Low holds should not beat standing throws.

[DR2K]

No. See now you're one sided ass view on the situation is pissing me off.

So low holds do more. Well guess what, their best source of punishment IS worth more damage. If you can't live with that, then it's your own problem.

Once again. Fucking learn to adapt kid, and stop crying because it's not easy or you're just gunna be drowning yourself in your own misery when TN doesn't listen to you because you're being unreasonable and won't understand the words coming out of our fingers right now.

Low holds < Big Damage Hi Counter Low Throws. Game Over.

You're not punishing low holds, you're guessing that they happened or are happening. They do not get punished with more damage. Since the other holds are susceptible to everything, but what they hold.

Cool tell me to guess more. You're seeing the problem here buddy? You still haven't addressed why holds should tech crouch. Why can't high holds evade lows? If it did I'm sure you could all easily tap intol your Ms. Cleo ball and predict everything all the time on reaction.

Point is there tech crouching ability can be "punished" which is balancing out. Also the fact that it is punished different from standing holds. Your argument was you want low holds to be more "punishable" which is why it would mess up the balance because it is punished enough. Other post will tell you why to the adding that the other holds are also punishable which balance everything out. Or do you still not get it?

Being able to punish something, especially since it's prediction based, does not = balanced. If that's how balance worked then there would never be a need to patch or rebalance anything ever.

 

[Crystic]

The only thing I have a problem with is that I'm at disadvantage when I whiff a neutral grab on a low hold when the opponent is in stun. Such a situation should at least put both parties at neutral.

 

[Prince Adon]

Being able to punish something, especially since it's prediction based, does not = balanced. If that's how balance worked then there would never be a need to patch or rebalance anything ever.

There is a different between "predicting" and "knowing" everything is a prediction before you learn how a player plays. I use low holds to evade and I've played average players that catches on and punishes me for doing it there for forcing me to be more careful making it more of a "rare" method. If you see players doing it often it's a problem on your end and not with the hold. If you're "guessing" then stop guessing and be more "aware". Acting like everything is a guessing game would have been a more valid excuse if this was the older DOA games.

 

[Zeo]

Because being able to hi counter throw every single hold with a high damaging command throw would be more overpowered than you're supposedly saying low holding is? The point of holding would be moot and strings would be pointless as it's easy to stand throw a hold on reaction and a stun basically would = the win.

 

[Ooobe]

The only thing I have a problem with is that I'm at disadvantage when I whiff a neutral grab on a low hold when the opponent is in stun. Such a situation should at least put both parties at neutral.

This conversation is mind boggling.
Why are you trying to neutral grab someone in stun. All throws wiff against stun, don't they?> If you're trying to punish a critical hold then you might as well wait to see if it comes out and then punish appropriately, since that's already what you're planning on doing.
Also, doesn't that idea prove that low holds only do what low holds should do? <Apparently the desired state of the game>
1. They hold - you can also mid or high hold out of stun can't you? But yes why would anyone, unless they actually meant to counter something.
2. They are low. - meaning they go under highs and evade standing throws.
Might as well ask why ducking or blocking low should evade highs and standing thows at the same time - same balance issue, and blocking has no recovery frames.
-Just to point out I'm not saying holding out of stun is awesome or anything, I just don't see how any of the "pro" OP comments have made any sense outside of more frames for low recovery.
Yeah, let me see if I got this right: You're trying to throw someone in stun, and you're mad because you're standing throw is being evaded by a low, even though it would wiff if your opponent didn't DH out of stun?
I'm sure I'm missing something very important here, but I'm genuinely baffled. DR2K, if you're the Onslaught I'm thinking of, I've seen you around the community forever, so no disrespect and please don't think I'm trying to be a dick. Just someone please enlighten me.

 

[DR2K]

There is a different between "predicting" and "knowing"

No there isn't.

 

[TakedaZX]

You're not punishing low holds, you're guessing that they happened or are happening. They do not get punished with more damage. Since the other holds are susceptible to everything, but what they hold

/sigh/ you're hopeless. Punishing isn't tough to do. It realllyyy isn't as much of a guess as you make it out to be. There's a large difference in height between high/mid and low. Looking at where their head is should be enough to depict whether you T, or 2T on reaction. If you're too slow to react, your problem.

Cool tell me to guess more. You're seeing the problem here buddy? You still haven't addressed why holds should tech crouch. Why can't high holds evade lows? If it did I'm sure you could all easily tap intol(into) your Ms. Cleo ball and predict everything all the time on reaction.

I've never wanted to punch a kid in the throat until this day. Maybe it's the fact that it's really not about that. It's about the fact that you're absorbing the information were trying to give you before you go off on a limb and say that low dh's are broken and should be made easier to hold. Your fix is invalid, by far.

Low holds mean you need to get low. You're not going to grab someones leg while it's going low if you're standing up. You need to crouch to grab someone's leg from a low sweep, or someone's low punch, or someone's stomp kick. If you crouch, high attacks will miss. It's common sense. I didn't think I'd have to spell that out for you but you're just being way to incompetent to realize, it's the same element as a low crouch, except you're taking a chance on getting damage off of that crouch.

Crouch = High Crush

Low = High Crush

Low DH = Catching an attack Low = HIGH CRUSH

It's only common sense. It's common sense. It. Is. Common. Sense.

Being able to punish something, especially since it's prediction based, does not = balanced. If that's how balance worked then there would never be a need to patch or rebalance(re-balance)anything ever.

Another your problem. Everyone else has no problem with reacting off of a "huh", and looking at the height of the opponents head but you still seem to not be able to wrap your head around that.The factor here is you're too slow. You are holding yourself back. It's a prediction for YOU because you're not willing to work. You are the problem. Fix yourself before you try to break a game.

 

[Prince Adon]

No there isn't.

I meant Guessing and Knowing.

 

[DR2K]

1st poster says it's a guess and so does the 2nd one. I rest my case.

I've never wanted to punch a kid in the throat until this day. Maybe it's the fact that it's really not about that. It's about the fact that you're absorbing the information were trying to give you before you go off on a limb and say that low dh's are broken and should be made easier to hold. Your fix is invalid, by far.

Cute. Never said low defensive holds couldn't be beaten, not my arguement. I'm saying it shouldn't have the benefit of beating out highs or even standing throws.

Low holds mean you need to get low. You're not going to grab someones leg while it's going low if you're standing up. You need to crouch to grab someone's leg from a low sweep, or someone's low punch, or someone's stomp kick. If you crouch, high attacks will miss. It's common sense. I didn't think I'd have to spell that out for you but you're just being way to incompetent to realize, it's the same element as a low crouch, except you're taking a chance on getting damage off of that crouch.

I think characters should die a bone crushing death when falling off ledges, but it makes no sense gameplay wise. Lets not use "common sense" to balance gameplay.

 

[Django]

Being able to punish something, especially since it's prediction based, does not = balanced.

Then that mean the whole Holding System is broken to begin with, since am predicting your next attack with a hold to punish it.

 

[DR2K]

Then that mean the whole Holding System is broken to begin with, since am "predicting" your next attack with a hold to punish it.

Not balanced =/= broken.

 

[TakedaZX]

Not balanced =/= broken.

-.- But that's the thing... it ain't broke. You're just mad cause it's not the easiest thing ever.

Cute. Never said low defensive holds couldn't be beaten, not my arguement(for the last time, a-r-g-u-m-e-n-t). I'm saying it shouldn't have the benefit of beating out highs or even standing throws.

It's called depth to the game man. Standing throws beat standing guards and holds. Low throws beat Low holds. Standing holds stand. Low Holds Crouch, to catch low moves. Once again. Common Sense.

Frankly the problem your facing would only be a problem out of a stun... which you really shouldn't be trying to grab someone who's in a stun. They could just as easily shake it before the grab impact frames and i don't care if it's the frame right before your grabs impact, they will beat it out if they attack anyway. Low holds will continue to balanced. The will continue to be a great element to the game. To top that off 2T, is 5 frames. You will connect that one on reaction. -.-

I think characters should die a bone crushing death when falling off ledges, but it makes no sense gameplay wise. Lets not use "common sense" to balance gameplay.

Well that'd make for a pretty lame game now wouldn't it. One knock off of a area and you're dead. Great thinking man. They do it for depth and variety. You want a game where you have two standing parries for high and low, go play sc4. It's common sense there because they have WEAPONS so that they can reach. Even then if I remember correctly the low one still tech crouches. but I haven't played that since SCV came out.

We will use an element of common sense here. No matter how you wanna move around everything we say, it's going to be the same answer. Depth built from the common sense of parrying someone. If you're going to catch a low strike, you will get a lower center of gravity and height to catch that move. In response that is a tech crouch. regular crouching... is a crouch. They are the same. Both are vulnerable to mids. Tech crouching is even less safe because if you get low thrown, you're taking a large amount of damage, which balances it. You should have a reason to low throw a bit more in this game, and a bigger reward for it, since regular ducking isn't common since mids become dominant later in combos.

You getting where I'm going with this? The shit makes sense. That's why it has more options. Because the shit makes sense. Because it's got one more ability, it's more dangerous. Got it? Hope so because if you realllllyy can't get a grasp on this, you've got problems. There's nothing about guessing in here. It's all about reality, which you can't seem to wrap your head around.

 

[Crystic]

This conversation is mind boggling.
Why are you trying to neutral grab someone in stun.

I hit my opponent with a high attack string. I assume my opponent will either hold high or mid, considering my string consists of only that, so I go for a grab on his hold. He however went for a low hold so I whiff my grab. It is at this point that he hits me before I can put my guard up, which bothers me as I thought both parties would be at neutral, seeing as how I had advantage and was partially right in that he would hold, and he was partially right for doing a low hold to avoid my grab. I do not think the momentum should shift into his favor because he was partially right. He gets his reward by not being in stun anymore. Which is why low holds should have more recovery.

 

[TakedaZX]

I hit my opponent with a high attack string. I assume my opponent will either hold high or mid, considering my string consists of only that, so I go for a grab on his hold. He however went for a low hold so I whiff my grab. It is at this point that he hits me before I can put my guard up, which bothers me as I thought both parties would be at neutral, seeing as how I had advantage and was partially right in that he would hold, and he was partially right for doing a low hold to avoid my grab. I do not think the momentum should shift into his favor because he was partially right. He gets his reward by not being in stun anymore. Which is why low holds should have more recovery.

This makes sense. It made sense when it was brought up in the first place, but giving a person the ability to punish someone with a standing throw when they're doing a low hold is ridiculous.

 

[Prince Adon]

I hit my opponent with a high attack string. I assume my opponent will either hold high or mid, considering my string consists of only that, so I go for a grab on his hold. He however went for a low hold so I whiff my grab. It is at this point that he hits me before I can put my guard up, which bothers me as I thought both parties would be at neutral, seeing as how I had advantage and was partially right in that he would hold, and he was partially right for doing a low hold to avoid my grab. I do not think the momentum should shift into his favor because he was partially right. He gets his reward by not being in stun anymore. Which is why low holds should have more recovery.

Even so it seem more like you were guessing, you shouldn't have to "depend" on whiff, if you expect your opponent is going to hold you could have waited to see which hold since you always know low hold is an option. But I know what you're getting at just saying low hold is well balanced plain and simple. The offender reward is much greater.

 

[ScattereDreams]

What DOA5 needed.. EX ATTACKS FROM VIRTUA FIGHTER
-Ex high attacks; high attack attributes, can be dodged by ducking, but if the opponent attempted to do any low attacks, the EX high would act as a mid and counterhit the low.

Would work wonders against random low holds.

 

[DR2K]

Even though I just read Imbalanced=/= broke I'm still going to use the word broke. Maybe that will make my point valid!

Common Sense!

Guess more!

More common sense crap.

More common sense crap.

You getting where I'm going with this? The shit makes sense. That's why it has more options. Because the shit makes sense. Because it's got one more ability, it's more dangerous. Got it? Hope so because if you realllllyy can't get a grasp on this, you've got problems. There's nothing about guessing in here. It's all about reality, which you can't seem to wrap your head around.

I paraphrased your bloated and verbose argument.

It doesn't make sense for a low hold to do more than the other holds when it doesn't have more disadvantages. This is how balance works. It's just another stupid relic Team Ninja left unchecked in order to punish the offender for offense.

There's tons of ways to fix it and put it on par with the other defensive holds, but since you can guess your way out of it sometimes it shouldn't be an issue. DOA4 would be so proud.

 

[Prince Adon]

Stop guessing, son. XD

 

[blackgenma]

how do e

What DOA5 needed.. EX ATTACKS FROM VIRTUA FIGHTER
-Ex high attacks; high attack attributes, can be dodged by ducking, but if the opponent attempted to do any low attacks, the EX high would act as a mid and counterhit the low.

Would work wonders against random low holds.

how do ex low attacks work in VF? all I know is that you can block them standing, so I call them "fake" low attacks.

on DR2K's point, from a game design perspective, I agree with him completely. while there are exceptions to the rule in most fighting games, low holds subvert the triangle system too easily. for example, there are methods to defend against most manners of attack at once in virtua fighter (that crouch dash guard option select thing), or ways to defend against a full circle attacks after sidestepping them (I'm not certain of the effectiveness of this though). these exceptions in VF are limited by execution requirements though, they are not easy to do, and require precise timing (so I don't use them). I think limiting mechanics through execution is lame, but they can serve their purpose.

with low holds, its doubly bad because they are extremely easy to pull off and they force the attacking player to guess even more when he knocks the opponent in critical stun, which I find to happen quite frequently. low holds work against high and low strikes, as well as standing throws, when throws are supposed to beat holds in the triangle system. too much guessing involved for the attacker is a bad thing.

I think its important to distinguish this discussion as a commentary on the game's design rather than what's actually in the game. many people have already stated that there are ways to bait and beat low counters, but that's not the point of the discussion, its whether the mechanic should work the way it does.

 

[Ooobe]

Thank you, it does make more sense now.
As I read over my reply I think I'm starting to see what's being said. As the attacker, your options are being limited by how effective the low hold is. But limited options are required to bring yomi into play. I think the scenario comes down to second guessing yourself.
IF your opponent consistently low holds out of stun and you low throw in anticipation, but this time they go for the actual counter (high or mid), will you want low throw to beat standing holds? Again, if they don't hold, you wiff anyway.
Personally on defense I prefer SE and block, less chance to miss and if I get thrown at least it's not HC.
I agree about the recovery of the hold being slightly too fast, but the defender outguessed the attacker in your scenario, (because it had to be a guess for the scenario to work out as described) so I don't have a problem with the mechanic in general.