Looking at the list and the spread sheet, I mostly agree.
Ayane is one of the trickiest ninjas to use, but that's what I love about her. Majority of Ayane's moves are safe
Care to elaborate for me?
DOA5U The Official Tier List with Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Crext
- Start date
Care to elaborate for me?
Advantage = 6-4
Greater Advantage = 7-3
That's how it is. That's how DBomb responded when asked what characters Leon had advantage over, and which characters he had a greater advantage over on top of that.
A 7-3 match-up is still playable and viable. It's when you reach 8-2 that it becomes a struggle.
I formatted the spreadsheet, the data came from an amalgam of people, including this thread.
http://www.freestepdodge.com/threads/bass-throw-punish-thread.3524/#post-136885
For reference just so that people know how safe she is.
So, DOA5U has 23 7-3 match ups lol? I'm sorry, but this tier list is an absolute failure. I really want these players that are giving these generic match up numbers so freely to actually elaborate on why these match ups are a 7-3. To have that many 7-3 match ups is absurd.
How is Akira vs Jacky a 7-3 in Jacky's favor? Akira vs Christie is 7-3 in Christie's favor? Kokoro vs Leon is a 7-3? How?
Christie vs NyoTengu is a 7-3 in Christie's favor? How, because she's faster? How in the world is Hayabusa vs Sarah a 7-3 lol? Christie has so many 7-3 match ups, yet Genfu has none and he's the better character?
Most of this chart and list makes no sense. This tier list is doomed.
Okay, come DOA5 Last Round, this should be redone because all the chart shows is a lot of people being biased and then not even understanding what other characters are capable of and what tools they have. It just looks like a bunch of random match up numbers were chosen and people roll with it.
This also implies character forums need to start concentrating more on in-depth discussion outside of combos.
How is Akira vs Jacky a 7-3 in Jacky's favor? Akira vs Christie is 7-3 in Christie's favor? Kokoro vs Leon is a 7-3? How?
Christie vs NyoTengu is a 7-3 in Christie's favor? How, because she's faster? How in the world is Hayabusa vs Sarah a 7-3 lol? Christie has so many 7-3 match ups, yet Genfu has none and he's the better character?
Most of this chart and list makes no sense. This tier list is doomed.
Okay, come DOA5 Last Round, this should be redone because all the chart shows is a lot of people being biased and then not even understanding what other characters are capable of and what tools they have. It just looks like a bunch of random match up numbers were chosen and people roll with it.
This also implies character forums need to start concentrating more on in-depth discussion outside of combos.
Because obviously Hayabusa is just so much better than Sarah that she can't keep up with him.
That chart says its in favor of Sarah, Brute.
It says Ryu v Sarah is 6-4 Ryu and that Sarah v Ryu is 7-3 Sarah.
Honestly, I am against the whole 6-4, 7-3 shit because that's assuming that both players are equal in skill which will almost never happen. I think its more practical to list match ups as "advantage" or "disadvantaged". That way you have to go into detail about how the matchup actually works. And yes a lot of us don't know our match-ups.
also lol @ 7-3 matchup between Akira vs. Christie. That's just wrong.
also lol @ 7-3 matchup between Akira vs. Christie. That's just wrong.
Madian
Active Member
It seems a lot of people on this forum are missing the point of tier lists. A lot of people don't like them because they feel that they discourage adaptation or treat competition as overly formulaic. Despite one's philosophy, match ups are a real thing and an integral part of the meta in fighting games. No one can safely say what the tier list is for a game until years into it's life span.
Here's a breakdown on what each ratio means. If someone else already provided this on another post I will delete this and quote there's.
6:4 / 4:6
This is, in fact, a very equal match up. The only time you will ever really notice the match up difference is when both players are truly of equal skill level. Even then it is winnable for either side. A 6-4 can be caused by any number of factors from one character just being overall better than the other or it could be a specific situation like a mix up that doesn't work or works only in this match up.
7:3 / 3:7
This is when a match up becomes noticeably slanted in one's favor. Even when the two players aren't perfectly even but still on the same level you will see that one character holds an advantage over the other. If the two players are about even with each other the "3" needs a little luck on top of being on point with their game. Because of this, 7-3's are often considered controversial (if we dare use that word) as they stir up a lot of differing opinions. 7-3's exist in virtually every fighting game out there.
8:2 / 2:8
There is no question that this match up is unbalanced. Usually there is one specific reason for this 8:2 in addition to lots of other examples. No one with any sense will question that this match up is unfair but to what extent is often debated. This is the first ratio that is often seen as impossible or highly improbable in a tournament setting where the players may be competing in long sets where getting consistent wins is essential.
9:1 / 1:9
This ratio exists usually not just because of a specific situation or a number of situations but a design flaw by the developers. Some opinion's say that 10-0's default to this since, "you can't put a 10-0 on paper". These are rare in competitive fighting games. Basically the "1" might as well just put the controller down. In short, DoA5 has no 9-1's though I figured I would mention it for the sake of discussion.
In addition to the above, "half points" exist in which aspects of the above and below ratio are true to a certain extent. 5.5 and 6.5 are commonly seen in games that have been around for a few years. During a game's infancy it's too specific a number to have the clarity to apply.
Here's a breakdown on what each ratio means. If someone else already provided this on another post I will delete this and quote there's.
6:4 / 4:6
This is, in fact, a very equal match up. The only time you will ever really notice the match up difference is when both players are truly of equal skill level. Even then it is winnable for either side. A 6-4 can be caused by any number of factors from one character just being overall better than the other or it could be a specific situation like a mix up that doesn't work or works only in this match up.
7:3 / 3:7
This is when a match up becomes noticeably slanted in one's favor. Even when the two players aren't perfectly even but still on the same level you will see that one character holds an advantage over the other. If the two players are about even with each other the "3" needs a little luck on top of being on point with their game. Because of this, 7-3's are often considered controversial (if we dare use that word) as they stir up a lot of differing opinions. 7-3's exist in virtually every fighting game out there.
8:2 / 2:8
There is no question that this match up is unbalanced. Usually there is one specific reason for this 8:2 in addition to lots of other examples. No one with any sense will question that this match up is unfair but to what extent is often debated. This is the first ratio that is often seen as impossible or highly improbable in a tournament setting where the players may be competing in long sets where getting consistent wins is essential.
9:1 / 1:9
This ratio exists usually not just because of a specific situation or a number of situations but a design flaw by the developers. Some opinion's say that 10-0's default to this since, "you can't put a 10-0 on paper". These are rare in competitive fighting games. Basically the "1" might as well just put the controller down. In short, DoA5 has no 9-1's though I figured I would mention it for the sake of discussion.
In addition to the above, "half points" exist in which aspects of the above and below ratio are true to a certain extent. 5.5 and 6.5 are commonly seen in games that have been around for a few years. During a game's infancy it's too specific a number to have the clarity to apply.
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@Goarmagon I think a 6-4 is far as disadvantageous a match up can go in this game. I also think it's fair to have match ups numbers up to 6-4. You'd still have to go into detail whether a match up is listed in numbers or as Advantage/Disadvantage. That bit doesn't necessarily make the difference.
I'm not really inclined to agree with 7-3 match ups in DOA5U when the game is really balanced not to allow something like that to be so lopsided. I've not seen any evidence anywhere pointing to any match up in the game as a 7-3. I would need people playing those specific characters at the highest level to thoroughly elaborate why a certain match up is a 7-3 in this game.
As of right now, we don't have two different parties capable of that.
As of right now, we don't have two different parties capable of that.
RoboJoe
Well-Known Member
That's an excellent writeup of how the matchup numbers work. It's a shame for it to be buried here on page 71. It would be nice if everyone posting numbers would read and use this as a guideline for the sake of consistency. I think this should be added to the first post so that everyone can see it.
Explain to me how fighting Christie isn't an uphill battle for Bayman.
When people talk about match ups in reference to fast strikers, people make it seem as though the other character has no buttons or no opportunities to change offense and momentum in their favor.
Characters with slower strike speed require a player to be more patient and read heavy. Bayman has parries to help him during the neutral game, especially when he has a good read on your strike pattern. Both Leifang and Bayman have the ability to keep someone honest during the neutral game because both possess unique holds, parries and throws (especially by walls) to help their neutral game.
You are not going to out strike a faster character as Bayman, that makes you lose. You are suppose to see and figure out the opponent's strike patterns, know your own tools well and realize when you can retaliate. Get reads, then proceed to follow up your read correctly. You are suppose to be the patient one.
Characters of slower strike speed (and Ayane) are supposed to teach a player the value of patience and defense. But people want to be button for button with every character, then wonder why they're losing.
A character like Bass for example is equal to that of Zangief in SSF4 that when he gets his read on you, it'll hurt, a lot (not to mention Bass' 6T is 50 damage and leaves him at + frames). And is truly a frightening character in this game. Yet is perceived to be low tier because he's slow. Strike speed is highly overrated in this game and when I look at that match up chart, that seems to be what infuences the match up numbers.
Characters with slower strike speed require a player to be more patient and read heavy. Bayman has parries to help him during the neutral game, especially when he has a good read on your strike pattern. Both Leifang and Bayman have the ability to keep someone honest during the neutral game because both possess unique holds, parries and throws (especially by walls) to help their neutral game.
You are not going to out strike a faster character as Bayman, that makes you lose. You are suppose to see and figure out the opponent's strike patterns, know your own tools well and realize when you can retaliate. Get reads, then proceed to follow up your read correctly. You are suppose to be the patient one.
Characters of slower strike speed (and Ayane) are supposed to teach a player the value of patience and defense. But people want to be button for button with every character, then wonder why they're losing.
A character like Bass for example is equal to that of Zangief in SSF4 that when he gets his read on you, it'll hurt, a lot (not to mention Bass' 6T is 50 damage and leaves him at + frames). And is truly a frightening character in this game. Yet is perceived to be low tier because he's slow. Strike speed is highly overrated in this game and when I look at that match up chart, that seems to be what infuences the match up numbers.
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I feel like I am fully prepared to go through this, though I hope I don't bore anyone. I really wanted to bring @EMPEROR_COW into this discussion with me, because he's on the side of 'there are no 7-3 MUs' and I was hoping I'd have his input because that always helped me better understand this game as a whole and improve.
Let me go through
- as an example:I have previously gone through this after two whole weeks of just sitting down every day and testing every single tool against the other and I've had previous MU knowledge by playing against other players during casual sessions.
http://www.freestepdodge.com/thread...th-discussion-thread.3817/page-67#post-223247
I don't want to start any sort of anti-[insert top char here] arguments, but I would I like to address Bass' issues here and why they affect these negative MUs and this is not the fault of the current tier list (there are too many biased and not well researched views), but some character designs that are way too old and are showing their issues.
This is going to be lengthy, but do try to read everything:
We all know he is severely handicapped when it comes to the neutral game. You can straight up poke him all day. That doesn't really stop anyone from actually picking up the character and find a way around an opponent's offense or get a lucky shot and start from there. Holds help too and his hold damage is not average.
However this also means that he can't try to poke a character mid-string; his 2P is probably the riskier one in the game and you have to play it really unorthodox when actually trying to get the most out of it and it is very counter-hit dependent (still useful in the Sarah MU). His 1P ends up being slow for that purpose in general and is mostly just for poking and simple high crushing. 41236P+K doesn't crush immediately and the reward on any hit type is always negative and risky afterwards. His low crushes are better but they're slow and you still run the risk of whiffing a h+K especially against character with a mid-crushing sweep. 6h+k is better but it's super slow, so it's fairly situational or mainly for whiff punishment or the hail Mary sort of commitment.
His mids are really not that great against certain characters; 6P ends up being crushed more often by Christie than you might think and the only things it can stop mostly are midstring JAK transitions on reaction or a lucky CH after a GB (which is still risky). 3K also ends up being ducked under by quite a lot of moves actually. His true mids aren't that great either; 6K is unsafe and really doesn't have a mixup because both hits are reactable and it's unsafe on block. 33P is another but that is itself also pretty risky. 6h+k and 8p are too slow for true mids and interruptible. His fastest low is 16i (2K) and faster high crush move is 17i.
I do recall up till I think 5U ver 1.03 his 6p+KK straight up whiffed against crouching Christie and Helena in close stance and it actually happened to me a few times in matches. And that's not a shit string either since the mixup is actually good to the point that even Genfu can't crush his P option and it's uninterruptible.
Anyway, that's still not bad because your options are trimmed down to 1P, 33P, 6K and the occasional 66p+K (that actually gets crushed too). pK is pretty good in most cases too. You can keep doing that a few dozen times before people actually figure out a way to respond properly. It's really not bad when you think about it; do your thing, maybe buffer high or mid punch holds and hope for the best.
Bass players aren't afraid to hold either since Christie doesn't really have scary throw options. If you think her wall throws are scary, then you haven't seen mine...if I can get the opportunity to use em of course lol.
The main problem comes when you're in situations where you think you got the ball rolling but you don't. Two of the biggest deterrents to this MU being in major disfavour are his 6T and his psuedo FT game and what he can get against Christie.
6T situations are generally something I've gone through before in my previous post regarding the MU, so it's something I actually looked into the most, because this is one of those cases where you primary throw punishment is not the Zangief spd with all those scary wake up options. It's pretty much a guessing game for both players post 6T. I've been in many situations where I throw punish and attempt to start an offense while the other guy just 214p or 3p+Ks his way through while audibly laughing out loud, so yeah, it's all just a poker game. Usually it's safer to just dash in and 2K to keep an opponent honest or just do a quick dash back and check for whiffs. I don't expect to do that in other game where I am at +10, but eh, I don't mind trying new things.It's really not as bad as I make it, but it's still bad.
Another situations is the post 6KP psuedo FT in juggles where you expect to have frame advantage, but you're in a very risky situations. After long experimenting against the whole cast, I've come to the conclusion that Christie gives the least amount of frame advantage compared to the rest of the cast, which makes her rather unique. The blender itself is very height dependent, but even at the highest possible height for the blender transitions, he still can't use the options he can use against the rest of the cast. This is my main gripe with Christie being a mid weight character because it didn't make sense to me. Maybe it did back in DOA3.
And in terms of defensive options, he really has no parries or great crushes, really. His movement is quite honestly shit (really no arguments here), he has no defensive options outside the universal ones and he's a big target which would not have been a problem if he didn't have bad movement parameters.
It's clear that the Japanese community don't like the character at all (I know of only three JAP Bass players and only one of them actually plays him right), so he ends up not being played and not properly tested for any issues. Bringing up the argument that people don't like pure grapplers is a fallacy because there are some very notable players in Japan playing grab or hybrids (FAB, YSD, Sheep, etc. I can go on), so it's safe to say that the reason they don't like the character is for a few reasons: a) he's badly designed and goes against the general pace and and stereotype of the game being fast and strike oriented, b) people still don't know how to play him and only have combo knowledge, c) his metagame is weird when you come to grips with it, d) he has no strings which hinders him greatly and his pokes aren't that great in the first place and d) he's kinda weird for a grab character to start with.
He's just way too tall and big. His moveset is also very very outdated. He's had the same core move set since 98. He's had like what, one new string and a handful of followups?
What TN needs to do is to take away some of his damage and give him specific defensive tools and new moves, not constantly up his damage for no reason. You don't see that with Marduk and jeffrey. They have unique tools to stop that. Just give him one good sabaki and watch him improve immensely.
I really like to sit down and just go through his whole toolset one day and compile it all into a tutorial video of sorts. One day.
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@UncleKitchener , @iHajinShinobi
There are reasons I don't join in on the conversations here...
1) 90% of the conversations go in circles with fixated stubborn opinions.
2) I hate reading walls over walls of text, then having to correct them with a wall of text of my own.
3) As much as tiers are hip these days.. I don't personally like them and find them counter productive. The game is still evolving and new ways the game can be played are being discovered over and over.. biggest game changer is the unholdables which give some characters a clear advantage over others. I particularly hate tier lists as they scare off lower level players.
4) I'm doing my part with being one of the only media outlets actually teaching the game in the way that I personally find far more productive than this.
5) The arguments that the Japanese don't understand the game like we do, or that the US is OP and so they know how to play the game best are arguments that make me cringe and laugh at the same time. There's no truth behind this. Gehaktbal proved that Europe has strength, and Japan in my opinion has evolved to a whole new monstrosity now thanks to the arcade when comparing them to the way they were in January when I first met them..
6) Not everything written on paper is what actually happens in an actual fight.. so there's that too..
Now since I'm being dragged into this, I'm afraid I have to side with @iHajinShinobi (although I disagreed a bit in the past with some of his philosophies behind the Ayane matchups).. A lot of the match-ups mentioned have no basis to them, particularly Akira and Jacky among other whack matchups already mentioned.. Also, Kokoro being D tier makes me laugh... Zack and Mila should go up a notch too ..
Lets take Akira for example: (let the rage begin)
Akira, in my opinion.. and also in the opinion of a lot of the Japanese players is on top .. way on top and its clear as day.
- Mid speed with amazing frames
- Guarding is as risky as not guarding against him.
- So much guaranteed awesomeness.
- Amazing crushes
- hands down the best juggler in the game with the highest damage output .. needing only minor launch to perform what is seen as max damage with some other characters.
- Some of the best FT and unholdable setups in the game particularly with his guard breaks.
- Don't make me laugh about the whole he's so linear and loses to sidestep argument... he may be linear but he has the tools to stop them like everyone else. Plus its not like he has these easily sidesteppable long ass strings .. his longest string is 3 hits .. lol ... every damn character has 99% of their single pokes or 2 hit strings sidesteppable.. this isn't a good argument. (This also applies to the Kokoro argument)
- He has a crouching sidestep.. and I swear that SS P+K is awesome.
But it doesn't surprise me that you haven't reached this conclusion in the US. You simply don't have solid enough Akira players there (no disrespect to the US players, but when it comes to Akira playstyle and tech.. Japan is way ahead of you guys).
When constructing a tier list, execution difficulty should not be a factor.. and boy do I see a lot of dropped combos in very crucial moments by many Akira players (particularly in the US tournaments.. no offense).. a Tier list should be constructed to view a match up when both characters are played at their top level with unflawed skill. A good example of this would be C.Viper in SF.
I could talk about how Kokoro is also amazing, but I'll let my next video do the talking since its on her. (as soon as I sort out some things keeping me busy in my personal life).
The game is far more balanced than perceived ..
Anyway, pls.. leave me out of this.. lol
There are reasons I don't join in on the conversations here...
1) 90% of the conversations go in circles with fixated stubborn opinions.
2) I hate reading walls over walls of text, then having to correct them with a wall of text of my own.
3) As much as tiers are hip these days.. I don't personally like them and find them counter productive. The game is still evolving and new ways the game can be played are being discovered over and over.. biggest game changer is the unholdables which give some characters a clear advantage over others. I particularly hate tier lists as they scare off lower level players.
4) I'm doing my part with being one of the only media outlets actually teaching the game in the way that I personally find far more productive than this.
5) The arguments that the Japanese don't understand the game like we do, or that the US is OP and so they know how to play the game best are arguments that make me cringe and laugh at the same time. There's no truth behind this. Gehaktbal proved that Europe has strength, and Japan in my opinion has evolved to a whole new monstrosity now thanks to the arcade when comparing them to the way they were in January when I first met them..
6) Not everything written on paper is what actually happens in an actual fight.. so there's that too..
Now since I'm being dragged into this, I'm afraid I have to side with @iHajinShinobi (although I disagreed a bit in the past with some of his philosophies behind the Ayane matchups).. A lot of the match-ups mentioned have no basis to them, particularly Akira and Jacky among other whack matchups already mentioned.. Also, Kokoro being D tier makes me laugh... Zack and Mila should go up a notch too ..
Lets take Akira for example: (let the rage begin)
Akira, in my opinion.. and also in the opinion of a lot of the Japanese players is on top .. way on top and its clear as day.
- Mid speed with amazing frames
- Guarding is as risky as not guarding against him.
- So much guaranteed awesomeness.
- Amazing crushes
- hands down the best juggler in the game with the highest damage output .. needing only minor launch to perform what is seen as max damage with some other characters.
- Some of the best FT and unholdable setups in the game particularly with his guard breaks.
- Don't make me laugh about the whole he's so linear and loses to sidestep argument... he may be linear but he has the tools to stop them like everyone else. Plus its not like he has these easily sidesteppable long ass strings .. his longest string is 3 hits .. lol ... every damn character has 99% of their single pokes or 2 hit strings sidesteppable.. this isn't a good argument. (This also applies to the Kokoro argument)
- He has a crouching sidestep.. and I swear that SS P+K is awesome.
But it doesn't surprise me that you haven't reached this conclusion in the US. You simply don't have solid enough Akira players there (no disrespect to the US players, but when it comes to Akira playstyle and tech.. Japan is way ahead of you guys).
When constructing a tier list, execution difficulty should not be a factor.. and boy do I see a lot of dropped combos in very crucial moments by many Akira players (particularly in the US tournaments.. no offense).. a Tier list should be constructed to view a match up when both characters are played at their top level with unflawed skill. A good example of this would be C.Viper in SF.
I could talk about how Kokoro is also amazing, but I'll let my next video do the talking since its on her. (as soon as I sort out some things keeping me busy in my personal life).
The game is far more balanced than perceived ..
Anyway, pls.. leave me out of this.. lol
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@EMPEROR_COW thanks for the input. Lot of good points there.
My statement regarding Japan and them not being able to play a certain character was not worded correctly, but I'm gonna stand by my statement that they just don't like the character, so they don't play him. But maybe I'm just completely wrong about all of this and I'm shit at this game.
Yeah, I'm out of this discussion too. Time for me to go back to doing something worthwhile.
My statement regarding Japan and them not being able to play a certain character was not worded correctly, but I'm gonna stand by my statement that they just don't like the character, so they don't play him. But maybe I'm just completely wrong about all of this and I'm shit at this game.
Yeah, I'm out of this discussion too. Time for me to go back to doing something worthwhile.
I'll just comment that Katsuninken mentioned to me that Japan just didn't/doesn't think of playing Bass the way I play(ed) him; that I showed them some concepts and methods to use him that were never seen before. I think it was the Taiwanese that said they were going to research the 'grappler' characters like Leon and Bass moreso because of that tournament due to them just assuming the game was nothing but speed.
For me, I believe the game has a huger reliance on offense and speed than other areas of the game. Not saying that's bad, I mean DOA4 was a very defensive game simply because doing anything but holding would put you at a disadvantage and not rack up damage.
I don't like discussing tiers until a game has been out for at least a year, and that's after all updates have ceased. These threads were made to keep the garbage redundancy of "Who's what tier at this point in time?" like a bug zapper. They're all subjective based on region and experience.
On the other hand, I prefer having a game that's consistently updated by developers because it shows that the game I'm playing is getting a high enough demand to warrant it (or else you'd get something like SC5 where the balance is done and you're just stuck with it). What little discussions of "Which characters are better than other characters?" are had, help provide feedback to those developers.
For me, I believe the game has a huger reliance on offense and speed than other areas of the game. Not saying that's bad, I mean DOA4 was a very defensive game simply because doing anything but holding would put you at a disadvantage and not rack up damage.
I don't like discussing tiers until a game has been out for at least a year, and that's after all updates have ceased. These threads were made to keep the garbage redundancy of "Who's what tier at this point in time?" like a bug zapper. They're all subjective based on region and experience.
On the other hand, I prefer having a game that's consistently updated by developers because it shows that the game I'm playing is getting a high enough demand to warrant it (or else you'd get something like SC5 where the balance is done and you're just stuck with it). What little discussions of "Which characters are better than other characters?" are had, help provide feedback to those developers.
Fair enough, @Mr. Wah , but I personally would rather wait much later after LR's released to even come back to these discussions myself. I don't want to use these numbers as something to shove in the developer's face and ask for things, but rather as something for myself to gauge not only my character, but also myself as a player.
Also, interesting comment regarding the Taiwanese community. Are the old DOA2U/DOA3 players still playing the game? I know pretty much of UprisingJ and that's it, the rest like KillerBear and Holan aren't playing as far as I know. Those guys were pretty varied in terms of character choices back in the day.
Anyway, I'm glad they're at least looking more into it.
Also, interesting comment regarding the Taiwanese community. Are the old DOA2U/DOA3 players still playing the game? I know pretty much of UprisingJ and that's it, the rest like KillerBear and Holan aren't playing as far as I know. Those guys were pretty varied in terms of character choices back in the day.
Anyway, I'm glad they're at least looking more into it.
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