DOA5U Kasumi's match video and critique thread

[Chapstick]

I wonder how you come up with this opinion. Imo, that performance was not that bad, I actually like this style. Japanese (Kasumi) players tend to play a bit more passive and since Leifang can cause a lot of trouble with her parries, that guy did really well to deal with by using range tactics, delays and kicks. Do you mind to explain why you think he was lucky a lot? Imo, he just guessed - sometimes wrong and sometimes right, but that's what you also have to do with Kasumi because you need to rely on counter-hits.

The only thing I would recommend not to do is throwing out that 9PK that much. Everything else looks fine to me.

Guessing right is luck because you're just guessing. Throwing out unsafe moves left and right (9KP specifically) and not getting punished for it everytime is lucky on the Kasumi's part and silly on the Leifang's part. Hoshinpo K'ing and having the K connect to launch instead of being blocked and throw punished is lucky.

Hoshinpo 9P+K'ing everywhere can easily be punished on the recovery with ranged attacks like Leifang's 9PP, 66P, even her 66T OH if Kasumi tries to throw out a random attack. It looked sloppy and inconsistent and most of all looked like my Kasumi (*plus 200 9P+K's thrown in) which is very sloppy and inconsistent.

 

[tokiopewpew]

I agree on the things you say about the (miss-) usage of 9PK. It can look sloppy and inconsistent if it's used in the wrong way or situations. However, since the guy in the video did not receive any hard punishment from the Leifang player for doing it, why should he stop? It's like I could use 1PP or 66KK all day long if my opponents starts poking on my block right after it instead of taking advantage of my faults (e.g with throw-punishment). His spacing tactics aimed to lure the Leifang player doing whiffs in a range were he can use 9PK for punishment (good examples are at 2:56 and 3:45). His opponent failed with taking advantage of missed Hoshinpo enders as well as timing his actions in space for preventing incoming 9PK's.

You are right when you are saying that guessing is luck, but the whole game (or some match-ups) is full with guessing situations were you either can be right or wrong. Taking Jann Lee's Dragon gunner as example. You can anticipate all his follow-up opportunities with the right guess, but you can also be wrong every time. If I would show you a video of a player that has won dozens of tournaments with his Jann Lee, were all of his attempts to get into the stun game after using the Dragon gunner get blown up (parried, hold, whatever), would you say he is a bad example for how Jann Lee should be played, just because he chose the wrong follow-up after it? Or would you say he is just lucky a lot if he lands all his follow-ups?

In case of Kasumi, her Honshinpo transition is something similar that forces the opponent to make a guess. He has to decide if he does a sidestep, duck, hold or just block. Kasumi can do the right attack out of it, just with luck and the right guess. So yeah, if Hoshinpo K hit's it may be lucky, but does this mean one should not do it because it is?

I also like to use Kasumi's 4PK sometimes although I know it's unsafe on block, just to see if my opponent knows and/or respects my opportunity for a follow-up after 4P. I might get punished if he does, but that means I might be able to foresee his actions better in following situations. I would stop if it get's blocked too much, but why should I stop to take advantage of this little launcher, if I'm sure my opponent does not care about? (= this is also always a guess). Furthermore, I wouldn't say that the match we are talking about was decided because of some successfully used Hoshinpo enders.

Personally, I also wouldn't use 9PK that much too. It almost never pays of for me because I'm mostly guessing wrong when my opponents is in the range for it and I'm able to hit him (e.g. after a whiff). However, you can't blame the Kasumi player in the video for using stuff that worked of for him. If you do this, could blame almost every winner of a match that was won by holding correctly against his opponents moves. In my point of view, the "skill" in this game comes from knowledge about frame data (what is unsafe, when to punish?) as well as from the ability to guess when to use the right stuff. The player has to decide by himself when to do so and he should be aware of risks that might come with it.

What I want to say is that one should not rate down a players style/quality by saying "he was just lucky" just because he won a match with taking advantage of situations were he was guessing right, as long as it is not too obvious (which was not the case in the match we are talking about because of the things I wrote above). Especially because you wrote that he was lucky "a lot". I've seen ways more Kasumi players on the streams of the last big tournaments in the US that were YOLO-ing their way trough it, looking ways more sloppy and inconsistent as our Japanese friend we are talking about here. Therefore, I don't see any reason why Cake (or someone else) shouldn't take some note of this match, apart from the 9PK abuse, which I still (like I said before) wouldn't recommend to do that much.

 

[tokiopewpew]

Soooo ... during the weekend, I was finally able to play some matches with my friend Hitmandu91 again. He's not playing that often, so I guess he had to "warm-up" a bit, considering that our first matches were very equal until he started to completely out-acting me with his Jacky. The more we played, the more I had to scratch my head, wondering what to do better in this match-up.

Were my actions really that predictable? During the last rounds, I started to feel almost helpless, lacking of adequate tools to get him into stun for a juggle, same for tracking moves. Even the strings and variations including 6PK did not work as something I would have been able to get some advantage off, since he mostly interrupted them or was simply out of range (e.g. at 0:14 or 3:20 in the second part).

What kind of moves would you guys have used at situations like at 9:24 in the first part? I'm not sure which move could have been useful there due to the space between us. Staying closer to him is also not always easy, since Jackys frame data and punch range are also very good (look at 0:28 or 5:36). And should I use Kasumi's parries more?

It would be glad if someone would take a look and tell me what he's thinking about this.

 

[Allan Paris]

these videos are to long. it would be nice if they were broken down to 1 or 2 matches per video. 1 match per video is better though. it would help others better to help you out.

 

[tokiopewpew]

Huh? Sorry, since the issue I want to get some advices to is about adaption and predictability, I doubt that people can get the idea of it within one or two matches, that's why I've put some more together. Watching a fight that leasts about 2 or 3 minutes and writing things down based on that are nothing more as hasty conclusions imo, but yeah for those who don't have that much time, I'll may shorten it next time.

 

[Allan Paris]

for those who don't have that much time, I'll may shorten it next time.

 

[jjinkou2]

Soooo ... during the weekend, I was finally able to play some matches with my friend Hitmandu91 again. He's not playing that often, so I guess he had to "warm-up" a bit, considering that our first matches were very equal until he started to completely out-acting me with his Jacky. The more we played, the more I had to scratch my head, wondering what to do better in this match-up.

Were my actions really that predictable? During the last rounds, I started to feel almost helpless, lacking of adequate tools to get him into stun for a juggle, same for tracking moves. Even the strings and variations including 6PK did not work as something I would have been able to get some advantage off, since he mostly interrupted them or was simply out of range (e.g. at 0:14 or 3:20 in the second part).

What kind of moves would you guys have used at situations like at 9:24 in the first part? I'm not sure which move could have been useful there due to the space between us. Staying closer to him is also not always easy, since Jackys frame data and punch range are also very good (look at 0:28 or 5:36). And should I use Kasumi's parries more?

Thanks for sharing these videos. They are necessary long since they show how your opponent adapted to your game plan.

I admit that i watched the fights just to find how someone can win the poke game against Kasumi. So I won't comment on how to improve your game since both of you are ways better than me and i don't know either Kasumi or Jacky.
i'll let that for experts. The shift seems to start at 1:15 in the second vid. You should recollect what was your thought at that moment.

For me i have found the part that is interesting me at 5:21 in the second vid. He completly shut down your pokes, with his counter poke (and some low poke). I noticed also that your poke was only mid or high - you forgot to hit low or 6p2k. I don't know the reason. May be you were exhausted.
His game was different in the first vid 2:31, his pokes were only high or mid.

 

[tokiopewpew]

For me i have found the part that is interesting me at 5:21 in the second vid. He completly shut down your pokes, with his counter poke (and some low poke). I noticed also that your poke was only mid or high - you forgot to hit low or 6p2k. I don't know the reason. May be you were exhausted.
His game was different in the first vid 2:31, his pokes were only high or mid.

6P2K is nothing you can use 24/7 against someone who is aware of lows (in general)
and the follow-up opportunities Kasumi has to gain advantage out of it. It's used as a pressure tool, giving her +8 advantage on hit (fastest SE), but it does not offer any highly efficient follow-up. Best option after it is 1K imo, but although this also gives +2, both moves are pushing the opponent to far away for anything else.

You might get mental advantage out of it because you can decide what you want to do after it (block/space, maybe get in with 66K or 66P or throw), but nothing guaranteed. You can see that at 2:41 (second video). This and the fact that he blocked my 6P2K's (e.g. at 1:59, second video) made me to decide not to use it in the following.

However, the situation at 5:21 is indeed the operative point. Shows that my poking game is still to obvious and lacks of variety. Played some matches with Tenryuga yesterday were he demonstrated how effective it can be if done well (or better as I do) . Some more lows like 2P might have helped indeed because I got counter-hit from Jacky's jab a lot.

So yeah, thanks a lot for evaluating from your point of view, I really appreciate it.

 

[UprisingJC]

0:25 shows you what I hate to see and it's one of the reasons that I think I'm having some problem with using her to put pressure on my opponent.

See how that Leon player dealt with Kasumi's attack:

After blocking her PP or some of her other moves:
1.33P(Instant high crush and it also causes a SDS on NH)
2.Hold her PP6P or PPP by expecting it coming



Sure I know Kasumi has some PP2K to open her up her opponent, but I myself don't really feel like using it that much as it knocks down her opponent on CH and leaves her -16 if blocked.

Still the same issue, I'm still wondering if it's a good idea to throw out PPK or PP6K sometimes when your opponent is not stunned. Always going for PPP/PP6P with PP2K isn't that ideal I guess.

 

[tokiopewpew]

Imo, tick-throwing is a good solution in that case, which you already did. Since Kasumi's 6T, 66T or 5T are very fast, it is hard to react to them when they are used right after P or PP. However, guessing, which ender the opponent is using in a string (or if he free-cancels) is just a kind of the overall guessing game, isn't it?

I would also use PPK more often then. This way, you can also go for PPK2K to open the opponent up. It sometimes works against players that expect mid punches out of PP (but is prone to high crushes like Leon's 33P of course). Another opportunity is to go "Shade style" right for the ankles with some 2K in a row, baiting your opponent to start attacking or holding.

Doing PPP/PP6P or PP2K only isn't ideal indeed, especially if you have someone who is very defensive and aware of these strings.

So yeah, ... dunno what else to say, since you still adapted very good in the match.

 

[Nameless Sama]

I wish I could give anybody some advices but I am not a " master ".

I really play very rare so 1 time in 2 weeks and thats why I will make less progress.

Anyway , here is some matches of my rusty gameplay.

Any Feedback is welcome.

 

[tokiopewpew]

Any Feedback is welcome.

Ok, I list some things that I think you should try to do. I'm currently at work so I can't check any frame data, so please forgive me if I might be incorrect in same cases.

In general, you took a lot of advantage from your opponent's ignorance. Two out of three times they did not throw punish your unsafe stuff or tried to retaliate with attacks, which you blocked. I just mention it because you should know that you could have get punished a lot more if you would have faced an opponent that is aware of Kasumi's frame data (and/or played offline).

I don't know if it was just accidental input (almost looks like), but you better don't toss out 33P in neutral. As a good high crush, you just should use it if you know that your opponent is going for a high attack.

Never(!) use 7K in a neutral situation like you did at 1:17. It is simply too unsafe on block (~ -40 as far as I remember), which means your opponent can do almost everything with you after it. You may have noticed that you got stunned immediately after it missed.

You tend to finish all of Kasumi's strings (like PP2K) and you rarely use string delay (e.g. from 6PK). If you use tick throwing more (P or PP, then 6T or 66T) you will become less predictable.

The amount you try to go for a critical burst is also too high and too obvious (e.g. at 2:35). Kasumi does not have to rely on critical bursts that much, you better go for a launch and a juggle instead. Very nice usage of her guaranteed power blow after 236T from the ceiling and her quick launcher like 8K and 3H+K though.

In the second fight, you retaliate with K3K a lot, which is a good idea against slower characters or those who have parries. Just remember that finishing this string (the 3K) is considerable unsafe on block. Your opponent missed throw punishment there but you may consider to use KK6K or similar for a chance of a launch instead.

In terms of throw punishment, try to use 6T more. It is unbreakable, and comes out very fast (i7, not sure). Using 236T or her high damage throws like the oboro is only recommend if you are sure that your opponent is going for a hold.

That's all so far, I hope I'm not too harshly

 

[Nameless Sama]

Ok, I list some things that I think you should try to do. I'm currently at work so I can't check any frame data, so please forgive me if I might be incorrect in same cases.

HE: In general, you took a lot of advantage from your opponent's ignorance. Two out of three times they did not throw punish your unsafe stuff or tried to retaliate with attacks, which you blocked. I just mention it because you should know that you could have get punished a lot more if you would have faced an opponent that is aware of Kasumi's frame data (and/or played offline).

ME: I know , that she is unsafe and get punnished a lot but I will not give up with her. I have analyzed my gameplay too and I agree waht you said. Yeah I made mistakes and got lucky 2 - 3 times. I am just a casual gamer ^^ .

HE: I don't know if it was just accidental input (almost looks like), but you better don't toss out 33P in neutral. As a good high crush, you just should use it if you know that your opponent is going for a high attack.

ME: Hmm okay. I didnt know that. Knowledge is power ^^.

HE: Never(!) use 7K in a neutral situation like you did at 1:17. It is simply too unsafe on block (~ -40 as far as I remember), which means your opponent can do almost everything with you after it. You may have noticed that you got stunned immediately after it missed.

ME: No , no this was my mistake for press the wrong input. I wanted to make 9P >.<. But I have understand what do you still mean. Thank you.

HE: You tend to finish all of Kasumi's strings (like PP2K) and you rarely use string delay (e.g. from 6PK). If you use tick throwing more (P or PP, then 6T or 66T) you will become less predictable.

ME: I wanted to test PP2K. This was my first time to use it in a real match. Yeah you are right. I agree. I have to throw more and make some different moves to become less predictable.

HE:The amount you try to go for a critical burst is also too high and too obvious (e.g. at 2:35). Kasumi does not have to rely on critical bursts that much, you better go for a launch and a juggle instead. Very nice usage of her guaranteed power blow after 236T from the ceiling and her quick launcher like 8K and 3H+K though.

ME: Okay I got it. These CBs comes from Hayabusa but this is another story. I always forget that Kasumi doesnt need it to much. There are days I use 9K,8K ,236P ,P6P more than CBs.

HE: In the second fight, you retaliate with K3K a lot, which is a good idea against slower characters or those who have parries. Just remember that finishing this string (the 3K) is considerable unsafe on block. Your opponent missed throw punishment there but you may consider to use KK6K or similar for a chance of a launch instead.

ME: I am unsafe after K3K (3K) when the opponent are blocking ? Hmm Okay.I didnt know it. I got lucky because the opponent saw Kasumis prettiness and got confused/stunned to punish me ^^. I will consider it ^^.

HE: In terms of throw punishment, try to use 6T more. It is unbreakable, and comes out very fast (i7, not sure). Using 236T or her high damage throws like the oboro is only recommend if you are sure that your opponent is going for a hold.

ME: I agree. I am just stupid for this game. This is why , what I dont get it. I tell for myself make oboro and or use more 236T instead of using mor 6T for a throw punnish :I

I wish Kasumi would get her old Oboro back ( Body Neck massage )

HE : That's all so far, I hope I'm not too harshly

 

[Gurimmjaw]

Ok so im back using my secondary again which I haven't really used much so could use all the help I can get.

@Tenryuga

 

[Allan Paris]

Getting a game-plan would help you out a lot. Whatever it may be get one and quick. You did a bunch of aimless poking which cost you the match. The player you played against was not that good but since they had a general idea of what they wanted to do with Kokoro you lost.

I know you play with Jann Lee but you have to switch up with what you are doing. Retreating every chance you get with her will get you nowhere. Especially if you don't know how to do it.

 

[Tenryuga]

Ok so im back using my secondary again which I haven't really used much so could use all the help I can get.

@Tenryuga

Allan hit the nail on the head. Kasumi requires a different mindset than Jann Lee. Some suggestions I have for you are to solidify your stun game with her as well as blockstrings. Kasumi at the most basic level is all about fishing for counterhits. This is accomplished through string manipulation and delays with tick throwing here and there. She is also an aggressor so you definitely don't want to back away when you have momentum; you should press your advantage.

Kasumi does not have exceptional tools for keepout or spacing. Her range is small but she can play footsies well enough within the space she can control. Use that to create opportunities to get in during spacing and once you are in STAY in. You should not actively be looking to have spacing wars or keep someone out with her.

 

[Gurimmjaw]

Allan hit the nail on the head. Kasumi requires a different mindset than Jann Lee. Some suggestions I have for you are to solidify your stun game with her as well as blockstrings. Kasumi at the most basic level is all about fishing for counterhits. This is accomplished through string manipulation and delays with tick throwing here and there. She is also an aggressor so you definitely don't want to back away when you have momentum; you should press your advantage.

Kasumi does not have exceptional tools for keepout or spacing. Her range is small but she can play footsies well enough within the space she can control. Use that to create opportunities to get in during spacing and once you are in STAY in. You should not actively be looking to have spacing wars or keep someone out with her.

Yeah im so used to playing Jann Lee, so her style is different from what im used to. I will also make sure to work on some of the stuff with her you mentioned. Though from playing with her I know it bad to stay far away with her especially since im working with a style that im not so used to.

She doesn't have any good tools for keep out or spacing? If she does not does she have anything that allows her to get in? Not sure what exactly good to use to get in but 3P+K seems to be it?

I'll make sure not to back away once im in close. I usually only do that when they are on wake up to avoid getting wake up kicked.

 

[tokiopewpew]

7P is a very good tool to create some space between you and your opponent, but like stated before, you are not supposed to play a spacing game all the time and always move out after grounding your opponent.

3P+K is imo the best tool she has to get into the close range she needs. And who says that you can't just move / run close to your opponent?

While she has good tools to deal with wake-up kicks (33K, 9K and 8P for low crush, her mid parry for mid counter, 9P/9P+K to jump over the opponent), you just need to be careful with attempts for force tech because that's not one her best abilities.

 

[Force_of_Nature]

Here's a sparring match I had with a buddy recently.

 

[tokiopewpew]

Can't really say anything about it, since you spanked him 3-0.
You may position Kasumi in a closer range since you are not playing Ayane and have her spacing tools (Sarah also does not, so it's ok ). As it looks, you also had some input errors, but yeah, dunno what else to mention.