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Aven Kujo-Gin
Well-Known Member
2 new holds? What do you mean? I never heard such a thing.
Probably due to time contraints. DOA5 Vanilla was originally supposed to be released in the winter, not September.
Kronin
Well-Known Member
Yes, I would love to see the return of the stair mechanics from DoA4 (but without some balance problems that afflicted them in that game) =)
No one can say it for sure, however I believe that we will get other designer constests in future and there are high chances that the theme will not be more Halloween considering the high number of entries submitted in the last contest.
No one can say it for sure, however I believe that we will get other designer constests in future and there are high chances that the theme will not be more Halloween considering the high number of entries submitted in the last contest.
Personally, I hope DOA6 has both cliffhangers and stair mechanics.
Aven Kujo-Gin
Well-Known Member
Balance problems? Other than the bug that causes the game to freeze I think they are fine.
Kronin
Well-Known Member
I quote directly the explanation of Rikuto about what happened in the "Great Hall"/"Eternal Helix" stage:
Basically the player with the advantage (the one that was able to make fall the other) suddenly for no reason ended to become the one with the disadvantage getting an additional guessing, something definitely not fair. I'm not sure if this problem was present even in other stages presenting stairs but I suppose that is just an "exclusivity" of that level.
Argentus
Well-Known Member
but...its not a disadvantage. All the other person can do is kick or stand up.
The person still standing can hold/crush/block/avoid the kick easily. Sounds more like complaining they can't keep rushing.
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
That IS a disadvantage.
You have three different wakeup kicks in DOA 4 and any one of them cause a massive amount of advantage on hit.
Unless the character is spartan, playing the block game against it is a 50/50 which causes pushback on block that results it in being unpunishable, meaning only the person waking up has a chance to be rewarded. If the player chooses to hold, he only has a 33.3% chance of guessing correctly, putting the odds of success in the hands of the person waking up.
Either way, it's a bullshit situation to deal with.
It's not an issue of not being able to rush down, it's an issue of being rewarded with a negative situation. If they wanted to give the defender a break they would create space between the two opponents. This is not what happens. They glue them together and force the initial attacker to deal with some nonsense.
Some characters have special movement and can get away from the situation. Many do not.
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Argentus
Well-Known Member
On PAPER yeah, that sounds terrible. But two things
1) In practice, its more like an 85% chance of guessing correctly. Plus they run the risk of being reset right back on the ground if they do get their wakeup kick held. The pushback on block is the POINT, its just to get the attacker to back up for a moment. That's where the "creating space between opponents" comes in.
2) The "reward" has already passed, that was whatever damage you did to knock them down in the first place. (assuming your primary damage doesn't come from grounded opponents).
As is, wakeup kicks are probably the most "balanced" situation, because its not bullshit for attacker or defender. Attacker already did their attack, which knocked the opponent on the ground, and defender has a chance to get back in the game. Defender is still at a disadvantage though because if they are read, or aren't fast enough, their ass is put right back on the ground after a punish.
As opposed to say, DOA5's force tech bullshit, where say, Helena could just knock you down on the ground once and then that's it you lose due to the blender, and no option for wakeup kicks to stop her momentum.
That's how I see it anyway.
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
And you see it incorrectly.
Being on the ground isn't a problem in DOA 4. It's a position of strength compared to any other fighting game. Yes, pushback on block for wakeup kicks is decent game design. Forcing someone to deal with a supercharged wakeup kick game when they have no intention of continuing to attack is shit game design. And I don't understand where this magical 85% is coming from as you have provided no reasoning behind it, unlike my post which broke down all general options that are not character specific.
Again, wrong. The damage reward for putting someone into breakable/transition environment in DOA 4 is fairly minimal in most cases. Worse yet, it won't KO in most cases either. You get a little extra damage, and then get put into a position where you are likely to lose the entire fight. They are attached, its cause and effect no matter how much you want to ignore it for the sake of chest thumping that DOA 4 is a superior game. End of story.
Being on the ground isn't a problem in DOA 4. It's a position of strength compared to any other fighting game. Yes, pushback on block for wakeup kicks is decent game design. Forcing someone to deal with a supercharged wakeup kick game when they have no intention of continuing to attack is shit game design. And I don't understand where this magical 85% is coming from as you have provided no reasoning behind it, unlike my post which broke down all general options that are not character specific.
Again, wrong. The damage reward for putting someone into breakable/transition environment in DOA 4 is fairly minimal in most cases. Worse yet, it won't KO in most cases either. You get a little extra damage, and then get put into a position where you are likely to lose the entire fight. They are attached, its cause and effect no matter how much you want to ignore it for the sake of chest thumping that DOA 4 is a superior game. End of story.
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Yun-Seong
Member
I'm pretty sure that after trailer with Kasumi and Akira there was information on official website that they gonna give 2 extra holds for characters(expert holds probably but not sure). That woulb be fair as Ayane got expert hold on that trailer and we could see Kasumi get also new one for mid leg. Hope they gonna do that in DoA6. I have too many ideas for moves, throws and holds ^^
KwonJigglypuff
Well-Known Member
Post them.
However, I think it's nice that some characters have them (Rig has an expert mid kick one, Hitomi an expert mid punch one), and those who were designed at the end don't (Brad.. Lisa.. Eliot.. Helena). It's not a big problem, it suits their individuality.
However, I think it's nice that some characters have them (Rig has an expert mid kick one, Hitomi an expert mid punch one), and those who were designed at the end don't (Brad.. Lisa.. Eliot.. Helena). It's not a big problem, it suits their individuality.
Xernuht
Well-Known Member
I'd like to remind you that this is a fighting game with ninjas, clones, demons and cyborgs. A flat-chested goth-loli and a schoolgirl with a Sharingan and huge tits are not the weirdest things in the game.
But that's just me.
If it is handled like the last contest, thanks, but no thanks! :/ What they basically said last time: Alright, just give all stuff you have to us. You won't ever see or hear of it again...unless we put it in the game, duh! That's kinda unprofessional, in my opinion no real contest at all and I'm glad, I didn't participate.
Argentus
Well-Known Member
Weirdest, no, but still spectacularly out of place. Those two would be more at home in something like a dating sim or senran kagura. Again its just the fact that they are generic anime designs (intentionally, mind you) against the otherwise unique DOA cast, that bugs me. They (all dlc characters really) don't fit the DOA aesthetic.
Yeah that's bugging the hell out of me as well.
I get wanting to avoid the drama of people hating designs like the Halloween contest before that, but at least don't insult us by calling it a contest. Or at LEAST announce the winners that will be in game or something.
Kronin
Well-Known Member
Honestly Marie Rose and Honoka seem to me just ordinary fighter archetypes from anime sources: how much schoolgirls or gothic lolitas there are in other games, especially 2D fighters? The introduction of them doesn't appear to me too much different from introducing the classic fighters that always happen, as the Bruce Lee or old kung fu master variations: the DoA series has always made use of the second ones and has always demonstrated high influences from the anime sources (even with certain old outfits). If something imo it's just the opposite with Honoka under this matter, to me she can appear repetitive because Itagaki had already introduced in DoA a classic Japanese schoolgirl in Kokoro "covering" her with the geisha background (and btw a character with an indirect tie with DOATEC just like Honoka too) that anyway contributed to make the character more "never heard before".
If the matter is not the kind of character but rather the appearence then sure, the design is important and just as @Kodachi mentioned, from the recent artbook we know that in the beginning more original variations of the two characters were got in consideration compared to the definitive ones (overall with the final Honoka that gives the impression to exploit partially the success of the "Love Live!" main heroine); but in the end I believe that the point is overall the low use of the DLC potential that afflicts all the characters but that maybe is particularly decisive for these two and in particular for Marie. The gothic lolita fashion can be appreciated or less but I assure you that Marie Rose is an endless source for elaborated costumes, she could easily become one of the character with the most different and unique wardrobe in the roster and paradoxically one of the most recognizable too if the people behind the game would care for giving a major care under the DLC outfits (thought on the basis of the character rather than as part of a theme for everyone).
In my opinion the characters most out of place in the DoA series were Bankotsubo and Spartan, much more than the new DLC female additions: the first one because introducing a monster inhuman kind of character that has never got a second example (and in the original canon his story and presence appeared more as an out of blue parenthesis from the main plot, rather as a Ninja Gaiden pilot); the second one because introducing a full sci-fi theme with aliens and time/space jouneys that again has nothing to see with what we know of the DoA series. However both of them can be justified with the first one being anyway part of the Japanese folklore (and DoA is based on it considering that talk about shinobi) while the second one because in the end just a guest character. And of course with this I'm not saying that these weren't unique characters (especially the presence of a tengu in a fighting game) and even less that I don't like them (I hope to have demonstrated enough how much I love the DoA2 boss
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About the contests, this is unrelated from what it was said in the last posts but in general I would like to say it: with the three attempts done Team NINJA showned to use more opposite routes for trying to appeal everyone (contest hold on Facebook or on their site/ votes even from the fans or only from the team/ deciding to make all the high voted outfits DLC or deciding to make a selection even between them/ applying their own judgement for editing-switching the entries between the characters or remaining completely faithful to the fan designs), but like predictable everytime there are always complaints or not a decisive majority of consense because the fanbase has ideas and tastes too much far between them.
I think that everyone should take act that Team NINJA definitely tried concretely to use different ways for finding the satisfaction of the fanbase from time to time, so we should accept that they should get a route and go with it because the outcome is similar in every cases.
About the recent point on TN never mentioning something on the last contest, honestly the same happened even in the previous ones so I don't understand the surprise here. The outfits were sent, in that cases there was the additional part of immediately selecting the winners from the popularity vote (thing that here is not present), and then we saw them directly at the moment of the DLC release: if this time Team NINJA plans to make "winner outfit = most voted from them = DLC", then I expect to see them directly in October.
The revelations of the winners will be accompanied directly with the revelation of what outfits will become DLC: showing the first before would cut any news for the second one. I'm not saying that some more care to the contest event wouldn't be appreciated, but in the end I don't know what TN could do of really useful about this matter just now.
If something I dislike to not be able to see all the entries in a wall post, this on the opposite would make even more hype for the final revelations of the DLC (with people knowing the choices for each character outfit that they can expect). But I suppose that TN has surely some reasons for having got this decision, overall considering that they are continuing to use fan vote and visibile wall of entries for the photo contest.
If the matter is not the kind of character but rather the appearence then sure, the design is important and just as @Kodachi mentioned, from the recent artbook we know that in the beginning more original variations of the two characters were got in consideration compared to the definitive ones (overall with the final Honoka that gives the impression to exploit partially the success of the "Love Live!" main heroine); but in the end I believe that the point is overall the low use of the DLC potential that afflicts all the characters but that maybe is particularly decisive for these two and in particular for Marie. The gothic lolita fashion can be appreciated or less but I assure you that Marie Rose is an endless source for elaborated costumes, she could easily become one of the character with the most different and unique wardrobe in the roster and paradoxically one of the most recognizable too if the people behind the game would care for giving a major care under the DLC outfits (thought on the basis of the character rather than as part of a theme for everyone).
In my opinion the characters most out of place in the DoA series were Bankotsubo and Spartan, much more than the new DLC female additions: the first one because introducing a monster inhuman kind of character that has never got a second example (and in the original canon his story and presence appeared more as an out of blue parenthesis from the main plot, rather as a Ninja Gaiden pilot); the second one because introducing a full sci-fi theme with aliens and time/space jouneys that again has nothing to see with what we know of the DoA series. However both of them can be justified with the first one being anyway part of the Japanese folklore (and DoA is based on it considering that talk about shinobi) while the second one because in the end just a guest character. And of course with this I'm not saying that these weren't unique characters (especially the presence of a tengu in a fighting game) and even less that I don't like them (I hope to have demonstrated enough how much I love the DoA2 boss
)--------------------------------------------------------
About the contests, this is unrelated from what it was said in the last posts but in general I would like to say it: with the three attempts done Team NINJA showned to use more opposite routes for trying to appeal everyone (contest hold on Facebook or on their site/ votes even from the fans or only from the team/ deciding to make all the high voted outfits DLC or deciding to make a selection even between them/ applying their own judgement for editing-switching the entries between the characters or remaining completely faithful to the fan designs), but like predictable everytime there are always complaints or not a decisive majority of consense because the fanbase has ideas and tastes too much far between them.
I think that everyone should take act that Team NINJA definitely tried concretely to use different ways for finding the satisfaction of the fanbase from time to time, so we should accept that they should get a route and go with it because the outcome is similar in every cases.
About the recent point on TN never mentioning something on the last contest, honestly the same happened even in the previous ones so I don't understand the surprise here. The outfits were sent, in that cases there was the additional part of immediately selecting the winners from the popularity vote (thing that here is not present), and then we saw them directly at the moment of the DLC release: if this time Team NINJA plans to make "winner outfit = most voted from them = DLC", then I expect to see them directly in October.
The revelations of the winners will be accompanied directly with the revelation of what outfits will become DLC: showing the first before would cut any news for the second one. I'm not saying that some more care to the contest event wouldn't be appreciated, but in the end I don't know what TN could do of really useful about this matter just now.
If something I dislike to not be able to see all the entries in a wall post, this on the opposite would make even more hype for the final revelations of the DLC (with people knowing the choices for each character outfit that they can expect). But I suppose that TN has surely some reasons for having got this decision, overall considering that they are continuing to use fan vote and visibile wall of entries for the photo contest.
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Lady Tengu
Well-Known Member
Me reading the last couple pages that have been off topic
My reaction when people tried to defend Marie and Honoka
My reaction when people tried to defend Marie and Honoka
Kronin
Well-Known Member
I don't think to have said anything of so wrong and absurd and mine was neither a proper defense; putting aside my personal preferences for the two characters actually I agree with various things that the detractors already said about Marie Rose and Honoka.
I mentioned how the characters are surely clichè categories of the Japanese manga/anime tradition:
And I mentioned how Team NINJA ended to use graphically a plain representation, overall considering their more original sketches:
What I said in favor of them is just that they don't seem to me so absurd when already other fighting game series make use of them:
Neither out of place when Marie and Honoka are still representation enough "realistic" compared to other fantasy series and DoA already used in the past anime elements, neither so plain when the series make already use of fighting game archetyps clichè (like every fighting franchise):
I'm far from saying that it wasn't possible make a more original work on these 2 characters from an appearence matter (even if Marie Rose is already unique in the DoA roster), just that their introduction don't seem to me so weird as other people think. But of course everyone has to remain free to get his own opinion about.
Just for returning to the topic of the DLC costumes (because it's true that this is an huge off topic, so better to stop here the discussion that I fueled as my usual), personally I believe that the two characters could be used much better if Marie Rose would start to get gothic lolita outfits as her character is supposed to wear for the most (and the possibilites for different outfits are countless). If Honoka is so far for the plot just a simple Japanese schoolgirl, it would have been nice to make of her a sort of representant girl of the clichè outfits, attributing to her all the classic JPN outfits that instead ended to be get even to characters that has absolutely nothing to do with it (as Christie or Rachel). In this way it would have been kept the uniqueness of the vestiary for everyone and again it would have been possible to make characteristic Honoka even if with outftis that are all beside than that (as school swimsuits or gym), and in all this keeping a meaning behind the choices done. However TN surely wasn't thinking to create her character during the development of DoA5 and DoA5U. On a sidenote I've to say anyway that I really like all the in disc outfits of Honoka, in my opinion was made a good work on them maybe just because they seem so casual and various like few characters of the roster own.
I mentioned how the characters are surely clichè categories of the Japanese manga/anime tradition:
And I mentioned how Team NINJA ended to use graphically a plain representation, overall considering their more original sketches:
What I said in favor of them is just that they don't seem to me so absurd when already other fighting game series make use of them:
Neither out of place when Marie and Honoka are still representation enough "realistic" compared to other fantasy series and DoA already used in the past anime elements, neither so plain when the series make already use of fighting game archetyps clichè (like every fighting franchise):
I'm far from saying that it wasn't possible make a more original work on these 2 characters from an appearence matter (even if Marie Rose is already unique in the DoA roster), just that their introduction don't seem to me so weird as other people think. But of course everyone has to remain free to get his own opinion about.
Just for returning to the topic of the DLC costumes (because it's true that this is an huge off topic, so better to stop here the discussion that I fueled as my usual), personally I believe that the two characters could be used much better if Marie Rose would start to get gothic lolita outfits as her character is supposed to wear for the most (and the possibilites for different outfits are countless). If Honoka is so far for the plot just a simple Japanese schoolgirl, it would have been nice to make of her a sort of representant girl of the clichè outfits, attributing to her all the classic JPN outfits that instead ended to be get even to characters that has absolutely nothing to do with it (as Christie or Rachel). In this way it would have been kept the uniqueness of the vestiary for everyone and again it would have been possible to make characteristic Honoka even if with outftis that are all beside than that (as school swimsuits or gym), and in all this keeping a meaning behind the choices done. However TN surely wasn't thinking to create her character during the development of DoA5 and DoA5U. On a sidenote I've to say anyway that I really like all the in disc outfits of Honoka, in my opinion was made a good work on them maybe just because they seem so casual and various like few characters of the roster own.
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Argentus
Well-Known Member
"cliche" is one thing. Marie rose is that, but to such an absurd degree that she is indistinguishable from other anime lolis.
But Honoka, for example, is not a "cliche", she's an outright "copy" of an existing character.
The previous doa characters could be called "cliches". We have the schoolgirls, the token Hulk Hogan wrestler, the bruce lee clone, the ninjas, the "goofy" character, the "chinese qipao dress girl", etc, etc. But other than falling under a general category, they're unique and recognizable.
But Marie Rose and Honoka go above and beyond being just cliches. Honoka isn't "just a schoolgir". She IS the girl from Love Live or whatever its called, design wise, with Raidous mimicry fighting style. Marie Rose is a babyfaced loli (I don't care about her having a small chest, its the FACE that screams 6 year old), who I honestly can't tell apart from any other given loli. Nothing about her design is unique enough to distinguish her. She's a stock design.
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