Low holds should not beat standing throws.

[DR2K]

A scrub cap?

Are you losing because someone is spamming low holds?

Yes a hat. Think Tekken item attack.

No.

 

[Drake Aldan]

No.

Then why does it matter?

 

[TakedaZX]

I'd like their recovery frames at least doubled, highs to hit them, or allow throws to put low holds in a special sit down stun. . . and the losing character has to wear a scrub cap for the remainder of the match.

Recovery frames are already more than the other two. As stated before by me and Django, it's not HARD to react with a low throw. 2H+P. It's just that simple.

The REAL problem is you're probably not paying attention to your opponent. Pressure your opponent and feel them out. Stun them a few times, see if they throw out a hold, shake the stun and attack, or they just do nothing.

If they hold, use your lowest frame grab that's reasonable. 4h+P usually works for my Hitomi, it's only i7, ok damage, and it's less frustrating than 33H+P which takes considerably longer to get out, but gets better damage.

If they shake the stun and attack, chances are you're still gunna beat them out of it. If they shake the stun and guard... well... you should go back to option one, except depending on the situation, go for a more damamging throw or another i7/i6. I wouldn't bother with a standing throw since chances are they're mash break it on accident if they meant to retaliate.

If they do nothing, there's room for mix-ups with low strikes and such, and then there's also room for more grabs, and it's not like it's hard to depict when to standing throw vs ducking throw.

Asking for a new sit down stun after grabs is opening a WHOLE different element into just low holds which is far unnecessary. They're not OP, they're just as vulnerable as the rest of the types, if not more.

It was already said, but again, instead of trying to shape the game around a problem you're facing, you should try accepting that it is a problem for YOU and that YOU need to fix your own problem. Others have. Others will. You should too.

 

[TakedaZX]

No.

Lol why does this topic exist?

 

[TheDragonWarrior]

Oh, you mean by saying low throw punishment is inconsistent because the lack of long recovery forces you to guess when to low throw? If you have successfully read your opponent's patterns (as I've suggested), then your "guess" becomes significantly more effective than just throwing it out.

Maybe instead of getting annoyed with certain nuances of a game mechanic and calling out for a change that will reward you for mashing throw against a stunned opponent, how about investing more time and effort into evolving your play around said mechanic where you are then able to do what few others do.

Complain less. Train more.

I'm sorry D I know you helped me out in my new topics, and questions. I have thought about it this is the only right answer. He's right you just gotta keep working hard soon after practice punishing the low holds will come easy. I think most gamers nowadays are too quick to complain. I'm speaking in general not just you D, but gamers are starting to look like spoiled fat kids crying because we can't beat something everyone included.

 

[TakedaZX]

I'm sorry D I know you helped me out in my new topics, and questions. I have thought about it this is the only right answer. He's right you just gotta keep working hard soon after practice punishing the low holds will come easy. I think most gamers nowadays are too quick to complain. I'm speaking in general not just you D, but gamers are starting to look like spoiled fat kids crying because we can't beat something everyone included.

This.

 

[akhi216]

What about jumping holds (Ayane, Lisa, Busa, etc.)?

 

[TakedaZX]

What about jumping holds (Ayane, Lisa, Busa, etc.)?

What? Do you mean aerial grabs like Ryu's 2P+K, 8H+P?

 

[DR2K]

Lol why does this topic exist?

Because I don't think low holds should have more utility than a hold needs to have. It's bad design.

I'm sorry D I know you helped me out in my new topics, and questions. I have thought about it this is the only right answer. He's right you just gotta keep working hard soon after practice punishing the low holds will come easy. I think most gamers nowadays are too quick to complain. I'm speaking in general not just you D, but gamers are starting to look like spoiled fat kids crying because we can't beat something everyone included.

Yeah because this is obviously my first DOA. Read the topic before you make baseless assumptions.

I've already explained how it's prediction based. No one has been able to explain why low holds need to do more than hold lows. That should be their only utility and nothing else.

 

[akhi216]

What? Do you mean aerial grabs like Ryu's 2P+K, 8H+P?

No, I mean Jumping OHs like Lisa's up/forward + .

Edit: I mean jumping throws.

 

[TakedaZX]

Because I don't think low holds should have more utility than a hold needs to have. It's bad design.

If you feel that way I respect that. Most others don't, atleast on FSD. Our advice still stands though.

 

[DR2K]

If you feel that way I respect that. Most others don't, atleast on FSD. Our advice still stands though.

Guess right isn't sound advice or a good arguement. Not a single piece of advice was able to answer why low holds should do more than hold lows.

 

[Django]

the hi throw whiff argument is invalid cause then i can say, "why do low throws whiff on the other 3 holds."
but i wouldn't mind 2-6 more recover frames on low hold when it done while stunned.

 

[TakedaZX]

Guess right isn't sound advice or a good argument. Not a single piece of advice was able to answer why low holds should do more than hold lows.

In all reality the name of the topic is low holds should not beat standing throws. Then you "recommended" and unholdable stun for doing a standing throw on someone who low holding.

I don't know how to explain it but it's really not broken. Gimme a bit, I'm in my class. I'll get back to you on why it should stay as is, since you're seeing things your own way rather than seeing it in the big picture. Maybe someone will beat me too it.

We've explained to you why even though it tech crouches instantly, it's not very viable AS a defensive option every time. brb

 

[Django]

In all reality the name of the topic is low holds should not beat standing throws.

...
if your were gonna throw someone for holding out of stun... your was waiting to see if they hold in the first place and have you have enough time to see which one it was and throw use the right throw.

You're basically saying that if you ever hear a "HUH" during a stun, you just tap throw and get your Hi Counter.

That sounds great, but I don't know if that would be balanced. You think so?

 

[TakedaZX]

Ok so lets ignore the "Why should low holds have more defensive options", and get back to the low hold vs standing throws.

You're basically saying that if you ever hear a "HUH" during a stun, you just tap throw and get your Hi Counter.

That sounds great, but I don't know if that would be balanced. You think so?

So the answer is that standing throws are not the way to go for that. It would make low throws damn near obsolete.

Also consider the fact that low throws do generally more damage than regular standing throws(single direction grabs 4T, 6T, etc), so there is an incentive to get that grab. It'd be ridiculous to make it just standing throws that punish it or make it BOTH grabs no matter what, cause once again, that'd make them damn near obsolete.

Back to your other question now.

Guess right isn't sound advice or a good arguement("argument"). Not a single piece of advice was able to answer why low holds should do more than hold lows.

I said react, not guess. Most people guess to tighten up the timing and give the person less of a chance to counter-react...

Anyway.

Because it works, and if it ain't broke, don't fix it. It's got it's weaknesses. A low throw on Hi-Counter is much higher Damage than a standing throw on high counter(command grabs aside). I don't want a person to get 70+ damage throw on me easily just from doing 33H+P on Hitomi when I low hold. That'd make things ridiculous now wouldn't it?

So yea, low holds can instant tech crouch out of a stun. That's great. Make them eat a mid, on reaction. Now they're stunned even further, hell maybe you even used your sit down stun which is now putting them into a no holding situation, most good stuns are mids anyway. Or you low throw for a good amount of damage and a mental blow to them for trying it.

It's balanced. I'm sure anyone could see that.

 

[Prince Adon]

Guess right isn't sound advice or a good arguement. Not a single piece of advice was able to answer why low holds should do more than hold lows.

I gave you plenty of reason showing how the low counter system is "balanced" and why what you recommanded(topic title) is invalid. You can't simply wish away something in the game just because you don't like the design. The counter system is what DOA is known for and it's what's make the game so much different from other fighters. If it's not unbalanced or anything WHY should they change it? Changing it means having to change other mechanics in the game which would be game changing(or possibly breaking even) . This topic just sounds like a way for you to whine because no matter what anyone say unless they agree with you you'll shrug it off without having a good reason while trying to make everyone else find one. I don't see a reason to change it. If you do go ahead and share because you haven't yet.

 

[DR2K]

the hi throw whiff argument is invalid cause then i can say, "why do low throws whiff on the other 3 holds."
but i wouldn't mind 2-6 more recover frames on low hold when it done while stunned.

They don't evade lows. Try harder. No matter how you spin it low holds do more.

I said react, not guess.

It's already been proven that you can not based on offline tournament footage. It's prediction based. Add more recovery frames and you have an arguement.

It's balanced. I'm sure anyone could see that.

vs

So yea, low holds can instant tech crouch out of a stun. That's great.

Yeah, it's a contradiction. That isn't balanced.

Definition of Balance:

a state of equilibrium or equipoise; equal distribution of weight, amount, etc.

I gave you plenty of reason showing how the low counter system is "balanced" and why what you recommanded(topic title) is invalid. You can't simply wish away something in the game just because you don't like the design. The counter system is what DOA is known for and it's what's make the game so much different from other fighters. If it's not unbalanced or anything WHY should they change it? Changing it means having to change other mechanics in the game which would be game changing(or possibly breaking even) . This topic just sounds like a way for you to whine because no matter what anyone say unless they agree with you you'll shrug it off without having a good reason while trying to make everyone else find one. I don't see a reason to change it. If you do go ahead and share because you haven't yet.

Making low holds just hold lows would mess with the "balance"? How would making low holds the same as the other holds require a rebalance?

Your argument is that low holds can be beaten. Great job guys. Who said otherwise? My problem with them is their tech crouching ability, and nothing in the thread has been able to counter that.

 

[Prince Adon]

Point is there tech crouching ability can be "punished" which is balancing out. Also the fact that it is punished different from standing holds. Your argument was you want low holds to be more "punishable" which is why it would mess up the balance because it is punished enough. Other post will tell you why to the adding that the other holds are also punishable which balance everything out. Or do you still not get it?

 

[TakedaZX]

It's already been proven that you can not based on offline tournament footage. It's prediction based. Add more recovery frames and you have an argument.

Your argument is that low holds can be beaten. Great job guys. Who said otherwise? My problem with them is their tech crouching ability, and nothing in the thread has been able to counter that.

No. See now you're one sided ass view on the situation is pissing me off.

So low holds do more. Well guess what, their best source of punishment IS worth more damage. If you can't live with that, then it's your own problem.

Once again. Fucking learn to adapt kid, and stop crying because it's not easy or you're just gunna be drowning yourself in your own misery when TN doesn't listen to you because you're being unreasonable and won't understand the words coming out of our fingers right now.

Low holds < Big Damage Hi Counter Low Throws. Game Over.