) or guard low.

 

[Lulu]

Bass' biggest flaw is that at start of match and some neutral game points he is at a distinct disadvantage. This includes "safe" moves where he's 0 to +3 after a successful guard.

Not saying it should put him into bottom tier, but just saying it's certainly something that keeps him out of the top since he can't really press advantage at neutral.

I've always thought of Bass as DoA's version of Taka Arashi..... only without the Extreme Weight Advantage..... taking damage is unavoidable but he can get get huge damage off of fewer oppertunities and I think thats how he should be played, cautiously and patiently.... he will get his turn one way or another...... eventually....... maybe.

 

[Brute]

But that safeness was (and still is) my weakness, because when people talk about the strength of kokoro, safe is often quoted. Because of that i played all my moves without thinking about what's safe or not. for me kokoro is known to be safe so "throw all that strings". Even worse, people i usually meet assumes that kokoro is so safe that they never try to throw punish my moves.
As a result my strength become my weakness when i meet a real fighter who really knows kokoro.

Lots of players who actually have studied her frames find throw punishing her to be rather difficult for several reasons, even on her unsafe strings.

1) Several of her moves have low recovery frames. So while they may be unsafe, the blockstun is low, meaning you have to be quick on your toes to guarantee a throw punish (Hayate, Momiji and Gen share this trait).
2) Her animations aren't the most distinct aesthetically, and many players have difficulty discerning different strings and pokes apart from one another.
3) Online makes all of these more prominent, though it does with every character (duh).

Not an excuse or anything, just explaining the phenomenon as I interpret it.

Bass' biggest flaw is that at start of match and some neutral game points he is at a distinct disadvantage. This includes "safe" moves where he's 0 to +3 after a successful guard.

Not saying it should put him into bottom tier, but just saying it's certainly something that keeps him out of the top since he can't really press advantage at neutral. For example, Ayane has his back to the wall and she could simply do a 50/50 low/throw mix-up with 2P since it's a i12 high crushing low that leaves her at 0 on hit and -4 on guard leaving Bass' only recourse to guess doing a 6K (i14) or guard low.

Nyotengu says hello and absolutely adores Kokoro and Zack.

Ayane's 2P is actually quite a nuisance for anyone with an i13 mid, though. Having i14 or i15 just makes it funnier.

 

[UncleKitchener]

Nah, force of nature, I understand that Bass is actually good. It's just that general perception of a character ends up being "nah, this character can't do anything at neutral therefore he falls to the bottom lol pppp 4t".

I should've said that he can 'qualify' for being in that position.

Even at +2-3 Bass needs to guess hard for a intake situation for both characters when he's against most of the cast.

Him and Nyo Tengu end up with these situations a lot. That's why they have these guard breaks because the designers felt that these characters should be playing these guessing games since they felt they're strong (strength wise) and damaging characters and need something to balance them out (Wolf, King, Astaroth, etc).

 

[Tempest]

Lots of players who actually have studied her frames find throw punishing her to be rather difficult for several reasons, even on her unsafe strings.

1) Several of her moves have low recovery frames. So while they may be unsafe, the blockstun is low, meaning you have to be quick on your toes to guarantee a throw punish (Hayate, Momiji and Gen share this trait).
2) Her animations aren't the most distinct aesthetically, and many players have difficulty discerning different strings and pokes apart from one another.
3) Online makes all of these more prominent, though it does with every character (duh).

Not an excuse or anything, just explaining the phenomenon as I interpret it.

This is all correct. When fighting a good Kokoro, most of your throws are going to come from free cancel reads. A Kokoro with a good defense is a nightmare to punish, as she can neutral throw break and fuzzy guard after most of her strings, if the player even finishes them.

I think it's pretty funny that people will throw Kokoro under the tier list bus because of tracking. It's obviously a problem against characters like Christie and Hayate, but you are not going to get free wins against a good Kokoro player by pianoing the sidestep command. Leifang has terrible tracking and most sane people will put her somewhere in the top 5. I don't think she's top tier like some of the japanese players, but dropping her in with Elliot and Brad (who have much bigger problems then linearity in a game where re-tracking is so common) seems wrong to me.

 

[KING JAIMY]

Kasumi isn't top 5, imo. She has one huge weakness which is called unsafety. Almost literally everything she does is unsafe on block. It's so bad that it isn't even funny.

This would be my personal top 10 for now:

1. Christie
2. Gen Fu
3. Ayane
4. Helena
5. Akira
6. Leifang
7. Pai
8. Kasumi
9. Hayabusa
10. Rachel

 

[Lulu]

Kasumi isn't top 5, imo. She has one huge weakness which is called unsafety. Almost literally everything she does is unsafe on block. It's so bad that it isn't even funny.

Well thats not so Bad..... she still has her Guard Break and you can mix up her strings by alternating between completing them and not completing them just to trip up punishers, hell if you're lucky then you can hit confirm the Delayable ones.

 

[Matt Ponton]

I personally find Christie to be a safe Kasumi. My point being that Kasumi is fine being unsaf; Christie shouldn't be safe.

 

[Brute]

I personally find Christie to be a safe Kasumi. My point being that Kasumi is fine being unsaf; Christie shouldn't be safe.

Christie also doesn't have a mid parry that gives her free combos off of nearly anything.

PS: Anyone who puts Raidou lower than Ryu is an idiot.

 

[Tempest]

I personally find Christie to be a safe Kasumi. My point being that Kasumi is fine being unsaf; Christie shouldn't be safe.

Christie isn't safe at all though, both in her string enders and her free cancels (6PP is like -15).

Kasumi isn't top 5, imo. She has one huge weakness which is called unsafety. Almost literally everything she does is unsafe on block. It's so bad that it isn't even funny.

This would be my personal top 10 for now:

1. Christie
2. Gen Fu
3. Ayane
4. Helena
5. Akira
6. Leifang
7. Pai
8. Kasumi
9. Hayabusa
10. Rachel

I'd disagree with Helena being above Lei. This year I've watched two of the best dedicated Helena players switch to Leifang in the middle of a tournament. She's still strong but those damage nerfs hurt her a bit.

 

[KING JAIMY]

PS: Anyone who puts Raidou lower than Ryu is an idiot.

Guess I am an idiot, then.

Still don't know why you believe Ryu is so bad. Sure he has his limitations, but I wouldn't go as far as saying he's worse than Raidou.

 

[Jefffcore]

Ryu plays neutral better than raidou because he's faster. I'd say his crushes are better, too.

Raidou has better damage, better stuns, better spacing options, and better setups.

 

[Brute]

Guess I am an idiot, then.

Still don't know why you believe Ryu is so bad. Sure he has his limitations, but I wouldn't go as far as saying he's worse than Raidou.

Ryu advantages over Raidou:
i10 jab
Hold damage
Environment damage
Crushes

Raidou advantages over Ryu:
Damage
Mixups
Safety
Frame advantage
Spacing
OHs
Lows
Weight Class

Now, if for some reason you still disagree with the assertion that Raidou is stronger than Ryu, it would be for one of two reasons.

1. You think something I just stated is untrue (ie: Ryu's OHs are actually better than Raidou's). You'd be wrong, but whatever.
2. You believe the listed advantages for Ryu outweigh those of Raidou (ie: It's better to have higher hold/environment damage than a strong neutral game). If this were true, Leon would be considered a stronger character generally speaking than Christie, since his hold/environment damage easily outweighs hers. However, that's absurd, and no one makes that argument. This is because what makes characters strong in this game is having a threatening neutral.

As far as positing you "wouldn't go as far as saying he's worse than Raidou" goes, that's quite a silly statement, as Raidou is really fucking strong. So that's not saying anything inherently bad about Ryu aside from the fact that he's not as strong as an incredibly powerful character.

Ryu plays neutral better than raidou because he's faster. I'd say his crushes are better, too.

Raidou has better damage, better stuns, better spacing options, and better setups.

Actually, Raidou's neutral is far better than Ryu's, and Ryu's stuns are better than Raidou's.
Raidou has more useful frame advantage, more safety, better lows and more openers than Ryu in neutral, in addition to having useful OHs.
Ryu has three exploitable CH lift-stuns all on different hit-levels, and has a SDS that guarantees a CB. Raidou has one lift stun and numerous gut-stuns.

 

[Pictured Mind]

I'd disagree with Helena being above Lei. This year I've watched two of the best dedicated Helena players switch to Leifang in the middle of a tournament. She's still strong but those damage nerfs hurt her a bit.

I don't think they switched to Leifang because they think she is better, or tournament viable or whatever. If they did, might as well main Gen Fu and use Christie as back up, or the other way around.

I agree, the damage nerfs really hurt her. I still believe she's a solid top 5 character tho'. 4th place I guess.

 

[Brute]

I don't think they switched to Leifang because they think she is better, or tournament viable or whatever.

One definitely did.

 

[Pictured Mind]

Ryu plays neutral better than raidou because he's faster. I'd say his crushes are better, too.

Raidou has better damage, better stuns, better spacing options, and better setups.

Raidou has better spacing options than Ryu? Could you elaborate? Pretty curious.

One definitely did.

Hmm, interesting.

 

[Brute]

Raidou has better spacing options than Ryu? Could you elaborate? Pretty curious.

Both can cover distance quickly, but there's less stupid risks involved with Raidou as he's not crutching on a ridiculous stance every time he wants to play the spacing game. Raidou's hitboxes are more generous, he generally has more lurch in his strings (236P is a thing), and he can come at you in more ways (66K is a long-range low that's +on NH, which alone is enough to tip this in his favor). 214K is positive on block. 66P is a safe mid (better than Ryu's 66P and 666P moves). PP4PK is positive on guard (an attack he stole from Ryu while Ryu has since lost it). 33KP is neutral. 4k has great range and is totally safe. KK is also safe. EWGF is safe (Ryu's 8P is not). You get the idea.

 

[Lulu]

ELECTRIC WIND GOD FIST !!!!
okay so I'm not familiar with Tekken all that much..... why is EWGF such a big deal ? People mention this move with such high praise.

 

[Brute]

ELECTRIC WIND GOD FIST !!!!
okay so I'm not familiar with Tekken all that much..... why is EWGF such a big deal ? People mention this move with such high praise.

Fast. NH launch. Good damage. Safe on block. That's the gist.
Main point here is that it's better than Ryu's corresponding move (the corresponding move comparison bit is rather important when discussing Raidou vs Ryu because they have many similar attacks that function differently due to frames and the such).

Raidou can be played extremely efficiently without using the move at all, though. Most people don't realize that.