shunwong
Active Member
Free-cancel and hi-counter throw punish.
Why should I waste my hard earnt frame advantage waiting to see if my opponent holds or not? The mechanic (holds in stun) is bad. The arguments used to defend it are bad too.
Free-cancel and hi-counter throw punish.
Yeah I understand stand that but I feel that good players are able to play mind games and condition their opponent to their benefit. I think people here are acting a bit dramatic and making doa seem like a luck based fighting game over the holds.Well if only five people are playing, of course you're only going to see the same five names over and over...
The hold itself isn't the issue, the hold's implementation is. Taking your rock-paper-scissors analogy, the way the hold is implemented right now is like playing rock-paper-scissors with someone that goes "Do over!" every time they lose until the one time they win. That's what the stun/hold guessing game in the latest DOAs has been like.
It is a luck based fighting game...Yeah I understand stand that but I feel that good players are able to play mind games and condition their opponent to their benefit. I think people here are acting a bit dramatic and making doa seem like a luck based fighting game over the holds.
It is a luck based fighting game...
If I play something like VF5FS and I lose, I know exactly where I made the biggest mistake, and I can work on my actions in a logical manner to do things differently next time.
In DOA, if I lose, I often come to the conclusion that it's because at a particular time, I chose to pick paper instead of rock, and that lost me the round. Next time if I switch it up and pick rock, there's no guarantee that it will be the right choice. There is no real learning curve there, just anticipation and guessing.
It's a fighting game that's still based on looking flashy. That's ok, and it's not a problem if they wish to keep it like that since it has been a strength, but, it's not substance based. Look at one of the newest mechanics, the cliffhanger. What is it, other than a 50/50 guess to make you look cool if you choose right? It's great to look at, but functionally, it doesn't add much to the gameplay.
DOA is in a really bad spot. That the early DOA took so much from VF has turned out to be a problem. The guessing part is what differentiates DOA from other 3D fighting games and VF as of now. The holding is what actually drew me in in the first place, just like quite a few other people. It's until I got better at the game that I noticed the flaw in the stun & hold mechanics.
However.. Take the guesses away, and what do you have? Pretty much a less deep VF with interactive environments. It might make the game more consistent, but it loses its ability to differentiate itself from other fighting games, particularly VF. It really seems like a lose lose situation. If they keep things the same, people won't join because it's too random. If they change/remove the stun system it'll be more like a nicer looking 2nd rate VF. What incentive do Tekken and VF players have to join DOA in that case?
However, that doesn't mean they shouldn't try. I could be wrong on it ending up like a 2nd rate VF. If they do it right, it doesn't have to be that. But Team Ninja should clean up other stuff first. They can start by not releasing a buggy as hell game and not releasing patches that cause other problems.
um, i would totally take a second rate VF with top notch graphics and flashiness lol
DOA's greatest enemy is the ignorance of its own players. I don't know how to fix that.
I was saying this before that I'd be totally ok with this. I agree with you that it wouldn't hurt the game if they did that.TN could just try the 6 point hold, or shorten the active frames on counters and extend the recovery.
I don't think TN is consider changing the notation input holds in the future because it may turn off the casual audience but hey, you'll never know, it could work.I was saying this before that I'd be totally ok with this. I agree with you that it wouldn't hurt the game if they did that.
The problem with having a 6 point hold system is characters like Lei Fang already use 9F and 3F for parries and also use inputs like 46F for advanced holds.I don't think TN is consider changing the notation input holds in the future because it may turn off the casual audience but hey, you'll never know, it could work.
Totally agree. This whole guessing/luck persona that many DOA players have embedded in others is self deprecating, and to me is incorrect.Not with the "luck" thing again. Any game can be oversimplified to that. For example: In SF, I chose rock (QCF K) instead of scissors (block) I get hit. This oversimplification is absurd and does not accurately portray ANY fighting game I know of.
If psychologically you can't shake the feel that DOA is more guessing for some reason, I still don't see why you're still playing it. I wouldn't keep playing a game I felt didn't rely on player skill at all. And yet if I faced Master or Mr Wah or whoever, I think I'd get my butt kicked (I fight Rikuto once and lost about 5 or 6 times before beating him once). And no, it's not because they're "better at guessing every single time" than I am; it's because the game does reward player skill. If it didn't, I can't fathom why the same people would be winning each tournament. Guessing=random=unpredictable results. We typically see consistent results.
Anyway, I do think DOA could benefit from a 6-point hold system, and I also think low holds should use a standing animation.
Mind if I save this and drag it out whenever needed? Because it can't be emphasized enough.Not with the "luck" thing again. Any game can be oversimplified to that. For example: In SF, I chose rock (QCF K) instead of scissors (block) I get hit. This oversimplification is absurd and does not accurately portray ANY fighting game I know of.
If psychologically you can't shake the feel that DOA is more guessing for some reason, I still don't see why you're still playing it. I wouldn't keep playing a game I felt didn't rely on player skill at all. And yet if I faced Master or Mr Wah or whoever, I think I'd get my butt kicked (I fight Rikuto once and lost about 5 or 6 times before beating him once). And no, it's not because they're "better at guessing every single time" than I am; it's because the game does reward player skill. If it didn't, I can't fathom why the same people would be winning each tournament. Guessing=random=unpredictable results. We typically see consistent results.
Anyway, I do think DOA could benefit from a 6-point hold system, and I also think low holds should use a standing animation.
I agree with Brute, in addition the guessing is not just involved in intercepting the adversary's moves, but also to put him in the conditions to do the moves that you want.
Not with the "luck" thing again. Any game can be oversimplified to that. For example: In SF, I chose rock (QCF K) instead of scissors (block) I get hit. This oversimplification is absurd and does not accurately portray ANY fighting game I know of.
If psychologically you can't shake the feel that DOA is more guessing for some reason, I still don't see why you're still playing it. I wouldn't keep playing a game I felt didn't rely on player skill at all. And yet if I faced Master or Mr Wah or whoever, I think I'd get my butt kicked (I fight Rikuto once and lost about 5 or 6 times before beating him once). And no, it's not because they're "better at guessing every single time" than I am; it's because the game does reward player skill. If it didn't, I can't fathom why the same people would be winning each tournament. Guessing=random=unpredictable results. We typically see consistent results.
Anyway, I do think DOA could benefit from a 6-point hold system, and I also think low holds should use a standing animation.
Actually, basic theory would suggest it would make the game less random, not moreso, if the players had a reaction time. But that's not really what has the bearing in the more stratified results you'd see in other games.Your analogy is flawed, because if you choose rock instead of scissors in SF, SC, VF, Tekken, Skullgirls, Mortal Kombat, Blazblue (burst permitting, but those can be baited), etc, etc. You are getting hurt. Your opponent has an opportunity to perform a combo on you without interruption or fear of taking damage.
In DoA, you get to try and choose Rock again. And again. and again.