The Official Dead or Alive 5 Tier List with Discussion thread

Zeo

Well-Known Member
Jann Lee, Lei Fang and Gen Fu are all extremely linear and that didn't stop them being top tier. (I say didn't as I haven't Crippled is a very strong word for a character as good as Kokoro. She is still able to by pass the stun game easily, her damage output is still extremely high, she's still really safe. If linearity is such a problem post patch then Jann, Lei and Fu are fucked too, and I don't see that being the case.
Kokoro has an i10 jab and an i12 mid punch, with that she can compete with every character in the game speed wise. I'd kill for an i10 jab, just so I had one attack that could beat an i11 mid punch..
The thing about that is that linear is Kokoro is much more easily sidestepped than the above characters especially Jann and Lei and where as you're more inclined to block and respect the latter 2's options (More tracking moves, fear of OH's, etc.) in most cases SS'ing Kokoro especially after the patch completely stops her offense.

Sidestepping was a weakness for each of these characters but it was the most glaring weakness for Kokoro, now we put that weakness on steroids. Of course it will effect her worse than the others.

What about the new and effective side step? Characters like Kokoro and Akira are very linear, this wasn't as big of a deal to them before because sidestep wasn't as reliable, but that isn't the case anymore.

A lot of characters haven't even been broken down yet, and probably won't be until the patch hits the other half of the userbase. Also look into the system changes to delve deeper into a characters changes and placement.
Actually the buff to SS doesn't affect Akira nearly as much as it effects his ball & chain. Akira's biggest weakness was always sidestepping from the start as he's not a string based character. Unless he used a tracking move if he threw out an attack and it was sidestepped he was pretty much screwed. Kokoro on the other hand had the freedom to snuff SS'ing with her various strings. With the buff to SS'ing Kokoro gets put in the same boat as her secret lover where as virtually nothing changes for Akira since sidestepping already stopped his offense before.

That's basically why I think Akira moved up and Kokoro moved down. Kokoro's will have to play much more careful and conservative now, where as Akira's can basically just keep doing what they've been doing already and it'll work even more than it did before because of his ridiculous damage buffs.
 

Omegan Eckhart

Well-Known Member
Show me a vid of a competent Kokoro player applying the level of offense she is known for vs a competent Kasumi or Christie where she isn't getting counter-blown every 10-15 seconds or so.
The ONLY time that i1 difference in attack speed matters is at the start of the round and if the opponent gets predictable she has the tools to shut them down for it, some characters don't even have that.

The only attacks Christie and Kasumi have up on Kokoro speed wise is P i9 and 6P i11, these attacks have lousy range and are only i1 faster than Kokoro's options. Like I said unless both players are mashing out inputs at the start of the round then i1 doesn't mean shit.

Kokoro's ranged tools are better than either of theirs so she should have no problem finding an opportunity to get an attack out before they do. I play Helena, I have an i11 jab and the worst i12 mid punch in the game and I can make use of my fastest pokes against Kasumi and Christie so Kokoro has no excuse.

On the odd occasion I play Kokoro I love how easy it is to shut people down with her pokes.
 

NightAntilli

Well-Known Member
Jann Lee, Lei Fang and Gen Fu are all extremely linear and that didn't stop them being top tier. (I say didn't as I haven't Crippled is a very strong word for a character as good as Kokoro. She is still able to by pass the stun game easily, her damage output is still extremely high, she's still really safe. If linearity is such a problem post patch then Jann, Lei and Fu are fucked too, and I don't see that being the case.
Jann Lee's linearity is highly exaggerated in this community. He's one of the characters that has circular attacks at all heights, and can use them without any prior move in a string. And one of his mid tracking moves can even cause a limbo stun. I would not consider Jann Lee that linear at all. He has more than enough proper circular moves to deal with sidestepping opponents. Where this popular delusion came from that Jann Lee is very linear is beyond me. It seems people believe it to be true just by repetition. You don't need a whole plethora of tracking moves to deal with side steppers. If you have two while at least one is a stand-alone mid, you're already set. Not to mention he has OHs and stuff.

Leifang is more linear than Jann Lee. She only has high tracking moves that can be used on the fly. Her mid tracking moves are all moves during strings. So she has to guess a lot between someone sidestepping or someone doing a crushing move or low when attacking since the prior moves are high. Her only low tracking move is from 4KKK and its variants, of which the final K is a crappy move. Jann Lee does not have that issue because he has immediate mid trackers.

Gen Fu is also more linear than Jann Lee, and more linear than Lei-fang. However, he has the advantage that his main tracking moves are low. With his parries, people will not be attacking mid a lot, so he is more free to use his 1P to track sidestepping opponents. Even highs are hard to attack him with, since he can easily crush them with multiple moves. Gen Fu is top tier because even though he's linear, he's easy to use and easily gets great stuns in with his fast mid P, or his crushing moves, and most importantly, he himself is very hard to stun due to his parry and crushes.

Kokoro has an i10 jab and an i12 mid punch, with that she can compete with every character in the game speed wise. I'd kill for an i10 jab, just so I had one attack that could beat an i11 mid punch.
She might have an i10 jab and an i12 mid punch, but that speed alone does not make up for her inability to defend herself. How many times are you actually at a certain advantage or disadvantage, that the best option is an i10 jab? That's probably only at the start of the match, and you don't want to start attacking with your i10 jab to outdo any character that's as fast or faster, because the risk of being crushed or hit in the face is too high. Most of the time you'll be at a certain disadvantage where an i10 jab would lose anyway, or you're at an advantage where 13i stuff will beat out the opponent. You don't really need an i10 jab when you can crush mids with your character. Otherwise, just learn to bait the mid punch and hold it.

Kokoro is not in the same league as the three characters above. This seems to be another thing that people seem to believe due to repetition, probably due to early reports saying she's a monster or something. She does not have the movement and spacing speed of Jann Lee. She does not have the ability to crush like Gen Fu. She does not have parries like Leifang. She lacks OH which Jann Lee and Leifang have, her few circular attacks are high while all three of them have better options, she lacks proper low crushes which all three of them have. She's basically a purely offensive character with a very crappy defense. And above all that, she's the most linear character in the game (along with Akira). Not only will she have trouble regaining momentum after getting hit once, it's fairly easy to stop her in her tracks before she lands a stun in, if you know how.

As in all prior games, Kokoro's lows suck. She definitely needed the 6P+K buff in v1.03. Aside from that move (which lacks the stun in v1.02), she has two main things to break through people's defenses while attacking, which are the mid string grabs, and her unshu stance. The mid string grabs become predictable if used too much and the follow-ups can all be held, so it's a guess two times in a row, just to get a stun in. Her unshu stance is the same story. It can be interrupted easily since it doesn't do shit other than look flashy, and even then, all the follow-ups can be sidestepped, held/parried or even fuzzy guarded. These are the only two moves that reliably give you advantage, without resorting to snail speed attacks like P+K and 214P. These strings that allow her to go into her grabs and unshu stance have to be mixed in with her normal attack strings to have any sort of effect too. Without using those two options, you just have to hope the opponent stops blocking at the wrong time so you can hit them with something. Before that happens, you've probably already been sidestepped and counter attacked, and with the lack of moves that crush, you're in trouble.

Despite her great tools when she lands something, getting inside your opponent is the tricky part with her, and her crappy defense and linearity makes her very vulnerable while trying to do that. It definitely makes her at least one tier lower than the three above. You have to mix up quite a bit to land something. The good thing is that when you do, the mix-up requirement when the opponent is in stun becomes minimal since she launches and bursts easily, and her damage is respectable in those cases.

And that's without taking the bad matchups into account. Or maybe I simply don't know how to play DOA5 Kokoro...

Honestly I don't think people can be completely objective about their characters, I mean Jann Lee players still deny him ever being top tier and say he is mid tier at best. Perhaps I'm the same way with Helena I dunno.
Yeah. People love to inflate their egos, and pretending that their characters are worse than they actually are is a nice way for them to do that.
 

Omegan Eckhart

Well-Known Member
She might have an i10 jab and an i12 mid punch, but that speed alone does not make up for her inability to defend herself. How many times are you actually at a certain advantage or disadvantage, that the best option is an i10 jab? That's probably only at the start of the match, and you don't want to start attacking with your i10 jab to outdo any character that's as fast or faster, because the risk of being crushed or hit in the face is too high. Most of the time you'll be at a certain disadvantage where an i10 jab would lose anyway, or you're at an advantage where 13i stuff will beat out the opponent. You don't really need an i10 jab when you can crush mids with your character. Otherwise, just learn to bait the mid punch and hold it.
Yeah. People love to inflate their egos, and pretending that their characters are worse than they actually are is a nice way for them to do that.
I was talking about her jab and mid punch speed in reference to someone saying she can't compete with Kasumi and Christie. 99.9% of attacks in DOA5 leave the attacker at disadvantage so finding an opportunity to make use of her P and 6P against those two isn't difficult at all. How often are both players going to hit P or 6P at the same time? Never outside of the start of the round so being i1 slower doesn't mean anything.

Helena can't crush mid's without being a good distance from the opponent or having about 18 frames to spare. Her P+K doesn't even crush high's at it's start up let alone crushing mid's. When it comes to 11 frame mid's Helena doesn't have a definitive answer to them even if she knows it is coming unless she wants to counter. When I play Kokoro I love being able to stuff i11 mid's.

If I start the match against Gen Fu with Kokoro and he does 6P I can stuff it with her jab, and if he jab's as well it will trade. As Helena I have to just blocked or throw a counter out, I can't do shit about his 6P.

Maybe it's just that as a Helena player I have to find over complicated ways around i11 mid's and when I play Kokoro I can just jab them out of it. You don't realise how useful a i10 jab is till you don't have one any more. I mean Hayabusa players started committing suicide when his jab went from i10 > i11... and it was funny.
 

NightAntilli

Well-Known Member
I was talking about her jab and mid punch speed in reference to someone saying she can't compete with Kasumi and Christie. 99.9% of attacks in DOA5 leave the attacker at disadvantage so finding an opportunity to make use of her P and 6P against those two isn't difficult at all. How often are both players going to hit P or 6P at the same time? Never outside of the start of the round so being i1 slower doesn't mean anything.
Fair enough. If you take speed only, what you say is true. But.. Take Christie's evasiveness into account for example, and the use of P and 6P flies out the window. 6P is useful when you know a low is coming. That's pretty much Kokoro's only proper move to deal with close-up lows of fast characters.

Helena can't crush mid's without being a good distance from the opponent or having about 18 frames to spare. Her P+K doesn't even crush high's at it's start up let alone crushing mid's. When it comes to 11 frame mid's Helena doesn't have a definitive answer to them even if she knows it is coming unless she wants to counter. When I play Kokoro I love being able to stuff i11 mid's.
Maybe sidestepping is the answer. If I recall correctly, Helena has great sidestepping moves. There are barely any fast moves that track, so, that is an option.

If I start the match against Gen Fu with Kokoro and he does 6P I can stuff it with her jab, and if he jab's as well it will trade. As Helena I have to just blocked or throw a counter out, I can't do shit about his 6P.
Every time I try to do P against Gen Fu's 6P at the beginning of a match, it feels like his 6P is crushing my P, so I refrained from doing that. Didn't test it offline, so, it might be online shenanigans.

Maybe it's just that as a Helena player I have to find over complicated ways around i11 mid's and when I play Kokoro I can just jab them out of it. You don't realise how useful a i10 jab is till you don't have one any more. I mean Hayabusa players started committing suicide when his jab went from i10 > i11... and it was funny.
I guess. I never mained a character with an i11 punch. I'll have to take your word for it.
 

FlamingMuffin

Active Member
I have never found Kokoro top tier, just a solid character. People seem to not realize she has one (high) tracking move outside of strings. Even in strings, she has one mid option (46PP) and no lows. When a lot of SS moves also crush highs, it poses a problem.

Her only sit down stun that completely guarantees a launcher is 8P4P (maybe BT P+K, I'll have to check later). 236P is slow and causes too much pushback to be reliable.

Her in grab strings guarantee jack. You take a risk throwing and then another risk following up then another risk for the stun/reset/burst.

She can't crush lows, rarely mids (33P+K can I've found if you're lucky and spaced). She does not have an OH.

That being said, she has good damage output, some deep stuns, can apply reasonable pressure with the i10/12 combo and the throws do keep them on their toes. Plus she's pretty safe. This makes her a good character in my eyes. But top? Doubtful.
 

Omegan Eckhart

Well-Known Member
I have never found Kokoro top tier, just a solid character. People seem to not realize she has one (high) tracking move outside of strings. Even in strings, she has one mid option (46PP) and no lows. When a lot of SS moves also crush highs, it poses a problem.

Her only sit down stun that completely guarantees a launcher is 8P4P (maybe BT P+K, I'll have to check later). 236P is slow and causes too much pushback to be reliable.

Her in grab strings guarantee jack. You take a risk throwing and then another risk following up then another risk for the stun/reset/burst.

She can't crush lows, rarely mids (33P+K can I've found if you're lucky and spaced). She does not have an OH.

That being said, she has good damage output, some deep stuns, can apply reasonable pressure with the i10/12 combo and the throws do keep them on their toes. Plus she's pretty safe. This makes her a good character in my eyes. But top? Doubtful.
She is top because she can do a lot of damage and she can guarantee it easily without taking many risks. I can't remember the notation but I found a 2 hit CB with her, one attack that leads to ubu (or whatever it's called) straight to CB.
She isn't as ridiculous as Jann Lee or Lei Fang but she is head and shoulders above the characters that currently inhabit high tier.

Who cares if her in string throws guarantee jack if she reads you wrong and the thing whiff's she can still attack straight out of it so the risk is non existent.

She can CB in 2 to 3 hits so she doesn't need lots of sit down stuns like other characters do.
Maybe sidestepping is the answer. If I recall correctly, Helena has great sidestepping moves. There are barely any fast moves that track, so, that is an option.

Every time I try to do P against Gen Fu's 6P at the beginning of a match, it feels like his 6P is crushing my P, so I refrained from doing that. Didn't test it offline, so, it might be online shenanigans.
I have had Bass' mid kicks beat my i12 mid punch at the start of the round so yeah I call online BS in that situation.

Helena has a low kick that stuns and tracks from SS so in that sense it is good but it doesn't come out fast so it's only good for side stepping at the end of strings and single hit attacks. It's worthless as long as the opponent has another attack in their string unless it's a high.

Dealing with i11 mid's with Helena is a pain but I can manage, an i10 jab would make it much easier though :p
 

FlamingMuffin

Active Member
She is top because she can do a lot of damage and she can guarantee it easily without taking many risks. I can't remember the notation but I found a 2 hit CB with her, one attack that leads to ubu (or whatever it's called) straight to CB.
She isn't as ridiculous as Jann Lee or Lei Fang but she is head and shoulders above the characters that currently inhabit high tier.

Who cares if her in string throws guarantee jack if she reads you wrong and the thing whiff's she can still attack straight out of it so the risk is non existent.

She can CB in 2 to 3 hits so she doesn't need lots of sit down stuns like other characters do

You're probably thinking of 66P+KP+K 2P. That stun can be SEed and have her 7P blocked. I think all of her 2-3 CB's are SEable. Even her infamous in grab to Heichu P+K does not guarantee a CB. If they counter as soon as they are stunned, her jab cannot even connect (you have +9, enough for a throw to hit on HC, but that's about it).
 

Omegan Eckhart

Well-Known Member
You're probably thinking of 66P+KP+K 2P. That stun can be SEed and have her 7P blocked. I think all of her 2-3 CB's are SEable. Even her infamous in grab to Heichu P+K does not guarantee a CB. If they counter as soon as they are stunned, her jab cannot even connect (you have +9, enough for a throw to hit on HC, but that's about it).
No it's 8P > P+K > P+K > CB. It can't be slow escaped.
 

NightAntilli

Well-Known Member
She isn't as ridiculous as Jann Lee or Lei Fang but she is head and shoulders above the characters that currently inhabit high tier.
Hm. Which characters are those? I'm genuinely curious.

Helena has a low kick that stuns and tracks from SS so in that sense it is good but it doesn't come out fast so it's only good for side stepping at the end of strings and single hit attacks. It's worthless as long as the opponent has another attack in their string unless it's a high.
I've had that sidestepping sweep go under my mids quite a few times. Either it has good enough properties to evade quite a few mids, or I'm the most unlucky player ever, which I believe sometimes xD

Dealing with i11 mid's with Helena is a pain but I can manage, an i10 jab would make it much easier though :p
Maybe they should give Helena a mid Sabaki.
 

Omegan Eckhart

Well-Known Member
Hm. Which characters are those? I'm genuinely curious.

I've had that sidestepping sweep go under my mids quite a few times. Either it has good enough properties to evade quite a few mids, of I'm the most unlucky player ever, which I believe sometimes xD

Maybe they should give Helena a mid Sabaki.
High Tier:
Akira
Hayabusa
Helena
Kasumi
Brad Wong... take it with a pinch of salt.

Helena's side step kick has gone under your mid's? Wow... that is unlucky :p

A sabaki would be sweet, might just be easier to remove the nerfs her BKO stance though.

Same issue as before. Anything with her stance P+K can be instantly countered out of, leaving Kokoro at +9 which is not enough to do anything except throw.
The only way to get out of that string is to counter correctly and at the right time. Countering instantly doesn't help at all.

I'm not sure if I am missing something in what you said or you haven't tested the string out. Let me know either way.
 

FlamingMuffin

Active Member
The only way to get out of that string is to counter correctly and at the right time. Countering instantly doesn't help at all.

I'm not sure if I am missing something in what you said or you haven't tested the string out. Let me know either way.

Basically, once you are hit with Heichu P+K and if you counter immediately after being stunned, you reduce the advantage Kokoro has to +9.
 

NightAntilli

Well-Known Member
Basically, once you are hit with Heichu P+K and if you counter immediately after being stunned, you reduce the advantage Kokoro has to +9.
Yeah that's one of the gripes with DOA. They should add a few frames before being able to counter out of any stun. 8 frames is enough, and that way, people can't immediately hold to block freely or even get advantage on you in certain situations.


High Tier:
Akira
Hayabusa
Helena
Kasumi
Brad Wong... take it with a pinch of salt.
Interesting list of high tier...


I personally don't think Akira and Kokoro are on that different a level. Kokoro has mid string grabs, while Akira has guard crushes that give some guaranteed basic 'launchers', which are more like ground bounces and stuff. He doesn't need high launchers for damage at all. He can bounce the crap out of you for nice damage. Akira at least has a nice low that stuns on normal hit, while Kokoro doesn't really have one. Akira is very poke heavy, which makes him hard to use, but he's definitely powerful enough to be on Kokoro's level. His grabs are good too. His issue, like Kokoro, is being linear. But.. He stays at neutral or gets advantage by basic pokes, which Kokoro doesn't get. She needs to use her risky stuff to get advantage.

Hayabusa, I have no idea, however, I know for certain his defense is way above Kokoro's. I have no idea about Kasumi either, and Helena and Brad I consider mid tier.
 

Omegan Eckhart

Well-Known Member
Yeah that's one of the gripes with DOA. They should add a few frames before being able to counter out of any stun. 8 frames is enough, and that way, people can't immediately hold to block freely or even get advantage on you in certain situations.



Interesting list of high tier...


I personally don't think Akira and Kokoro are on that different a level. Kokoro has mid string grabs, while Akira has guard crushes that give some guaranteed basic 'launchers', which are more like ground bounces and stuff. He doesn't need high launchers for damage at all. He can bounce the crap out of you for nice damage. Akira at least has a nice low that stuns on normal hit, while Kokoro doesn't really have one. Akira is very poke heavy, which makes him hard to use, but he's definitely powerful enough to be on Kokoro's level. His grabs are good too. His issue, like Kokoro, is being linear. But.. He stays at neutral or gets advantage by basic pokes, which Kokoro doesn't get. She needs to use her risky stuff to get advantage.

Hayabusa, I have no idea, however, I know for certain his defense is way above Kokoro's. I have no idea about Kasumi either, and Helena and Brad I consider mid tier.
Honestly I am not 100% who is high tier post patch, top tier is easier to figure out. As far as Helena goes she is going to take some serious lab work to see how her force tech's work, if they work at all. Even if they are somewhat intact she will be weaker regardless.

If the glitch stays in the tier list will change drastically. Fingers crossed till tomorrow.
 

Brute

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
For what it's worth, as a Hayabusa player I would consider him in High Tier in 1.03. Still below the tops and even sub-tops (aka: SS & S), but still very versatile and very punishing when used correctly (A).
 

DR2K

Well-Known Member
The thing about that is that linear is Kokoro is much more easily sidestepped than the above characters especially Jann and Lei and where as you're more inclined to block and respect the latter 2's options (More tracking moves, fear of OH's, etc.) in most cases SS'ing Kokoro especially after the patch completely stops her offense.

Sidestepping was a weakness for each of these characters but it was the most glaring weakness for Kokoro, now we put that weakness on steroids. Of course it will effect her worse than the others.


Actually the buff to SS doesn't affect Akira nearly as much as it effects his ball & chain. Akira's biggest weakness was always sidestepping from the start as he's not a string based character. Unless he used a tracking move if he threw out an attack and it was sidestepped he was pretty much screwed. Kokoro on the other hand had the freedom to snuff SS'ing with her various strings. With the buff to SS'ing Kokoro gets put in the same boat as her secret lover where as virtually nothing changes for Akira since sidestepping already stopped his offense before.

That's basically why I think Akira moved up and Kokoro moved down. Kokoro's will have to play much more careful and conservative now, where as Akira's can basically just keep doing what they've been doing already and it'll work even more than it did before because of his ridiculous damage buffs.

The new SS is even easier to use and much more evasive. I believe this was the reason Akira got buffs.
 
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