Shimbori explains why they changed break blows on Marie, Honoka and NiCO

[Jyu_Viole_Grace]

I have...we'll say not a whole lot of beef with Marie Rose by herself. She was something different compared to what we'd gotten in the past and her being Swedish and "18" can easily just be a joking jab at what happened with DOA Dimensions in Sweden. But, they missed a big opportunity to use her appearance in the narrative, and play up the fact that she uses her childish appearance and antics to disarm people. As of now, she's just a really childish looking and acting 18-year-old. If you play it straight like that, of course people are going to have doubts.

And then without any hint of irony, just keep introducing "young" characters like her, all 18 and all played straight like it's not an outlier, makes it just awkward. Marie by herself doesn't raise as much of a red flag as the combination of her, Honoka, and NiCO.

Your bringing up Lisa in this context is...suspect. Kind of on a visceral level. What are you doing? lol

But there aren't red flags unless you want to find them on purpose and that's the reason why I'm bringing up Lisa, to make note that premises and consequences are the flaws in these reasonings.

young and 18 = "18". Young and 18, they are 18, then they are "18".

Using this reasoning as "proof" is using a formal fallacy and you can do pretty much the same with other characters applying the same logic with them but of course not everyone will question these characters due their, let's say, bias.

If Team Ninja had ulterior motives to design "18" characters they would put other birthdays just to avoid controversy but looks like controversy is precisely something they aren't afraid of. They even joke around it with Marie birthday (June 6, you know, Sweden national day)

 

[Macca Beam]

imo if people had issues with a relative series affecting mainline before, then NG shouldn't be a suggestion either. doa should strive to be its own thing instead of having overlaps here and there. even beyond the aesthetics now we have ... gauges. why?

 

[werewolfgold]

young and 18 = "18". Young and 18, they are 18, then they are "18".

...Huh?

Using this reasoning as "proof" is using a formal fallacy and you can do pretty much the same with other characters applying the same logic with them but of course not everyone will question these characters due their, let's say, bias.

If Team Ninja had ulterior motives to design "18" characters they would put other birthdays just to avoid controversy but looks like controversy is precisely something they aren't afraid of. They even joke around it with Marie birthday (June 6, you know, Sweden national day)

You're missing part of the picture. They actually, physically (?), can't go lower than 18 for fear of having their game de facto banned in certain countries. It is also likely that they can't get away with putting "N/A" anymore because everyone knows what that means at this point.

Also, if we look at the spread of ages up until this point, the only overlap up to DOA4 was 2 characters, Ryu and Hayate whom are friends. In DOA4, the highest amount of overlap was two per age. And now, we have five characters the same age of 18, when the next highest overlap is still two. Continuously pushing the age of 18 brings attention to itself and comes off as contrived in a way that Lisa happening to be black doesn't match. And this is on top of the 3 characters in question looking "young". Even if they full-throated were like, "these characters are all totally meant to be 18: mind, body, and soul" and it wasn't to subvert anything, it'd still be kind of dumb for the age repetition reason. Why specifically 18 if not to get around rules? Why not all 16? All 17? Why all anything?

So, they kind of painted themselves into a corner. Calling Marie 15, Honoka 17, and NiCO 16 (or whatever number switch around) would come off as more plausible with how the characters look, and seem more organic in not having the strange coincidence of all of them being the same age with no connection to each other. However, that would lead to them getting the banhammer because Dead or Alive is Dead or Alive. Other fighting games have more freedom in that regard. The only other game that would get the same scrutiny would be Mortal Kombat for obvious reasons.

The only way out of this constant scrutiny would have been to design the characters differently. Probably let Marie be Marie and then go in a different direction with Honoka and NiCO. But, that ship has sailed.

It's kind of a dumb thing to harp on. But, part of the reason people are rolling their eyes at "18" is because it's coming off as some sort of crutch. And not something they organically decided upon. Then the other part is that they all look really young. And now TN is confirming that those 3 need "special protection."

imo if people had issues with a relative series affecting mainline before, then NG shouldn't be a suggestion either.

Fair enough. But even if you try to take the NG games out of the equation, DOA4's story still had Helena shoot a woman in the face. As well as the ninjas doing very NG-like things in terms of mowing some people down. You probably can't take it fully out of the equation just like the shadow of DOAX will also be with us for all eternity.

 

[Jyu_Viole_Grace]

...Huh?

It's the reasoning of this whole discussion and that reasoning falls under logical thinking.

You're missing part of the picture. They actually, physically (?), can't go lower than 18 for fear of having their game de facto banned in certain countries. It is also likely that they can't get away with putting "N/A" anymore because everyone knows what that means at this point.
Also, if we look at the spread of ages up until this point, the highest overlap up to DOA5 was 2 characters, Ryu and Hayate whom are friends. And now, we have five characters the same age of 18, when the next highest overlap is still two. Continuously pushing the age of 18 brings attention to itself and comes off as contrived in a way that Lisa happening to be black doesn't match. And this is on top of the 3 characters in question looking "young". Even if they full-throated were like, "these characters are all totally meant to be 18: mind, body, and soul" and it wasn't to subvert anything, it'd still be kind of dumb for the age repetition reason. Why specifically 18 if not to get around rules? Why not all 16? All 17?

So, they kind of painted themselves into a corner. Calling Marie 15, Honoka 17, and NiCO 16 (or whatever number switch around) would come off as more plausible with how the characters look, and seem more organic in not having the strange coincidence of all of them being the same age with no connection to each other. However, that would lead to them getting the banhammer because Dead or Alive is Dead or Alive. Other fighting games have more freedom in that regard. The only other game that would get the same scrutiny would be Mortal Kombat for obvious reasons.

The only way out of this constant scrutiny would have been to design the characters differently. Probably let Marie be Marie and then go in a different direction with Honoka and NiCO. But, that ship has sailed.

Fair enough. But even if you try to take the NG games out of the equation, DOA4's story still had Helena shoot a woman in the face. As well as the ninjas doing very NG-like things in terms of mowing some people down. You probably can't take it fully out of the equation just like the shadow of DOAX will also be with us for all eternity.

I'm not missing it, what I don't see is why they should want to put these characters as minors as a default thing just because some people think they are minors. To me, being 29 and looking like Eliot, these characters don't look 15, 16 or 17 but I can see why they aren't 19, 21 or 30 looking at their marketing history. Maybe you think they are in a corner in this situation but what I see is they are just where they want to be.

Also, I don't see why Marie Rose should be the only character with that design in the game, this is like basically saying that grown up characters with a different body structure is something wrong. And here I'm counting NiCO, because I don't even understand the logic behind Honoka being pointed as "loli" or being in the same boat that these two, she isn't more loli than Gen Fu under a logic use of this term.

 

[Xhominid The Demon Within]

this is a point i've complained about time and time again. it looks like they came up with something to fill the gaping rift between the more on-the-nose brand of tough talk of ayane, christie and to some extent bass and leon, and the hordes of nice, honest, determined, sometimes apologetic guys and gals that's the rest. "I fight!" no shit, with the way you've been waving that I'M A FIGHTER banner around, i'm sure everybody could already tell what it is that you do. there's at least 15 of you in every game.

but they didn't fully commit to the idea. half of the time you have things like the taunts, the fake lose and 4P+K・4, the other half of the time you have another flower that does random "cute" things just like h*tomi. making it a servant character was also a very odd move as servants are obedient, loyal and meek (i'll at least give credit to the "are you serious?" gaze when hayate was allowed through the door, but i slept through the rest).

I'm not really a fan of the "they can't be cute or have their own quirks and be serious fighters" schtick as it comes off not only trying way too hard, it also further tears any character away from the fighters at large.

As much as I find some of what they gave Johnny Cage in MK11 to be juvenile as shit, I WOULD NOT take it away from Johnny simply because they want to make it "super cereal" because it would take away from his character at large.
Hitomi doesn't need to be more serious because "I'm A Fighter", that's honestly dumb, what they should do is simply give her times where she does get more serious. It's the same thing with Marie Rose in having her be temperamental by having her react poorly to actually being called a kid like she does in DOAXVV and etc.

I'm not sure if you think being more serious means no jokes, no fooling around ever... because you do realize people MOCK when series try to get more serious by doing that exact thing right?

 

[Macca Beam]

er pretty sure i threw a jab at characters that are too serious, tryhard, stoic, or filled with cookie cutter "fighter" traits as not only is there no shortage of these around, it's all bland and default as fuck.

hitomi is well-balanced. i brought her up in the comparison because at times it seems marie is also being legitimately innocent, which is inconsistent with many of her other antics. or you can say she was still pretending/acting and forget i said anything. but in that case, why would she react poorly to being called something she consciously tries to imitate all the time? (by the way, this temperament is a terribly overdone cliche and among some that should never be brought up in anything again)

so my issue is nothing adds up perfectly. it seems they couldn't make up their mind on whether she should be innocent or cunning, and just juggled both aspects at the same time. now this is not inherently bad, as that's how you make more-than-one-dimensional characters, as long as the aspects aren't on opposite sides of the spectrum which i feel is the case here

 

[werewolfgold]

I'm not missing it, what I don't see is why they should want to put these characters as minors as a default thing just because some people think they are minors.

That's the thing. I think Team Ninja themselves think of them as minors. You think they're sitting back there in meetings saying "We need to show our support for adults who get mistaken as kids all the time"? I'd think not. I think they're just going in with the mindset of "No matter what we do, we have to say they're 18." I don't know for sure. But, it's not baseless conjecture. I'm looking at TN's history and other Japanese media employing the same archetypes. The people they're pandering to with these designs probably would prefer it if they weren't 18. But, TN insists.

They keep harping on this "18" "1018" "18" "18" thing, which brings attention to how they got smacked for underage characters, while also saying that they want them to look as young as possible. Especially with Marie Rose and Honoka, who don't only look young, but act ridiculously immature. This isn't some kind of dig on differing body types or young-looking people in real-life on my part. It's a dig at TN trying to have their cake and eat it, too.

Now, NiCO doesn't have a child-like personality, despite her stature. But, apparently, TN couldn't bear (or DOAX fans couldn't bear) to have her shown getting hurt like the "non-controversial" characters either. So, are they adults or not? Why would there be a need to exempt them from violence? When it came to the "adult" part that isn't just a sticker on the label, they choked. They can't choke.

Honoka is in the same boat as Marie and NiCO because they all have a similar face, they all are under 5 feet tall, and they are all 18. Like I said, if they had made them more distinct from each other, it'd be less eye-roll worthy. And supposedly "oppai loli" is a term for someone who looks like a child, yet they just gave her huge boobs. But, whatever. I don't really use it and I don't even think of Honoka as a loli. It's enough for me to just call her MOE GARBAGE. lol

 

[Macca Beam]

close. oppai loli is a term for a character that would have the proportions of a child/petite female otherwise, but here are two giant melons out of nowhere that the frail frame absolutely cannot support because it's so randumb haha can you even imagine that working xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD - the author

so yes, it's a good idea to not use it because honoka is a shortstack if anything with all that extra fat.

and basically, if you told me they were minors OR adults that look like minors, sure, i'll take it, either way is plausible. the question is, did team ninja ever explicitly say they are adults, aside from an obligatory number on the label just to get sweden off their back? if they intended for a third group to exist to cover all the bases, then what they're doing makes sense.

and frankly, i can't give a non-subjective explanation why they aren't allowed to do it. honkers' are just some in the very long line of attitudes/demeanors i don't digest well, a lot of which this series skillfully include, and adjusting superficial features like age or stature around won't change anything. but that's just me, not some kind of social/moral problem. "some audience is being pandered to", this is the raison d'être of all designs. "they have a similar face", now this could be the one, but not before all the other offenders are put under the light as well.

 

[Jyu_Viole_Grace]

That's the thing. I think Team Ninja themselves think of them as minors.

As you said later, this is you your conjeture, but let's analyze your reasons point by point.

You think they're sitting back there in meetings saying "We need to show our support for adults who get mistaken as kids all the time"? I'd think not. I think they're just going in with the mindset of "No matter what we do, we have to say they're 18." I don't know for sure. But, it's not baseless conjecture.

What we know is if someone want to think these characters are minors, they willl reach that conclusion whatever Team Ninja does.

I'm looking at TN's history and other Japanese media employing the same archetypes. The people they're pandering to with these designs probably would prefer it if they weren't 18. But, TN insists.

This is just a baseless accusation. To my eyes the only ones that would prefer these characters being minors are the ones being offended because that way they will have more motives to be offended.

You know, I also can play to point with my finger.

They keep harping on this "18" "1018" "18" "18" thing,

And that number can be interpreted as they making fun of western people wanting to desperately find reasons to accuse these characters as minors.

which brings attention to how they got smacked for underage characters,

You are connecting two different situations. They changed it because Japanese players asked for it. This falls under the "if you don't like something just let us know about it and we will change it" umbrella.

The same way they implemented close ups because they thought would be cool for western fans.

while also saying that they want them to look as young as possible.

They specifically said this about NiCO, something that means nothing because looking young isn't connected with being a minor. Age is just a human metric.

Especially with Marie Rose and Honoka, who don't only look young, but act ridiculously immature.

This isn't true in Marie Rose case because she doesn't always act inmature.

This isn't some kind of dig on differing body types or young-looking people in real-life on my part. It's a dig at TN trying to have their cake and eat it, too.

But it's like we will see next.

Now, NiCO doesn't have a child-like personality, despite her stature. But, apparently, TN couldn't bear (or DOAX fans couldn't bear) to have her shown getting hurt like the "non-controversial" characters either.

It's a Japanese fans thing, not Team Ninja thing.

So, are they adults or not? Why would there be a need to exempt them from violence? When it came to the "adult" part that isn't just a sticker on the label, they choked. They can't choke.

Again, Team Ninja answered to their Japanese players feedback.

They not being adamant to their initial design choices due wanting money from fans has nothing to do with these characters core designs.

What people see =/= what it is.

Honoka is in the same boat as Marie and NiCO because they all have a similar face

Oh, so now we have a new condition to be loli, having a similar face to other people. Interesting, let's see.

, they all are under 5 feet tall, and they are all 18. Like I said, if they had made them more distinct from each other, it'd be less eye-roll worthy. And supposedly "oppai loli" is a term for someone who looks like a child, yet they just gave her huge boobs. But, whatever. I don't really use it and I don't even think of Honoka as a loli. It's enough for me to just call her MOE GARBAGE. lol

I see. So, if I say "male-loli", just to meet the conditions I want just in oder to reach the conclusion I want, then it's a valid side-term. Non sequitur at's finest.

Also, aren't they distinct from each other?, you pointed some differences between them already.

Marie Rose: Looks young and act inmmature (sometimes)

Honoka: Only her face looks young (not her body) and act inmmature.

NiCO: Looks young but don't act inmmature.

You only can connect them following the "they look young" premise, which leads us again to non sequitur.

 

[NewWestFan]

Ah good. This debate again. Wouldn't be FSD without this at least once a month lmao.

Marie Rose: Flat chested, short, badass, female character with (ALWAYS) twintails hair style trope. CAN be called Loli. It's the trope they're after.
Honoka: Oppai Otaku teen school girl with massive hidden power (Now revealed to be Raidou bloodline like Ayane) that just wants to be fun trope. Can't be called Loli in the common stereotype/trope sense.
NiCO: Stoic mean spirited young nerdy girl with cool powers that looks down on everyone and wears glasses trope. Again can't be called Loli in the common stereotype/trope sense.

Of course the Japanese audience doesn't want any of these three getting close-up pulverized. The casual Japanese fandom for this game practically views this series as a Harem Anime, especially if you take into account the Extreme games. I hate Honoka as much as the next person but it doesn't really bug me that I can't get a zoom in of Tina's hips breaking her jaw (Doubly so since I'm more likely to use my meter for the BB Cancel option)

 

[Juihau]

This is just a baseless accusation. To my eyes the only ones that would prefer these characters being minors are the ones being offended because that way they will have more motives to be offended.

I mean, c'mon, let's be real for a second here, alright? What's more likely?

A: Marie was a deliberate, conscious effort to be inclusive to women who happen to be petite and have major babyface.

B: They made a young girl character and then remembered she had to be at least 18 to meet various international standards.

Ultimately, the fact is that Marie, Honoka and NiCO were designed to look like young girls. Yes, there are adult women who look similar in real life, but the difference is that they weren't specifically designed to look that way with the explicit intent of getting people who are into their designs to spend money on them.

Also, it's no baseless accusation to say that the sexualization of minors is a very common thing in Japan. It's present in almost every anime and manga you can think of to varying degrees. Like, let's not ignore that Sword Art Online, for example, made a point of showing every one of its 12 to 17 year old heroines in their underwear at least once.

 

[werewolfgold]

This is just a baseless accusation.

No, it's not. As I've already said, the trend of these characters very rarely has anyone actually being 18. A consequence of anime rarely leaving middle or high school. It's just common practice at this point. You can say that TN is trying to be original, but their big idea of originality also involves introducing a busty schoolgirl named Honoka who has the exact same hairstyle as another decently-known moe anime character named Honoka. And also NiCO swiping the aesthetic of another popular anime character with blue hair and a pink pin. And would you look at that, Love Live Honoka and Rem from Re:Zero aren't 18 either.

And it's not like TN had a problem with characters younger than 18 before they got slapped by Sweden. I've already copped to it being conjecture. But, it's not baseless. What exactly are you using to bolster your accusations, hm?

And that number can be interpreted as they having fun of western people wanting to desperately find reasons to accuse these characters as minors.

It's not having that effect. It's just making them look stupid. There's no "desperation" involved in thinking that the trio need to have their ID's checked as it were. It's just that people who have seen these archetypes 100 times before know what the conventions are. And they have a general sense of what 18-year-olds look and act like. It was a foregone conclusion that introducing characters that look and act younger than the 18-year-olds already established would get pegged as "18".

They changed it because Japanese players asked for it. This falls under the "if you don't like something just let us know about it and we will change it" umbrella.

The situation was already rectified by the option to turn it off. Implemented in the game since at least September of last year. They don't have to listen to unreasonable demands if they don't want to. And think about why fans would've had that reaction to those characters specifically. There must be something about them.

They specifically said this about NiCO, something that means nothing because looking young isn't connected with being a minor.

In drawing comparison to Marie, it's already a comment on how young Marie looks. And Marie's entire shtick doesn't work unless you possibly think she's a minor. They weren't going for a 35-year-old that looks 20. They created an 18-year-old that looks and acts younger than that. Younger than 18 would be a minor. And NiCO was going to follow the same gameplan before they decided they were better off making her a nerd with chunibyo poses because DOAXVV saw fit to add more super moe kawaii 18-year-olds. Heaven forbid they actually did decide to port them over, too. We'd have like 7. lol

This isn't true in Marie Rose case because she doesn't always act inmature.

That's a funny joke. Everything down to her manner of speaking was crafted to be child-like.

Oh, so now we have a new condition to be loli, having a similar face to other people. Interesting, let's see.

I see. So, if I say "male-loli", just to meet the conditions I want just in oder to reach the conclusion I want, then it's a valid side-term. Non sequitur at's finest.

You're being dumb on purpose. Cut it out. These terms were not disingenuously created for an agenda. They were created to describe existing character trends. And a term for male-loli already exists. It's called a shota. lol

Also, aren't they distinct from each other?, you pointed some differences between them already.

Obviously, Honoka and NiCO are not Phase-4 clones of Marie. No one is seriously claiming that. But, you seem to have already acknowledged that they were created as a response to riff off of Marie's popularity. They must be close enough to Marie for that connection to be apparent to pretty much everyone. They are all outliers in a similar way. You can take any one specific item by itself and write it off as coincidence ("they all look young"). But, you can't do that. You have to look at all the pieces together. You can plausibly have a barely 18 character that looks like a kid. But, you can't just keep adding them over and over again and then act shocked and appalled that people think you have ulterior motives.

 

[Macca Beam]

i think outside of the face (singular) there are plenty of easy distinctions to make
- most notable is the build.
- the demeanors. one has two modes she constantly jumps between, one is just in the air the whole time, and one is a chuuni autist.
- the hair, as much as that blue makes me want to claw my eyes out.

the fact that honkers and nico were made to ride marie's popularity couldn't be more obvious. what i'm curious about is why wasn't there any analysis or meltdown when the college girls, post-college girls and the medium-sized males had the same height and build within their respective groups.

The casual Japanese fandom for this game practically views this series as a Harem Anime

oh casual audiences are the same everywhere
I LOVE MY CUTE WIFE AYANEEEEE AND HONKER'S HONKERS

I mean, c'mon, let's be real for a second here, alright? What's more likely?

my money is on neither. it was a deliberate, conscious effort to introduce a new female build to dead or alive, obviously appeal to the demographic that likes such builds, and dab on sweden for the doa dimensions incident.

and unless someone was denying that, there isn't a single (uno, ichi) design in anything that wasn't made for the explicit intent of getting the attention/money of people who are into that design. applies to things like vehicles and structures/interiors as well.

Everything down to her manner of speaking was crafted to be child-like.

do you mean the intonation and the occasional first-person? most of the lines look like average teenager speech to me. children usually screw up their sentence structures more, and a convention i've noticed in jp writing is the sentences are made almost entirely out of kana
no idea what it's like in x3/vv though

Spoiler

 

[Project Bokuho]

 

[KwonJigglypuff]

This conversation again ? ^^

 

[Jyu_Viole_Grace]

I mean, c'mon, let's be real for a second here, alright? What's more likely?

A: Marie was a deliberate, conscious effort to be inclusive to women who happen to be petite and have major babyface.

B: They made a young girl character and then remembered she had to be at least 18 to meet various international standards.

Ultimately, the fact is that Marie, Honoka and NiCO were designed to look like young girls. Yes, there are adult women who look similar in real life, but the difference is that they weren't specifically designed to look that way with the explicit intent of getting people who are into their designs to spend money on them.

Also, it's no baseless accusation to say that the sexualization of minors is a very common thing in Japan. It's present in almost every anime and manga you can think of to varying degrees. Like, let's not ignore that Sword Art Online, for example, made a point of showing every one of its 12 to 17 year old heroines in their underwear at least once.

Let's be real then and let's use some logic:

C: You don't have to be some kind of genius to try a new kind of female character in this franchise. They designed a character completely opposite to all other DOA existing girls, a petite and flat chested girl. It worked and people asked for more.

The fact is that "young girls" is a baseless affirmation if you are trying to go the "minors" rute unless you can show us actual proofs about it.

And yes, accusing Marie, Honoka and NiCO fans of wanting these characters being minors is a baseless accusation. There are people in this forum that actually like these characters, if you are trying to keep your point then you are pointing at them and you know, if I were them, you should have to prove this in a court, just to show people that pointing random accusations isn't always free and people should think twice about what they are saying.

No, it's not. As I've already said, the trend of these characters very rarely has anyone actually being 18. A consequence of anime rarely leaving middle or high school. It's just common practice at this point. You can say that TN is trying to be original, but their big idea of originality also involves introducing a busty schoolgirl named Honoka who has the exact same hairstyle as another decently-known moe anime character named Honoka. And also NiCO swiping the aesthetic of another popular anime character with blue hair and a pink pin. And would you look at that, Love Live Honoka and Rem from Re:Zero aren't 18 either.

And it's not like TN had a problem with characters younger than 18 before they got slapped by Sweden. I've already copped to it being conjecture. But, it's not baseless. What exactly are you using to bolster your accusations, hm?.

What you have said in that exact quote is:

The people they're pandering to with these designs probably would prefer it if they weren't 18. But, TN insists.

Here you are pointing at people that like these characters and you are accusing them of prefering minors. There are people in this forum and in other forums that like these characters. So I will ask you this, are you willing to prove it?.

About coincidences with other Anime characters. Or you are acussing them of plagiarism, just changing names and ages or you maybe could consider that, with the absurd amount of characters out there, can exist coincidences like these.

If you are a fan of Final Fantasy you will probably know Lighting's (FF XIII) sister, Serah Farron.

Some people found that she actually looks ... almost identical to a hentai character, Kurumi Imari from Bible Black. Both of them are young, both of them have a similar hair style and hair color, both of them wear high school clothes with almost identical colours so ... Did Square Enix just want to push a hentai character in Final Fantasy?.

It's not having that effect. It's just making them look stupid. There's no "desperation" involved in thinking that the trio need to have their ID's checked as it were. It's just that people who have seen these archetypes 100 times before know what the conventions are. And they have a general sense of what 18-year-olds look and act like. It was a foregone conclusion that introducing characters that look and act younger than the 18-year-olds already established would get pegged as "18".

It's having that effect in people like me, that have a really fun time reading all these mental gymnastics to "prove" their claims. And people that claim that both Marie Rose, Honoka and NiCO are the same character archetype probably don't have a clue about scripts.

The situation was already rectified by the option to turn it off. Implemented in the game since at least September of last year. They don't have to listen to unreasonable demands if they don't want to. And think about why fans would've had that reaction to those characters specifically. There must be something about them.

We agree that changing the camera for everyone is just dumb, that's why I opened this thread. Where we don't agree is this has something to do with these characters being minors in their minds.

In drawing comparison to Marie, it's already a comment on how young Marie looks. And Marie's entire shtick doesn't work unless you possibly think she's a minor. They weren't going for a 35-year-old that looks 20. They created an 18-year-old that looks and acts younger than that. Younger than 18 would be a minor. And NiCO was going to follow the same gameplan before they decided they were better off making her a nerd with chunibyo poses because DOAXVV saw fit to add more super moe kawaii 18-year-olds. Heaven forbid they actually did decide to port them over, too. We'd have like 7. lol

Where you keep surprising me is you still keep claiming that someone at certatin age should look in a certain way. Marie isn't a 18 year old girl that looks like a "18" year old girl, she's a 18 year old girl that look like a 18 year old girl. That's a fact.

You don't have to be a genius or some kind of super progressive artist to draw it.

Marie inclusion in DOA was a risk move, she could have failed because until then, everyone just expected "busty girls", whatever their age or origin are. She is completely opposite to all other previous female characters, that's why her body is like that.

That's a funny joke. Everything down to her manner of speaking was crafted to be child-like.

Not everything, you can see her initial description hinting a "dark side" and some intros and win poses with a serious talk. She being disappointing in DOA 6 story mode is another thing (like the whole story mode imo).

You're being dumb on purpose. Cut it out. These terms were not disingenuously created for an agenda. They were created to describe existing character trends. And a term for male-loli already exists. It's called a shota. lol

Oppai loli is a term used to make fun of these characters, just like others similar terms. They are not used to objectively describe nothing since the whole purpose is the over-exaggeration.

And yes, I was being sarcastic with male-loli, since it makes so much sense as oppai-loli.

Obviously, Honoka and NiCO are not Phase-4 clones of Marie. No one is seriously claiming that. But, you seem to have already acknowledged that they were created as a response to riff off of Marie's popularity. They must be close enough to Marie for that connection to be apparent to pretty much everyone. They are all outliers in a similar way. You can take any one specific item by itself and write it off as coincidence ("they all look young"). But, you can't do that. You have to look at all the pieces together. You can plausibly have a barely 18 character that looks like a kid. But, you can't just keep adding them over and over again and then act shocked and appalled that people think you have ulterior motives.

What I have been saying is that NiCO is a answer to Marie Rose success and like I said several messages ago, her success is due being different to all classic female characters, not being a "18" character. Even Nyotengu is actually more popular than most of the older female characters and her appeal isn't being "18" is being a "yokai girl" with a really sensual personality.

 

[Juihau]

C: You don't have to be some kind of genius to try a new kind of female character in this franchise. They designed a character completely opposite to all other DOA existing girls, a petite and flat chested girl. It worked and people asked for more.

If their intention was for her to look like an adult, they wouldn't have had her pretend to cry when she loses. Her personality, in itself, is indicative that she's meant to look like a young girl.

About coincidences with other Anime characters. Or you are acussing them of plagiarism, just changing names and ages or you maybe could consider that, with the absurd amount of characters out there, can exist coincidences like these.

I ain't gonna say anything as heavy as plagiarism, but...

Spoiler: Once is an accident

The one on the left is explicitly 11 years old, by the way.

Spoiler: Twice is a coincidence

They even have their respective logos on the back.

Spoiler: Thrice, there's clearly been some influence at this point

Like, I wouldn't go so far as to say "these are the same characters with the serial numbers filed off," but it's pretty obvious they saw what was popular and incorporated elements of it into their characters.

As an aside, "people this character is meant to pander to," and "people who like this character" are two different groups. There's a very large overlap, yes, but being part of one does not inherently mean you're part of the other.

 

[Ninoasker]

girl this is tiring can we put an end to this already? who tf cares about them getting punched in a close-up or not, what I care about is the fact that they went all in to change this but won’t address the problems that western players are pointing at them (and if they do, they do it in the most amateur way like the whole navel thing where we’ve been left with characters with 2 navels).

“HURRR BUT WE R NOT DA PRIMARY PUBLIC, WE AIN’T JAPANEEZE!” yea listen, I could take this excuse as valid for games like Xtreme where they directly didn’t ship it overseas. But the main DOA franchise is being sold AND MARKETED worldwide, and 6 was even their attempt to join EVO. Thus, I think they need to have us western customers in mind too and try to change the problems we are reporting with such a quickness and passion as the one they had when they ran to their office to remove the anime trio’s BB camera after their Japanese otakus went all ape shit at them because their waifus were compatible with the whole close up camera option the DEVS promoted right in the first trailer and shown getting bruised pretty detailed in a fighting game

 

[Jyu_Viole_Grace]

If their intention was for her to look like an adult, they wouldn't have had her pretend to cry when she loses. Her personality, in itself, is indicative that she's meant to look like a young girl.

And what is "being an adult"?, maybe being like Tina?, a even more immature character or Brad, being someone that is just taking adventage of Eliot. It's like being an adult is proof of being a super serious human being.

In other hand, here we have NiCO but ey, she being serious is not a problem to keep pointing her as minor.

I ain't gonna say anything as heavy as plagiarism, but...

Spoiler: Once is an accident

The one on the left is explicitly 11 years old, by the way.

Spoiler: Twice is a coincidence

They even have their respective logos on the back.

Spoiler: Thrice, there's clearly been some influence at this point

Like, I wouldn't go so far as to say "these are the same characters with the serial numbers filed off," but it's pretty obvious they saw what was popular and incorporated elements of it into their characters.

As an aside, "people this character is meant to pander to," and "people who like this character" are two different groups. There's a very large overlap, yes, but being part of one does not inherently mean you're part of the other.

So a bunch of costumes being "similar" (it's not like a bra and shorts is something that you can find in a good bunch of characters, obviously voluptuous characters) and NiCO being blue haired is enough to claim they for sure had to look to these characters to desing something popular.

Then we can confirm as true the claims of Serah being a clone of a Bible Black character. They are similar = they couldn't design Serah without watching Bible Black.

As an aside, "people this character is meant to pander to," and "people who like this character" are two different groups. There's a very large overlap, yes, but being part of one does not inherently mean you're part of the other.

That sounds just like dodging the issue to avoid a direct discussion with people that can actually reply here and just throw accusations to people that can't defend for themselves.

 

[Macca Beam]

we know nothing about the architecture/codebase of the game, bugs (especially the ones that cannot be reliably reproduced) can take any arbitrary amount of time to unearth and fix, and it's common for fixes to be released in a batch instead of individually.

why are all the other changes and bugfixes that happened between the beta builds and release suddenly invalidated because you have beef with one change (which, according to my educated guess, only involves adding conditionals to dynamically toggle between two types of camera depending on which actors are involved and should require neither passion, speed nor running around the office to accomplish)?
how do we know they aren't currently working on the problems reported? how does a consumer determine how long a problem should take to fix from the armchair in their house?

i don't see the japanese fans going apeshit beyond one feedback sentence in the interview, i don't see any heated discussions of it in their communities. five forum pages with enough text to publish as a book, however, is something i could safely call "going apeshit". why do only western fans do this?