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[Awesmic]

OSTCarmine - for some reason - reminds me of someone else...

Anyway, I keep seeing six-point holds pop up frequently from Rikuto and Grape in particular, so I'm curious, how would the six-point hold system work generally for all characters in DOA5 to a point where it doesn't feel redundantly complex, yet admirable?

 

[Rikuto]

it's not complex at all, really.

From neutral, being able to tell the difference between whether or not a high punch is coming or a high kick is coming just signifies you are actually paying attention to whats being abused on you, thusly you should be rewarded for calling your opponent out on it.

Being unsure of what is coming from neutral, you can instead choose to parry which can cover both high punches AND kicks. It effectively doubles the chance of you being correct, and actually DOES allow you to guess to an extent, but with a much lower payout since all you did was indeed guess. This is used more as an actual defensive tool to halt your opponent than an offensive "I know what you're going to do and I'm going to call you out on it" tool.

From stun, you should have at least one set of these options stripped from you since you allowed yourself to be put in that situation. This gives the attacker more momentum and chance to succeed.

 

[OSTCarmine]

Good players spam that shit too. Ya know, like doing a hold, then throwing out a low hold before you can even react to the first hold, and then they recover before you and ya..you get the idea. This is why I want TN to seed feedback on other suggestions that I have been mentioning.

That particular problem is easily fixed though, AND you have mentioned this numerous times before. They need to adjust active and recovery frames in favour of the smart player, not the spammer. Also, the repercussions for mistimed Holds should ENSURE that a bad player gets the appropriate punishment for their mistake. You mention something else in that post that I find very intriguing - Using Holds as bait by recovering fast from one hold, then switching to another direction Hold to bait a throw. This is a strategy, albeit reliant on bad mechanics. Baiting a particular reaction, so you can counter it with something else in the Triangle system is the bread and butter of every player that has transcended the levels of nooby button masher or the spammer. I hope that the next DOA manages to bring about more of these strats, cuz this one will most likely be nerfed if the fix the Holds

 

[OSTCarmine]

it's not complex at all, really.

From neutral, being able to tell the difference between whether or not a high punch is coming or a high kick is coming just signifies you are actually paying attention to whats being abused on you, thusly you should be rewarded for calling your opponent out on it.

Being unsure of what is coming from neutral, you can instead choose to parry which can cover both high punches AND kicks. It effectively doubles the chance of you being correct, and actually DOES allow you to guess to an extent, but with a much lower payout since all you did was indeed guess. This is used more as an actual defensive tool to halt your opponent than an offensive "I know what you're going to do and I'm going to call you out on it" tool.

From stun, you should have at least one set of these options stripped from you since you allowed yourself to be put in that situation. This gives the attacker more momentum and chance to succeed.

now THAT, I like
lol, Raansu is gonna be mad about this but watevs, PARRY FTW!
Which option should they strip during stun? The more complex one or the one with less payout? Also, how do you suppose they do the button layout for this. I like this system, but its gonna be quite an adjustment to anybody who have grown accustomed to the gameplay in the last couple of years. Another Idea that was floating around on the forum [cant remember where i saw it] was to allow a hold only on perfect timing, and a parry within any other stage of the active frames. IDK if this would cause more problems than it solves, just thought it worth a mention here

 

[Raansu]

That particular problem is easily fixed though, AND you have mentioned this numerous times before. They need to adjust active and recovery frames in favour of the smart player, not the spammer. Also, the repercussions for mistimed Holds should ENSURE that a bad player gets the appropriate punishment for their mistake. You mention something else in that post that I find very intriguing - Using Holds as bait by recovering fast from one hold, then switching to another direction Hold to bait a throw. This is a strategy, albeit reliant on bad mechanics. Baiting a particular reaction, so you can counter it with something else in the Triangle system is the bread and butter of every player that has transcended the levels of nooby button masher or the spammer. I hope that the next DOA manages to bring about more of these strats, cuz this one will most likely be nerfed if the fix the Holds

You are not seeing the problem with this situation. Holds are a defensive option that immediately take you out of stun. That kind of tool should have some huge risks. Pulling yourself out of stun and getting into a low hold in that situation and being able to recover first defeats the whole purpose of that tool and skews with the balance of the stun. This has been an issue since doa2, and I really hope they fix it.


I really hope it doesn't. Baiting is fine, and theres plenty of situations in the game already that use baiting and I'm perfectly fine with that as I rely on whiff punishment a lot with Hitomi. But this game really needs more solid tools that give real advantages to the player, not more 50/50 mind game situations.

 

[Raansu]

now THAT, I like
lol, Raansu is gonna be mad about this but watevs, PARRY FTW!
Which option should they strip during stun? The more complex one or the one with less payout? Also, how do you suppose they do the button layout for this. I like this system, but its gonna be quite an adjustment to anybody who have grown accustomed to the gameplay in the last couple of years. Another Idea that was floating around on the forum [cant remember where i saw it] was to allow a hold only on perfect timing, and a parry within any other stage of the active frames. IDK if this would cause more problems than it solves, just thought it worth a mention here

I've never had a problem with Rikuto's suggestion on the hold/parry. He's been mentioning it for a long time now. I just personally don't think its necessary, and it takes away the uniqueness it gives to certain characters, something doa4 lacks badly. I'd be fine with Rikuto's setup, I'd just prefer they didn't make even more universal tools in this game.

And why would I be mad? We are talking about actual mechanics in the game that could be beneficial and improve the game, unlike another thread talking about a useless feature that only distracts development from working on making the core mechanics solid. Just because I disagree doesn't mean I'm going to be mad. I enjoy these theory discussions.

 

[OSTCarmine]

lol i was just kidding dude, and to be perfectly honest - I like the idea of only certain people having certain move-types to suit their particular style. What i generally DONT like is the abundance of Defensive holds available to every other character. The frame and advantage adjustment should do a lot to fix this issue for me, but it still wont be perfect imo. Still, if they opt to not make Parries universal, I would still like them to pay some attention to the Parries already implemented in the game, as far as i can tell its :Genfu: and Elliot [whose emoticon I cant see]. teleport is psuedo Parry [i guess...?]. What I also liked were those low-damage counters like which knocked the opponent into the air for a free combo. They should implement these types of holds better. Holds that can guarantee at least 1 direct hit of multiple height after its completion. That way, the opponent still has a chance to counter, but the player has a choice of where to strike. A great example of this is

 

[Berzerk!]

Countering out of stun does have risk - if you do it incorrectly you are open for further stun/high counter throw.

The problem is the recovery is so forgiving that even wrong guesses can bring you back to neutral, and mitigate the disadvantage you were in at least somewhat.

The actual situation is ok, but the balancing of the risk/reward within it needs a tweak.

 

[Raansu]

lol i was just kidding dude, and to be perfectly honest - I like the idea of only certain people having certain move-types to suit their particular style. What i generally DONT like is the abundance of Defensive holds available to every other character. The frame and advantage adjustment should do a lot to fix this issue for me, but it still wont be perfect imo. Still, if they opt to not make Parries universal, I would still like them to pay some attention to the Parries already implemented in the game, as far as i can tell its :Genfu: and Elliot [whose emoticon I cant see]. teleport is psuedo Parry [i guess...?]. What I also liked were those low-damage counters like which knocked the opponent into the air for a free combo. They should implement these types of holds better. Holds that can guarantee at least 1 direct hit of multiple height after its completion. That way, the opponent still has a chance to counter, but the player has a choice of where to strike. A great example of this is

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this. You don't like it being a universal tool? Or you don't like having multiple hit levels?

 

[Matt Ponton]

I brought this up on Twitter. The core issue that fucked up the triangle system in DOA4 was them slowing down throw speeds, and I had this discussion with the ex-marketing manager of Tecmo yesterday at lunch.

Shimbori said himself that he wanted to fix the complaint they were receiving where the game was nothing but block punishing attacks with throws. Remember that. It's an important reason.

So what does he do? He doesn't do like they did in DOA3.1 or DOA3.2, where the decreased the amount of disadvantage on attacks to make it more difficult to throw punish. That would make more sense, as the core issue is the DISADVANTAGE OF ATTACKS ARE TOO MUCH. However, instead Shimbori figures that the issue is that throws are too fast. So he slows down the throws. Which is technically a solution to the see-saw of a problem. If this was a two-point system it would be acceptable as you could raise one while lowering the other to balance it out. However, this is a 3-point triangle system where the holds were kept in check by the fast throw speeds. The faster throw speeds were god-fearing in the eyes of players who wanted to risk holding.

That one change made it nigh impossible to throw punish holds in DOA4 and further made it more common to have to guess that a hold would appear at any point in the 65 frame stuns or critical states.

That's honestly my biggest issue with the tweaks that DOA4 did to make the game go askew. Raansu was there when I told this to Shimbori and he looked shocked that he didn't realize it. I just hope he got the message loud and clear, or that I'm given a chance to further explain it to him outside a long list of questions and feedback.

 

[grap3fruitman]

I think you may want to double-check the wording on your tweet. It doesn't sound like you're making a negative statement about throw speeds.

 

[OSTCarmine]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this. You don't like it being a universal tool? Or you don't like having multiple hit levels?

My point with that post was just to bring up the fact that the button has a lot of potential. Also, defensive Holds as a whole has a lot of potential still. It does not simply need to be about the damage. I dont want them to make more universal tools in this sense. I just want them to start focusing on other aspects of the button that can be unique to different characters. Like I said in that post, these functions are already in place to some degree, I just want to see some development in these areas

 

[Raansu]

Potential for what? It's a block button, it's a free cancel button, it's a defensive hold button. The button is used for 3 major core tools of the game. What else do you want one button to possibly do? It does more than enough already.

 

[Rikuto]

It's used for throws, offensive holds, and special attacks, too

 

[Raansu]

It's used for throws, offensive holds, and special attacks, too

I press A for throws and OH, but yes technically you are right =P.

 

[Berzerk!]

When people start playing on stick after the fix the input looseness/glitches, you realise it's a true 3-button game

Mr Wah: Great post on throw speeds. It's important to remember tweaking any aspect of the system likely means 2, 3 or more other things need to be looked at to go with it.

So when adjusting active frames and recovery of holds, they may not need to go so far with it if they also increase the speed of (certain) throws.

 

[OSTCarmine]

lol I never seem to get through to you dudes. Im going to put this as clearly as I can. I want expansion in the various aspects of the button. More Parries, more unique Holds with effects other than doing damage. Did you get that? I dont want them to add new functions to the , just go a bit more in-depth on what is already there

 

[Raansu]

lol I never seem to get through to you dudes. Im going to put this as clearly as I can. I want expansion in the various aspects of the button. More Parries, more unique Holds with effects other than doing damage. Did you get that? I dont want them to add new functions to the , just go a bit more in-depth on what is already there

Ok, I get it now. You want more depth of a tool and how its used in the game, but you kept referring to the inputs, which was sounding strange. It's an input, only so much depth you can get out of an input lol.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Make it the WIN Button!

Oh, wait, it already is.

 

[Rikuto]

DOA 3 had the most depth per input.

Especially if you turned analog off.


Har.... Har.... Haaaaaaar....