DOA6 Debate: Does DOA6 need more difficult/High level execution characters?

Xhominid The Demon Within

Well-Known Member
This is why characters such as Akira (VF) are the perfect example of achieving extraordinary rewards for having that difficulty to begin with while being extremely versatile and viable for all play. Changing that goes against what the character was originally built for since he actually made sense. Now changing the regular characters who are simple for general light damage and making them difficult however would be pointless as it'll push people away from playing those characters (which is not good for anyone at all) on top of the cost reward being less for playing them.

In short, there is no reason to making the already simple characters difficult except for measuring pipe with one another (which is also pointless). How I see it? you want difficult characters with actual rewards that make sense? add/make the character. If not, then adding pointless execution for minimum reward on the current cast that should be easy to begin with shouldn't be a thing.

Till this day, I still laugh at the Raijin input from Hayate where it's mostly being used as style points seeing as the damage is pointless for a character that is hardly difficult at all. The throw itself is currently what it means for bragging rights than the meaning of execution.

I've been calling that shit for Raijin since DOA4, barely does any real damage to justify the absolutely terrible input or even anything special about it(no extra popup, no wallbounce or groundbounce or anything).

And I absolutely agree 100% with what you say @DestructionBomb. You can't really make NiCO, Diego, etc,. suddenly be more difficult execution wise because not only was the characters not meant to be high execution wise, but the people who liked them because they had low difficulty would then get turned off because the characters suddenly became technical just because.

It also fits into the fact of inputs themselves vs. the reward. Let's be frank, there's no damn reason why Raidou's Airgrab unlike every other character in the game(or most characters) is the Raging Storm input over simply pressing the Grab button like every other grab? It does nothing anymore different than any other grab as far as I've seen. It's just high execution for the sake of high execution(which is HILARIOUSLY out of place compared to 263+P which actually has a reason for it's execution status).
There's no point in trying to make a move difficult for the sake of it if there's no reward for it past to make it difficult because if that's the case, why use the move at all? There is no reason to go for a full on Raijin grab... when it's damage is barely anymore than a good Hayate combo?
Why ever use Momiji's Combo Air Grab(236+PP360Grab)... when the same combo ending with PPPP does more damage than the grab in every other circumstance?

If there's no further reward for the risk... then what's the point of the risk? It's why I found Power Launchers to be an utter failure when they was introduced in DOA5U: The hypothetical damage they can do is very rarely realized and it's very, very easy to drop and completely botch it compared to Power Blows.
 
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Brute

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
You can't really make NiCO, Diego, etc,. suddenly be more difficult execution wise because not only was the characters not meant to be high execution wise, but the people who liked them because they had low difficulty would then get turned off
Ah, but this sounds wonderful.
 

Akumasama

Active Member
Difficult mechanical input/executions should be something present for players who like it, but it shouldn't be forced onto every character in the roster.
My personal stance on this is that I despise difficult input for commands.
Especially in those games where game designers decide that they can allow an incredibly Overpowered move to exist because its input is very difficult. That's a very stupid way to balance things out, bad game design. In my humble opinion, of course.

Personally I think the beauty of a fighting game, which can be like a very high speed chess match, should be in the mental games and strategies of players. Their strength should be their brain, their experience; not how good and precise their fingers are, or how good their stick/joypad is.

I'm fine with a few characters being more towards "difficult inputs", there's so many characters in nowadays' fighting games, why not?
But I'd be very unsatisfied if a gamedesigner tried to force that approach into every single (or the majority) character.
 

Brute

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
My personal stance on this is that I despise difficult input for commands.
Especially in those games where game designers decide that they can allow an incredibly Overpowered move to exist because its input is very difficult. That's a very stupid way to balance things out, bad game design. In my humble opinion, of course.

Personally I think the beauty of a fighting game, which can be like a very high speed chess match, should be in the mental games and strategies of players. Their strength should be their brain, their experience; not how good and precise their fingers are, or how good their stick/joypad is.

I'm fine with a few characters being more towards "difficult inputs", there's so many characters in nowadays' fighting games, why not?
But I'd be very unsatisfied if a gamedesigner tried to force that approach into every single (or the majority) character.
My personal preference is that I like inputs to reflect the move. So yeah, the shoho izuna drop could be changed to a simpler/easier P+KPPT command, but having it as 236P+KPP23698741T reflects the motions done. The added inputs give a little flair that says "Hey, you did the move you're seeing. Neat, right?"

Then there's Raidou's grabs/throws, where it's just a bunch of random directions that don't really represent what he's doing at all. And it's like... okay? Why?
 

KwonJigglypuff

Well-Known Member
My personal preference is that I like inputs to reflect the move. So yeah, the shoho izuna drop could be changed to a simpler/easier P+KPPT command, but having it as 236P+KPP23698741T reflects the motions done. The added inputs give a little flair that says "Hey, you did the move you're seeing. Neat, right?"

Then there's Raidou's grabs/throws, where it's just a bunch of random directions that don't really represent what he's doing at all. And it's like... okay? Why?

Also, is it me or does Raidou's air grab requires a specifically irritating launch height ? When you look at Lisa's BT air throw, it's ridiculous. Just make the imput like 214236 so I can enjoy it once during a match. Or make the launch height easier.
 

DestructionBomb

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Also, is it me or does Raidou's air grab requires a specifically irritating launch height ? When you look at Lisa's BT air throw, it's ridiculous. Just make the imput like 214236 so I can enjoy it once during a match. Or make the launch height easier.

Funny bit here.

Boss Raidou from story mode in 6 has his Underworld Hell drop throw do half damage on HiC (this kinda makes sense since the input is difficult for people), including the OH throw does half, along with the air throw that does around 90 to 100. Is the damage too much? probably, but it does feel like the move damage actually reflects the input being done. Regular Raidou has damage toned down vs the boss version however still playable, but not convincing enough for people to actually stick to him when you can somewhat play other characters that can do similar damage by just throwing twice.

And now examine Alpha (who's playable in 5), has a throw that does half damage on HiC (easy as heck mind you, hardly difficult at all) is i9/i11/i13 (one of the fastest speed type characters with barely any execution) with the only downsides is that she's a featherweight which is the lightest class in the game for balance to which people 80% of the time will likely whiff a juggle here and there while finding specific timing juggles vs her or no-timing, and no holds except a parry hold which is basically a hold that knocks back and resets momentum which is good. Obviously the reason for this is because she's a glass cannon, but there are also glass cannon characters from other games that has to put some type of effort into particular moves.
 
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Brute

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
And now examine Alpha (who's playable in 5), has a throw that does half damage on HiC (easy as heck mind you, hardly difficult at all) is i9/i11/i13 (one of the fastest speed type characters with barely any execution) with the only downsides is that she's a featherweight which is the lightest class in the game for balance to which people 80% of the time will likely whiff a juggle here and there while finding specific timing juggles vs her or no-timing, and no holds except a parry hold which is basically a hold that knocks back and resets momentum which is good. Obviously the reason for this is because she's a glass cannon, but there are also glass cannon characters from other games that has to put some type of effort into particular moves.
Alpha also lacked conventional wake-up kicks.
 

Onryoki

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Then there's Raidou's grabs/throws, where it's just a bunch of random directions that don't really represent what he's doing at all. And it's like... okay? Why?
^ this. It’s highkey retarded
 

Hold_Junkie93

Well-Known Member
Honestly I feel that's a real dangerous precedent to follow in a fighting game of all things. Overwatch stems from a similar problem in that you have people not a fan of how characters who have low difficulty can easily change the course of matches wholesale moreso than the high difficulty characters but atleast that can be excused usually due to the kits and it being a FPS.

In terms of a fighting game, trying to force characters who are low effort to not have any real decent reward seems like a completely batshit idea that would only further make people leave the game.
Shoto Characters in SF is renowned for the fact that for the most part, they are low risk until you get to know them but still have pretty decent to good gains depending on the patches and otherwise with only a few shotos being more difficult due to various things added to their kits after that(Akuma, Evil Ryu, Oni).
This also happened in SC in which Ivy has gotten easier and easier to play throughout the series(atleast to Ivy pros) to the point most of her difficulty is just not there anymore(someone will correct me on this if I'm wrong but I heard that alot from SC fans).

You shouldn't be trying to punish characters who are low risk because it's virtually something Itagaki would do(remember that people lambasted Itagaki saying that Wrestlers shouldn't beat Ninjas? You are basically saying something similar).
My friend and I were talking about that some players feel like (Esp. In 6) That the grab archtype is kinda pointless unless you just like the characters . The strike heavy characters can virtually do the same thing with their throws and scare you, just the same as grappler. Also, the moves some characters have basically use the same tools and some being downright copy cats of another.

They probably did this to achieve system balance but VF has unique characters without breaking the established meta that is there for everyone within the mechanics. Everyone uses the same mechanics differently. Like bounds, crumples, floats, wall juggles/set ups. Some people are made to have worse punishes because they'd be too well rounded and that is the issue with DoA. Some characters are too well rounded and holds even the playing field too well. lIke VF has evades but you need to know how to utilize sideturn, what advantage you are when you do evade certain moves, like if you evade Akira's regular elbow 66P, he's safe on evade. Super dash 666P, is a little unsafe on evade but safer on hit in FS. SPOD startup is launch punishable on evade. So, it feels fair within its context.
 

KwonJigglypuff

Well-Known Member
I don't want "hard-imputs" newcomer, but I wish Team Ninja could create ambitious characters with creative stances. Rig and Marie were good in that department. I'm not saying "stance" equals "creativity", but Diego and NiCO were pretty straightforward for my taste and not hard-learning enough. Where is the challenge?

I would love to learn how to play a multiple-stance traditional fighter for instance. I know 8 stances is a bit complicated to incorporate, but this is what I had in mind in the past. A character mixing Lei-Fei's complexity, Zafina's flexibility, Wii Fit trainer's positions, Viola's attitude. Not sure how to realize it properly. Needs more precision and some of your feedback, guys.

D1oIRBgXcAEfAP0.jpeg
 

Kuga

Active Member
My friend and I were talking about that some players feel like (Esp. In 6) That the grab archtype is kinda pointless unless you just like the characters . The strike heavy characters can virtually do the same thing with their throws and scare you, just the same as grappler. Also, the moves some characters have basically use the same tools and some being downright copy cats of another.

They probably did this to achieve system balance but VF has unique characters without breaking the established meta that is there for everyone within the mechanics. Everyone uses the same mechanics differently. Like bounds, crumples, floats, wall juggles/set ups. Some people are made to have worse punishes because they'd be too well rounded and that is the issue with DoA. Some characters are too well rounded and holds even the playing field too well. lIke VF has evades but you need to know how to utilize sideturn, what advantage you are when you do evade certain moves, like if you evade Akira's regular elbow 66P, he's safe on evade. Super dash 666P, is a little unsafe on evade but safer on hit in FS. SPOD startup is launch punishable on evade. So, it feels fair within its context.
But i believe evade itself works pretty much the same in DoA6. Difference is why bother with deep frame analysis of every move on SS when you can do universal SSA. I was really glad when they removes SSAs from VF.

I don't want "hard-imputs" newcomer, but I wish Team Ninja could create ambitious characters with creative stances. Rig and Marie were good in that department. I'm not saying "stance" equals "creativity", but Diego and NiCO were pretty straightforward for my taste and not hard-learning enough. Where is the challenge?

I would love to learn how to play a multiple-stance traditional fighter for instance. I know 8 stances is a bit complicated to incorporate, but this is what I had in mind in the past. A character mixing Lei-Fei's complexity, Zafina's flexibility, Wii Fit trainer's positions, Viola's attitude. Not sure how to realize it properly. Needs more precision and some of your feedback, guys.

View attachment 28501
But you have Brad. Id say he very much character for you. 8 stances char can be made but it would demand so much work to create that its not even profitable for developer. Especially TN since they can make 3 new lolis in a place of one such fighter.

Flow, transitions that actually makes a stance usable, balance - so much work. And why even bother - have you ever seen Lei, LeiFei or Brad player that utilized entire character potential in battle? Have you seen a truly creative player that plays completely different with such character from everyone else? Because i didnt. So why bother creating super complex character when people wont even use half of his potential.

Raidou is straightfowrard as hell and he is quite hard learning in comparison with Diego and Nico. Why? He is slow and not mobile (not to mention worse moveset) so he demands much better defense, knowledge of other characters to be really good.
Straightforward character does not always = no challenge and no hard-learning.
 
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Hold_Junkie93

Well-Known Member
@Kuga I'll answer your question. It's because it's a more fun system overall. The SS is nothing like DoA's. There's repercussions for trying to simply do it. Like if you try to evade with no intent, esp from far which I've seen people do in DoA6 with the hopes of the attacks from the step extending to hit your advancement, reaction etc in VF, doing that can get you launched if your opponent is paying attention. Same with stances that are thrown out on whiff or block that doesn't grant plus, and you try to pick a move.
 

Kuga

Active Member
Yes, failed evade, i know. Still you can cut some recovery by CD cancel if my memory serves me.

But i meant succesful evade frame adv situation.
 

Hold_Junkie93

Well-Known Member
Yes, failed evade, i know. Still you can cut some recovery by CD cancel if my memory serves me.

But i meant succesful evade frame adv situation.
Yes, failed evade, i know. Still you can cut some recovery by CD cancel if my memory serves me.

But i meant succesful evade frame adv situation.
Yes, failed evade, i know. Still you can cut some recovery by CD cancel if my memory serves

But i meant succesful evade frame adv situation.
Yes, ecd. There's answers to it as well. I just think that a comparison with evade in VF and ssa in DoA6 is unfair, simply because SSA in DoA6 is just a glorified DP. You constantly hold back because of it to punish it on block. Or you turn to usually slow tracks that people can hold, or you end up only using tracks because some people don't care. The recent nerfs to it allow for your momentum to keep going potentially.
The systems of sidestep in those two games are just way different considering string don't auto track due to someone fail evading and using that attack. Is why I bring it up as a point.

Yes, for its invincibility it just resets neutral to balance its perks. I just think it's not too in depth or a calculated decision when I see SSA in DoA6. It's more, "Oh, I'm getting pressured, let me do SSA." There's no thought process behind it most of the time. It's nice when you SSA to a hazard, but yeah. VF's is more like, you can do it, but just because you successfully evaded doesn't always grant you a reward for doing so. So, yes, you have to pay attention to what linear attacks you're evading and generally outwit someone with the sideturn gameplay. EDIT:My bad on the errors. I'm typing on PS4, it's a pain. I hit delete and it takes away the keyboard.
 
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Kuga

Active Member
Yes, i agree that they are different overall. In VF everything is thought out, every part of SS system is programed with risk/reward in mind. In DoA it was something like "lets implement working SS"...and that's all, so vanilla SS/SSA in DoA6 was crap. Now its a little better, but there should be something like failed evade.

I like how Final Showdown turned out. If only TN would listen to players like Sega.
 
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