Concerning Juggles

[Nameless Sama]

Dead or Alive is the one fighting game which is really fair. You can escape , you can protect yourself etc. MK or Street Fighter you only spam projectile lol. I have seen in MK9 the Tag Combos with scorpion and Subzero. That is more unblaanced than in 5U. 200% with one full combo. MK has more badass character and their focus is more on male character instead TN females , which I really prefer. What I like by Mortal Kombat is there are less DLC. I dont know but I think I paid for Dead or alive 5 and 5U more than 300$. That is insane. I fear that TN goes the same way like Capcom with making from the same game multi Version. ULTRA SUPER ALPHA DEAD OR ALIVE 5 ULTIMATE ARCADE Edition.

 

[Rapham0n]

Dead or Alive is the one fighting game which is really fair. You can escape , you can protect yourself etc. MK or Street Fighter you only spam projectile lol. I have seen in MK9 the Tag Combos with scorpion and Subzero. That is more unblaanced than in 5U. 200% with one full combo. MK has more badass character and their focus is more on male character instead TN females , which I really prefer. What I like by Mortal Kombat is there are less DLC. I dont know but I think I paid for Dead or alive 5 and 5U more than 300$. That is insane. I fear that TN goes the same way like Capcom with making from the same game multi Version. ULTRA SUPER ALPHA DEAD OR ALIVE 5 ULTIMATE ARCADE Edition.

MK10 would be cool. Sub Zero FTW.

You forgot to mention Tekken. The ultimate in repetitive gaming. All you do is launch -> juggle, juggle, juggle. Launch -> juggle, juggle, juggle. Rinse & repeat. And then you get juggles that take off over 95% of your life bar. They seriously need to change the gameplay in Tekken if it's going to make it into the next-gen of gaming.

 

[Argentus]

You forgot to mention Tekken. The ultimate in repetitive gaming. All you do is launch -> juggle, juggle, juggle. Launch -> juggle, juggle, juggle. Rinse & repeat. And then you get juggles that take off over 95% of your life bar. They seriously need to change the gameplay in Tekken if it's going to make it into the next-gen of gaming.

That whole "launch>juggle juggle juggle" repetition is sadly what the fgc likes. Its never about who can beat who, its almost always about who can do the longest juggles.
That's why games like marvel and tekken are so big.

 

[Gurimmjaw]

Every fighting game uses juggles except SF but nothing wrong with it. A game like DoA uses juggles and of course the stun system comes in play as well. MK also uses juggles. It where your combos comes from.

If someone gets launched it their fault.

 

[Argentus]

Every fighting game uses juggles except SF but nothing wrong with it. A game like DoA uses juggles and of course the stun system comes in play as well. MK also uses juggles. It where your combos comes from.

If someone gets launched it their fault.

Yeah that kinda mindset right there is the issue lol. That's why you see people just spending entire matches trying to setup launchers for juggle damage instead of learning how to fight and deal actual damage.

Leads people to over reliance on setups and guaranteed damage which leads to a LOT of bad habits...


But this is a discussion for another time...

 

[Gurimmjaw]

Launchers and juggles are what deal damage. Just cause someone does them does not mean they arent learning how to fight. All fighting games are like this lol. If they get caught into them it their own fault. Simple as that.

Having good spacing, footsies, and execution is "learning how to fight"
But im not trying to go off topic here.

 

[J.D.E.]

I wouldn't consider this off topic personally. I welcome it. It's just fighting game knowledge that you have to know in any fighting game out there especially if you want to compete in an event. Which pertains to MK (& all other fighting games). Most of the time, like DOA, MK, SF, VF, KI, INJ & more fighting games that I know of, if you're using something very unsafe to put you at a disadvantage, you're getting punished with a juggle or a combo. Then of course some games you're being throw punished.

In MK, INJ, KI, & SF , you're being launched or punished by air to airs, anti-airs, jumping attacks, jump-in & out attacks that leads to juggles, or using something unsafe like Mileena's ball roll which launches. If she scores a hit, she's getting big juggle damage & often punishes a few projectiles/moves. If blocked, she's being punished hard for it. Whereas she has her FF+4 (Flying drop kick, 42+telekick) punishes ground projectiles but punishable with anti-airs on block while her jumping BF+2 (dagger throw in the air with or jump punch + sai dagger throw *JP+BF+Sai throw*) is an air-to-air punish that leads to a juggle. Just the pros & cons of using her specials. Risk vs Reward scenarios. All fighting games have them. The "klassic" fighting games do too actually. Just have be creative & know what to look for.

Mileena is a "kharacter" that has to take risk, but actually does well despite of that like Kasumi has to in DOA, regardless of how unsafe she is on block, she still has a great all-around game & has a lot of things that you would look for in a character such as a nice neutral game. It's just how those games work. Games may not function correctly without juggles imo with these types in this generation.

In some cases in DOA, you're punished with launchers. One example that I can give is Kasumi's 4PK & 6P6K launchers punish things like Hitomi's 4H+K, Rachel's 4H+K, Brad Wong's uppercut launcher that leaves him in BT, Kokoro's 7K, & Lei Fang's 33P+K. Well all of them leave them punishable on BT. Both lead to a juggle.

The concept of juggling or linking combos in fighters are to reward you damage of any aspect. Whether it's whiff punishing, guessing wrong or right in 50/50 situations, punishing moves that are unsafe, punishing players for attacking from disadvantage, playing good defense blocking out that leads to punishment, or playing good offense with good offensive tactics (including mixups, okizeme, meaties, & using guaranteed setups/damage), that's the sole purpose. If you take the juggles away from today's fighters, it would defeat the purpose along with taking away one of the basic & most important things of the FG's. That's why it's important to have juggles.

So if you're constantly getting juggled, then either you're being blown up for whiffed attacks, being unsafe, or not understanding what's going on for you to get caught in them. Either way, you would have to be doing something risky in order for that to happen.

Also, that Ermac concept art believe it or not was made by someone at NRS. His chances of getting in slightly increased. So right now I would say 50/50 or maybe a little higher.

 

[Tenryuga]

^ The two posts above me come from wise men. Also anybody that says Tekken is launch > juggle obviously has not seen high level play where advanced movement and ability to punish your opponent is critical to success. NEVER judge a game based on low level to intermediate level play as that is not an accurate presentation off it.

I could call DOA a game that saves scrubs asses by allowing them holds to cover for their mistakes and a button masher because that is exactly what it is at a low level. Obviously this is far from true at the highest level of play.

Regarding MK is there any info out on Sub Zero or Scorpions "variations"? If smoke and reptile aren't gonna make it I was gonna try one of those guys.

 

[Argentus]

Launchers and juggles are what deal damage. Just cause someone does them does not mean they arent learning how to fight. All fighting games are like this lol. If they get caught into them it their own fault. Simple as that.

Having good spacing, footsies, and execution is "learning how to fight"
But im not trying to go off topic here.

No. Hits are what deal damage. Launchers and juggles are just easy free damage.

Aka, you don't need juggles to deal damage, but it is the easiest way so its what people strive for.

^ The two posts above me come from wise men. Also anybody that says Tekken is launch > juggle obviously has not seen high level play where advanced movement and ability to punish your opponent is critical to success. NEVER judge a game based on low level to intermediate level play as that is not an accurate presentation off it.

I could call DOA a game that saves scrubs asses by allowing them holds to cover for their mistakes and a button masher because that is exactly what it is at a low level. Obviously this is far from true at the highest level of play.

Regarding MK is there any info out on Sub Zero or Scorpions "variations"? If smoke and reptile aren't gonna make it I was gonna try one of those guys.

Punishing is one thing. I'm talking about how j see most people rushing in trying to spam launchers.

Part of why I love DOA is that the hold system filters out a lot of scrubs who try to just slam their best combos lol.

Mk9 I achieved the same effect with Sheevas armorgrapples and unblockables to punish people trying constantly set up their super long combos.

Part of why I'm hoping Sheeva returns

 

[Gurimmjaw]

Juggles are also what deal damage as I have already stated it not free damage cause you have to hit the launcher first. If they are getting hit by these launchers it their old damn fault. If you don't like how it works oh well. No one is going to not take advantage when they launch their opponent. This is not free damage cause you still have to work to get that launch.This is equivalent to someone complaining about projectile "spamming" in Street Fighter.

Spacing/footsies of course is what matters the most, but if I get a CH from Jann's 7k when they attempt their run in Im going to something like PPP6P so they are pushed back to the end of the screen and I can start my spacing again. Im not going to live by foolish rules. If you don't like juggles thats fine, but don't get mad when people do them to you when they are available to them in the game. You still have to work to achieve a launch.

On the subject of MKX Sheeva's return is good as Motaro's. She didn't really have an impact in MK at all so her return is very slim. Tremor has much better chances which might be likely considering in MK9 Vita he was part of the challenge tower so he might be an official character in MKX.

 

[Brute]

This discussion was really starting to go off-topic, so I moved some of the posts from the Mortal Kombat thread from there to here. A few posts related to this discussion were left in the MK Thread because they also addressed things specific to Mortal Kombat.

Anyway,
Argentus' approach seems to be that he favors high single-strike hit punishes over multi-hit combos. So where a strong, slow character lands a single hit for high damage, a weaker character must launch and then get a few subsequent juggle hits to net comparable damage. Similar effect, the only difference being in aesthetics and execution (funny enough, juggles are less "easy damage" than the single-hit punishes Argentus advocates as you have to hit more buttons and the like to get the same result). Juggles only net disproportionately "free damage" when the balancing of the game is off, but that can happen regarding any aspect of the game, juggles being no exception.

But this is all common sense to anyone who understands the concept of risk/reward on a basic level. It functions in Mortal Kombat just like is does in Tekken, Soul Calibur, DOA or really any other fighter aside from Divekick.

 

[Argentus]

This discussion was really starting to go off-topic, so I moved some of the posts from the Mortal Kombat thread from there to here. A few posts related to this discussion were left in the MK Thread because they also addressed things specific to Mortal Kombat.

Anyway,
Argentus' approach seems to be that he favors high single-strike hit punishes over multi-hit combos. So where a strong, slow character lands a single hit for high damage, a weaker character must launch and then get a few subsequent juggle hits to net comparable damage. Similar effect, the only difference being in aesthetics and execution (funny enough, juggles are less "easy damage" than the single-hit punishes Argentus advocates as you have to hit more buttons and the like to get the same result). Juggles only net disproportionately "free damage" when the balancing of the game is off, but that can happen regarding any aspect of the game, juggles being no exception.

But this is all common sense to anyone who understands the concept of risk/reward on a basic level. It functions in Mortal Kombat just like is does in Tekken, Soul Calibur, DOA or really any other fighter aside from Divekick.

To clarify, I'm well aware that in terms of damage, power strikes and juggles are equivalent. The reasons why I favor big hits yet detest juggles though is

1). Less risk with juggles for the same reward. What I mean is that with power hits you have to time a big slow attack. While with most juggles they can be done off any launcher, which can be done off most pokes. So I see people just mindlessly doing rush down till a lucky strike out of dozens connects because that's all it takes. Then just a memorized combo input and bam. So that "its your own fault for getting caught in a juggle" isn't a valid argument unless you honestly expect "good" players to simply perfect every round of every match. Its simply amatter of odds. Odds are that one of those dozens of jabs will land, then bam juggle and easy damage for minimal risk. (Punishments notwithstanding as I'm simply reasoning why I see people rushing in trying to open for launchers instead of focusing on the fight and just doing juggles when they come up"

But more importantly

2) juggles take too damn long. I would be fine with reason number 1 really. Because that's just execution. What grinds my gears is having to wait 5-10 seconds after every little hit the opponent lands, waiting for them to finish the combo. I had someone argue that its the same as being caught in Milas takedown, but I pointed out no, because with Milas takedown, you can try to break out. With juggles, you literally can't do anything except wait around for them to finish. With heavy hits, its just a single hit and then its done.
And it doesn't help that its not even exciting to look at. Just jab float jab float jab float jab float jab float......


Also a third gripe is the physics. Don't try to give me that "its a videogame with ninjas it doesn't have to have real physics" because that's both a copout and not true. In no other situation does a downward poke make a full body pop straight up and slowly float back down like Luigi kicking his feet. It doesn't make any goddamn sense even by in game standards. We can waive weight differences and what not but what the hell happened to their relative gravity, and newtons laws? They apply to everything else EXCEPT juggles.



....so yes that's mostly why I have zero respect for juggles. 1) low risk for high reward (execution is meaningless if the opponent can't do anything, so it really doesnt matter how complicated the actual juggle is), or at least that's how most people see them 2) too boring, and 3) no sense.


For the record, to anyone actually stupid enough to try to say "u just mad cuz u can't beat it", I actually get most of my damage and wins off punishing people trying to juggle.


Well aware I'm going to get flamed/bashed for my opinion, but there it is.

 

[Brute]

1) It's not "less risk" to go with a juggle because most juggles that net the same damage as "power hits" are unsafe or slow or require other prerequisites that make them risky as well. And then of course you have to do the juggle itself.

2) You can't really accuse juggles of taking too long when you play Mila, who spams tackles every 2 seconds that are so slow geriatrics could perform them. Also, you accuse juggles of taking too long right after you said that it's so cool that power hits are slower hits 'cause you think it's "more skilled" or whatever to punish with slower attacks.

 

[Argentus]

1) It's not "less risk" to go with a juggle because most juggles that net the same damage as "power hits" are unsafe or slow or require other prerequisites that make them risky as well. And then of course you have to do the juggle itself.

2) You can't really accuse juggles of taking too long when you play Mila, who spams tackles every 2 seconds that are so slow geriatrics could perform them. Also, you accuse juggles of taking too long right after you said that it's so cool that power hits are slower hits 'cause you think it's "more skilled" or whatever to punish with slower attacks.

1). Mostly I just see people poking like crazy to set up a launcher. The risk goes way down when its just a matter of throwing out endless jabs until you get lucky and one lands.

2). The difference is that the person caught in milas takedown is still playing. Its not "taking too long" because its still a fight with both players trying to beat each other on the timing for her next punch. Whereas with juggles, its just one person waiting around for the other to finish their combo. I keep my phone nearby so I have something to do while I'm waiting for juggles to finish.

As for power hits, as I said, after that one hit, attack is over continuing on with the fight. Whereas with juggles, after that one hit, now its time to wait for half a dozen more...



Honestly I just hate how juggles break the flow of a fight so much because its just "welp put the controller down and wait" time. Its like trying to watch a video that keeps stopping to buffer.

 

[Nameless Sama]

Häh ? I havent created this thread why I am the thread creator ?

 

[J.D.E.]

Dead or Alive is the one fighting game which is really fair. You can escape , you can protect yourself etc. MK or Street Fighter you only spam projectile lol. I have seen in MK9 the Tag Combos with scorpion and Subzero. That is more unblaanced than in 5U. 200% with one full combo. MK has more badass character and their focus is more on male character instead TN females , which I really prefer. What I like by Mortal Kombat is there are less DLC. I dont know but I think I paid for Dead or alive 5 and 5U more than 300$. That is insane. I fear that TN goes the same way like Capcom with making from the same game multi Version. ULTRA SUPER ALPHA DEAD OR ALIVE 5 ULTIMATE ARCADE Edition.

This is also incorrect to an extent. There's an answer for projectiles in those fighting games. Street Fighter's answer is the Focus charge cancel that allows you to dash back & forward to move in & out however you want to play the match up. You can Focus cancel to the point that either you can move in closer & then punish any projectile like Ryu's Ken's & Chun Li's fireballs or just move in close & then also use hyperarmor attacks to punish them for it or you can jump in & attack (even with a cross up attack). Also, if characters like Ryu that has a Dragon punch (Shoryuken, a move that is used as an anti air most of the time) can also be blocked & punished even with an anti-air of your own. It has poor recovery. It takes 39 frames to recover from that move exactly. This is just some basic knowledge of me starting out playing the game.

Mortal Kombat's answer for punishing projectiles I already gave you one example. Another is burning EX meter, the same way you would for hyper armor attacks in SF to punish attacks. OR you can use character's special to punish & avoid them. However, you wouldn't even have to even go that far against Scorpion or Sub-Zero for that matter because they're 2 characters with projectiles that don't have a lot of recovery & also extremely vulnerable on stand alone when using them. So all you would have to do with both is jump in & attack punish. Scorpion with his spear, Sub-Zero with his deep freeze (or ice ball). Scorpion's teleport is punishable on block for a juggle. That's his special for people who throw a projectile across the screen. He can also use it after a jump in punch in the air (air to air) as an option other than his air grab. Sub-Zero's answer's are his ice clone for ppl who like to jump in & his slide that can be blocked & punished for juggles (an anti-air).

I wouldn't consider this off topic personally. I welcome it. It's just fighting game knowledge that you have to know in any fighting game out there especially if you want to compete in an event. Which pertains to MK (& all other fighting games). Most of the time, like DOA, MK, SF, VF, KI, INJ & more fighting games that I know of, if you're using something very unsafe to put you at a disadvantage, you're getting punished with a juggle or a combo. Then of course some games you're being throw punished.
In MK, INJ, KI, & SF , you're being launched or punished by air to airs, anti-airs, jumping attacks, jump-in & out attacks that leads to juggles, or using something unsafe like Mileena's ball roll which launches. If she scores a hit, she's getting big juggle damage & often punishes a few projectiles/moves. If blocked, she's being punished hard for it. Whereas she has her FF+4 (Flying drop kick, 42+telekick) punishes ground projectiles but punishable with anti-airs on block while her jumping BF+2 (dagger throw in the air with or jump punch + sai dagger throw *JP+BF+Sai throw*) is an air-to-air punish that leads to a juggle. Just the pros & cons of using her specials. Risk vs Reward scenarios. All fighting games have them. The "klassic" fighting games do too actually. Just have be creative & know what to look for.

Mileena is a "kharacter" that has to take risk, but actually does well despite of that like Kasumi has to in DOA, regardless of how unsafe she is on block, she still has a great all-around game & has a lot of things that you would look for in a character such as a nice neutral game. It's just how those games work. Games may not function correctly without juggles imo with these types in this generation.

In some cases in DOA, you're punished with launchers. One example that I can give is Kasumi's 4PK & 6P6K launchers punish things like Hitomi's 4H+K, Rachel's 4H+K, Brad Wong's uppercut launcher that leaves him in BT, Kokoro's 7K, & Lei Fang's 33P+K. Well all of them leave them punishable on BT. Both lead to a juggle.

The concept of juggling or linking combos in fighters are to reward you damage of any aspect. Whether it's whiff punishing, guessing wrong or right in 50/50 situations, punishing moves that are unsafe, punishing players for attacking from disadvantage, playing good defense blocking out that leads to punishment, or playing good offense with good offensive tactics (including mixups & using guaranteed setups/damage), that's the sole purpose. If you take the juggles away from today's fighters, it would defeat the purpose along with taking away one of the basic & most important things of the FG's. That's why it's important to have juggles.

So if you're constantly getting juggled, then either you're being blown up for whiffed attacks, being unsafe, or not understanding what's going on for you to get caught in them. Either way, you would have to be doing something risky in order for that to happen.

I just quoted my last post. @Argentus you don't have to agree with what I'm saying. I'm just stating facts (not opinions) as to why juggles are put into the games. If you don't like the idea about the juggles being in any fighting game, then how are you going to have anyone play with you if you're not wanting to play by how the game works? It's in every fighting game. So of course you're going to get questioned & answered about it. I speak for myself when I say that I'm not bashing. If this were someone else who knew all about these games, then they would just flat out tell you that "You might as well not even play a fighting game". Not to mention that people "should & will" be rewarded for playing well. You have a character that revolves around take downs & ground game while others do not. The fact that your game comes from throw punishment comes from DOA & its mechanics, not every fighter. This takes away from competitive play & the games as a whole, not just DOA. That right there is a loss within itself.

 

[Argentus]

@Argentus you don't have to agree with what I'm saying. I'm just stating facts as to why juggles are put into the game. If you don't like the idea about the juggles being in any fighting game, then how are you going to have anyone play with you if you're not wanting to play by how the game works? It's in every fighting game. So of course you're going to get questioned & answered about it. I speak for myself when I say that I'm not bashing. If this were someone else, then they would just flat out tell you that "You might as well not even play a fighting game". Not to mention that people "should & will" be rewarded for playing well. You have a character that revolves around take downs while others do not. The fact that your game comes from throw punishment comes from DOA & its mechanics, not every fighter. This takes away from competitive play & the games as a whole, not just DOA. That right there is a loss within itself.

Hold it. I'm confused on what you are saying.

It sounds like you are trying to say I have to juggle to be effective? Because that's just plain not true. Like, at all.

Regardless, I know why its there, but I honestly think fighters should evolve into a better damage alternative than "keep off the ground/hackeysack". But a lot of the problem is that its simply too ingrained for people to think in any other way. Like I'm self taught so I have no issue not needing juggles but most others who look up how to play? Well, for example, a few years ago I suggested a basic outline of a new fighter, one where there are no launcher, no juggles. There is only knock down, and knock back, not knock up.

The reaction to this? "Well how are you supposed to do damage without juggles?"

....by...hitting them? The hell kinda question is that?! Same way you already do damage, but minus juggles.

Too many people cannot even comprehend how to do damage per hit, only thinking in terms of combos and juggles, that I believe it hurts the fgc as whole, because players have to be basically spoonfed their damage as a result.

Like in mortal kombat, I won by punishing with power attacks with Sheeva. Most of the time I immediately got hat email along the lines of "u suck fucking scrub don't even know any combos"

Well obviously I don't fucking need combos, so whats itatter if I do or don't know any? (I do, by the way). Even with Mileena and Sub Zero I don't combo or juggle. I do fine with hit and run, punishes, and counter hits.

Same with Street Fighter, King of Fighters, blazblue, soul caliber, etc, etc. Never felt a need to use juggles. Only time I ever did was Naruto Ultimate Storm 3, but that's due to my character having an insane extended air combo, and actually needing it to counter the broken cancel dash mechanic.

Point being whole juggles are certainly advantageous, there is ultimately no actual need for them, and I personally find them to suck the fun out of games due to how boring they are.


Though for the record, I'm not condemning hitting airborne opponents, nor combos. Just, juggles. Combos can leave me just as helpless but at least they aren't as visually or mechanically monotonous


Anyways that's my early morning rant.

 

[J.D.E.]

No, that's not what I'm saying lol. I'm saying that people would take that as a different mindset & view you as a scrub (not calling you one, just telling you like it is, hardly ever use the word) because of you saying that "juggles are dumb & they shouldn't exist". That's good that you're punishing by doing basic shit in fighters against scrubs getting hate mail in the process. That's fine, but don't complain if the person that you're fighting takes the time & extend their craft with learning the juggles through their setups that does tons of damage when developing a good gameplan. Back to studying

 

[Tenryuga]

So basically you have no real argument for disliking juggles. And I am sure the question "How am I supposed to inflict damage?" was really "How do I take 25%+ off my opponents health bar?" In a game without combos or juggles you either have each poke doing piss poor damage or too much damage for ZERO EFFORT AT ALL. Not to mention the potential flaws and drawbacks.

1. Pokes do too little damage: Players feel unsatisfied and not rewarded when they finally land that hit especially if their character is one of those that struggles to land hits. Fights drag on longer than they need to and become a test of patience for the wrong reasons.

2. Pokes do too much damage: Players are discontent because there is WAY TOO MUCH reward for landing ONE SINGLE POKE THAT TAKES NO EXECUTION AT ALL JUST A BUTTON PRESS THAT A TWO YEAR OLD IS CAPABLE OF. Which is funny because you talk about players being spoonfed damage yet the route you want to take has risk of actually making players get spoonfed damage. Combos and juggles have an execution barrier for a reason.

3. Pokes do moderate damage: This structure works in a 3D fighter provided the health bar is not that high. In Virtua fighter I use Jean Kujo and rarely have to juggle my opponent if at all. My damage mostly comes from his grabs and punishment as well as counter hit pokes. My juggles are there to punish somebody hardbody for doing something stupid and mashing when they aren't supposed to. Which is what these things are for anyway. They are punishing someone for getting hit. This kind of structure only works for specific types of characters in fighting games.

It's unfortunate that you have the view you do because your stance is valid in terms of valuing fundamental skills like punishment ability. But a player simply should not neglect anything that allows them to maximize their damage potential in any game.

 

[Nereus]

Same with Street Fighter, King of Fighters, blazblue, soul caliber, etc, etc. Never felt a need to use juggles. Only time I ever did was Naruto Ultimate Storm 3, but that's due to my character having an insane extended air combo, and actually needing it to counter the broken cancel dash mechanic.
Point being whole juggles are certainly advantageous, there is ultimately no actual need for them, and I personally find them to suck the fun out of games due to how boring they are.

You lost me at "King of Fighters" bud... KoF is HEAVY on juggles... hell.. there's even their own version of Yun's Genei-Jin Ultra for juggles. This is how i can tell you don't know what your talking about.