DOA5U The Official Tier List with Discussion Thread

[Lulu]

Oh..... I thought it was a move so powerful that it was broken.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

Raidou has better spacing options than Ryu? Could you elaborate? Pretty curious.

236P, 66P, 2P and 66T (OH) allow Raidou to control more forward spacing than most considered great at spacing (along with some other tools obviously). 236P being unseeable at i14 with so much range means you have to respect it, and if you don't learn which amount of space(s) you need to be at in the match up. You will lose faster than necessary. He is a true contender at it with Ayane, Momiji and is better at it than Hayabusa and Hayate because of it. I would actually go as far as to say his match ups with Ayane and Momiji are mostly even.

1P+K K with Ayane becomes a little risky at any time it is misplaced at all, while Raidou's 236P or his lows (except for 2P) become risky at any time they are misplaced at all.

Top 5;

1) Leifang
2) Genfu
3) Ayane
4) Christie
5) Zack

Top 10;

6) Momiji
7) Pai
8) Sarah
9) Hayate
10) Mila

This is a from a discussion that has happened about twice now among Corposant, Prince Adon and myself. That top 5 is basically a standard agreement between the three, although personally I believe Leifang is the best, and not Genfu. Corposant is one of the most prominent Helena players in North America alongside Xcalibur Bladez and Emann, and does not believe Helena is a top 10 character in Last Round.

Momiji is almost just as good as Ayane in terms of footsies, spacing, the ability to dictate rounds/matches really well when you learn how to control her, a great i12 2P, and generally not having issues in CQC against anyone. But what sets her back is lacking in tools as much as Ayane actually has in everything. Her movement ability is not on par with Ayane, and while she does have excellent tools to fight in CQC and at footsies. Ayane has more in both areas and her reward is simply better at all of it. And Ayane actually wins their match up. Ayane also literally has the best counter hit jab in the game.

However, both characters are very tough to approach and do not allow you to simply run in with buttons so mindlessly.

 

[Brute]

Oh..... I thought it was a move so powerful that it was broken.

Not at all. Powerful, but nowhere near broken.

236P, 66P, 2P and 66T (OH) allow Raidou to control more forward spacing than most considered great at spacing (along with some other tools obviously). 236P being unseeable at i14 with so much range means you have to respect it, and if you don't learn which amount of space(s) you need to be at in the match up. You will lose faster than necessary. He is a true contender at it with Ayane, Momiji and is better at it than Hayabusa and Hayate because of it. I would actually go as far as to say his match ups with Ayane and Momiji are mostly even.

1P+K K with Ayane becomes a little risky at any time it is misplaced at all, while Raidou's 236P or his lows (except for 2P) become risky at any time they are misplaced at all.

Top 5;

1) Leifang
2) Genfu
3) Ayane
4) Christie
5) Zack

Top 10;

6) Momiji
7) Pai
8) Sarah
9) Hayate
10) Mila

This is a from a discussion that has happened about twice now among Corposant, Prince Adon and myself. That top 5 is basically a standard agreement between the three, although personally I believe Leifang is the best, and not Genfu. Corposant is one of the most prominent Helena players in North America alongside Xcalibur Bladez and Emann, and does not believe Helena is a top 10 character in Last Round.

Momiji is almost just as good as Ayane in terms of footsies, spacing, the ability to dictate rounds/matches really well when you learn how to control her, a great i12 2P, and generally not having issues in CQC against anyone. But what sets her back is lacking in tools as much as Ayane actually has in everything. Her movement ability is not on par with Ayane, and while she does have excellent tools to fight in CQC and at footsies. Ayane has more in both areas and her reward is simply better at all of it. And Ayane actually wins their match up. Ayane also literally has the best counter hit jab in the game.

However, both characters are very tough to approach and do not allow you to simply run in with buttons so mindlessly.

A post in this thread I don't find blatantly ridiculous. Huh.
Okay, Hajin. You can have my "like."

 

[iHajinShinobi]

A post in this thread I don't find blatantly ridiculous. Huh.
Okay, Hajin. You can have my "like."

Yay!

 

[Tempest]

Top 5;

1) Leifang
2) Genfu
3) Ayane
4) Christie
5) Zack

Top 10;

6) Momiji
7) Pai
8) Sarah
9) Hayate
10) Mila

.

I find it interesting that so many people feel Kasumi isn't top 10 material. Zack being so high is also something I find odd, though I can't say much for his potential because the last time I saw a high level match with him in it was at TFC.

 

[Jefffcore]

Ryu advantages over Raidou:
i10 jab
Hold damage
Environment damage
Crushes

Raidou advantages over Ryu:
Damage
Mixups
Safety
Frame advantage
Spacing
OHs
Lows
Weight Class

Now, if for some reason you still disagree with the assertion that Raidou is stronger than Ryu, it would be for one of two reasons.

1. You think something I just stated is untrue (ie: Ryu's OHs are actually better than Raidou's). You'd be wrong, but whatever.
2. You believe the listed advantages for Ryu outweigh those of Raidou (ie: It's better to have higher hold/environment damage than a strong neutral game). If this were true, Leon would be considered a stronger character generally speaking than Christie, since his hold/environment damage easily outweighs hers. However, that's absurd, and no one makes that argument. This is because what makes characters strong in this game is having a threatening neutral.

As far as positing you "wouldn't go as far as saying he's worse than Raidou" goes, that's quite a silly statement, as Raidou is really fucking strong. So that's not saying anything inherently bad about Ryu aside from the fact that he's not as strong as an incredibly powerful character.


Actually, Raidou's neutral is far better than Ryu's, and Ryu's stuns are better than Raidou's.
Raidou has more useful frame advantage, more safety, better lows and more openers than Ryu in neutral, in addition to having useful OHs.
Ryu has three exploitable CH lift-stuns all on different hit-levels, and has a SDS that guarantees a CB. Raidou has one lift stun and numerous gut-stuns.

I don't agree with his neutral game being better, or hayabusa playing the stun game better.

Raidou can't deal with 10i mids.

I don't know what to even say about stuns; raidou has so many better stuns.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

I find it interesting that so many people feel Kasumi isn't top 10 material. Zack being so high is also something I find odd, though I can't say much for his potential because the last time I saw a high level match with him in it was at TFC.

Because Kasumi simply isn't top 10.

 

[Brute]

Raidou can't deal with 10i mids.

Good thing there are literally no i10 mids in the entire game, then.

 

[Jefffcore]

Meant 11

 

[Brute]

Meant 11

Well, you're still wrong, since he can.
An i11 jab doesn't mean you automatically have a worse neutral game than anyone with an i10 jab. You could argue they have a worse R1F against i11 midders, but you didn't argue that. Raidou's P string is far more effective than Ryu's, despite being 1 frame slower. The speed does hurt him in certain situations, but it in no way invalidates the rest of his vastly superior neutral game.

And as far as Raidou's unmentioned "so many better stuns," I'm not sure how you beat the things I just mentioned Ryu posses (a combination exclusive to him, AFAIK). Probably because you don't. Aside from OH shenanigans and Gen Fu's 3P nonsense, a stun game doesn't really get better than Ryu's (aside from lows and arguably some gimmicky natural buffer-traps). But I guess as long as these better stuns remain unspecified, they can be as powerful as you want them to be.

 

[Tempest]

Because Kasumi simply isn't top 10.

Fair enough, Kasumi really isn't my area of expertise so I'm not really in a position to argue with you on that.

 

[Jefffcore]

Let's play, brute.

 

[Force_of_Nature]

Let's play, brute.

I wanna see this Ryu & Raidou action.

 

[KING JAIMY]

Ryu advantages over Raidou:
i10 jab
Hold damage
Environment damage
Crushes
Faster Throws
Guaranteed damage
Tracking
Faster overall speed

Raidou advantages over Ryu:
Damage
i13 low
Mixups -> Not at all true. A lot of his strings are static. Meaning he has a fixed follow-up every time he starts the string (e.g. KK, 6PP, 1PP, 6KK, 3KP, 1KK, 33KP).
Safety -> Raidou is just as unsafe as Hayabusa.
Frame advantage -> Ultra-reactable. You're going to get held every time you attempt doing these moves. The kick of PP4PK is i30, the last punch of PP6PP full charge is i39 and 214K is i40.
Spacing
OHs -> 61234T is reactable.
Lows -> 2H+K is i24 and 66K is i25 (albeit hard to see coming due to the animation). His lows are indeed better than Ryu's, but they are nothing special.
Weight Class

I would like to hear your opinion on this revised list.

 

[Crext]

Someone needs to summon management, clearly people are ready to discuss MUs here now.

 

[Brute]

Let's play, brute.

Why? Will it magically invalidate logic or are you one of those guys that thinks two non-top-level players can duke it out between two characters online and whoever wins more matches allegedly has the stronger character?

I'm playing right now; with logic, rhetoric, experience and discussions with players far better than you or I.

So no, I won't buy an xbox just to play some pointless matches online with someone in a different country on the opposite continental coast.

Faster Throws

Yes. Doesn't invalidate everything else, but that is true.

Guaranteed damage

Think about this functionally. "Guaranteed damage" is essentially the same as generic damage, since launch damage is all guaranteed and a 2-in-1 is the same functionally as a single strike that nets the damage of both strikes combined.
So instead of doing a bound with Ryu (CH 9K) you could do a bounce with Raidou (CH4K).
Instead of a SDS into launch with Ryu (214P into 33P) you could go for an immediate launch with Raidou.
You can debate little points and things, but generally Raidou is outclassing Ryu in damage output, so I don't find this objection compelling.

Tracking

His basic tracking moves are the same as Raidou's (4P, 2H+K) with the exception of 1P changing functionality (not a game changer though).
Main difference here is that Raidou's 4PK is safe, whereas to be safe Ryu resorts to a high (and then there's that lovely low that is so typical of Ryu lows).

Faster overall speed

Not really. The jab is notable. The rest won't factor in, much.
Both cover distance incredibly quickly, have slow 2Ps and i13 mids. Both have jab strings that can be delayed (Raidou's moreso) or mashed quickly.

Mixups -> Not at all true. A lot of his strings are static. Meaning he has a fixed follow-up every time he starts the string (e.g. KK, 6PP, 1PP, 6KK, 3KP, 1KK, 33KP).

And a lot of Ryu's strings are useless. What of it? The mixups Raidou does have, not all involving strings, mind you, are superior to Ryu's.

Safety -> Raidou is just as unsafe as Hayabusa.

Raidou 6PP = -3
Ryu 6PP = -11

Raidou 4PK = -4
Ryu 4PK = -14

Raidou PP4PK = +2
Ryu PP4PK = -14

Frame advantage -> Ultra-reactable. You're going to get held every time you attempt doing these moves. The kick of PP4PK is i30, the last punch of PP6PP full charge is i39 and 214K is i40.

None of Ryu's Frame advantage is useful in high level play, either. At best, you're looking at a tie. At worst, you're looking at who has the better PB GB.

OHs -> 61234T is reactable.

And? He has a 3T and 66T. RYu is stuck with his laughable 8Ts and WR4T (speak about reactable).

Lows -> 2H+K is i24 and 66K is i25 (albeit hard to see coming due to the animation). His lows are indeed better than Ryu's, but they are nothing special.

His 2H+K doesn't have the same weird properties as Ryu's does, as far as I've encountered.
66K is incredibly useful, and is certainly "something special."[/QUOTE]

 

[KING JAIMY]

Think about this functionally. "Guaranteed damage" is essentially the same as generic damage, since launch damage is all guaranteed and a 2-in-1 is the same functionally as a single strike that nets the damage of both strikes combined.
So instead of doing a bound with Ryu (CH 9K) you could do a bounce with Raidou (CH4K).
Instead of a SDS into launch with Ryu (214P into 33P) you could go for an immediate launch with Raidou.
You can debate little points and things, but generally Raidou is outclassing Ryu in damage output, so I don't find this objection compelling.

My bad, I was talking about guaranteed follow-ups. For example, Ryu's SDS (4H+K) at least guarantees follow-ups, Raidou's SDS (8P) doesn't guarantee anything. Ryu gets more guaranteed follow-ups from the environment as well (e.g. from a breakable object or ceiling hit).

His basic tracking moves are the same as Raidou's (4P, 2H+K) with the exception of 1P changing functionality (not a game changer though).
Main difference here is that Raidou's 4PK is safe, whereas to be safe Ryu resorts to a high (and then there's that lovely low that is so typical of Ryu lows).

Ryu still has 6PK (safe), Ongyoin PP (safe) and 44P (semi-safe) which are quite useful.

Not really. The jab is notable. The rest won't factor in, much.
Both cover distance incredibly quickly, have slow 2Ps and i13 mids. Both have jab strings that can be delayed (Raidou's moreso) or mashed quickly. IIRC Raidou's 6P nets more damage than Ryu's, too, giving him an edge in certain i13 mid MUs.


And a lot of Ryu's strings are useless. What of it? The mixups Raidou does have, not all involving strings, mind you, are superior to Ryu's.

I agree. I was wrong on this point.

Raidou 6PP = -3
Ryu 6PP = Unsafe

Raidou 4PK = -4
Ryu 4PK = Unsafe

Raidou PP4PK = Advantage
Ryu PP4PK = Unsafe

Looking at their overall moveset, their ratio of the amount of safe:unsafe moves is about the same.

None of Ryu's Frame advantage is useful in high level play, either. At best, you're looking at a tie. At worst, you're looking at who has the better PB GB.

I would say it is pretty much a tie. None of those guard breaks are really useful in high level play, afaik.

And? He has a 3T and 66T. RYu is stuck with his laughable 8Ts and WR4T (speak about reactable).

I never claimed Ryu's OH's are better than Raidou's. I just commented that Raidou's 61234T is reactable, especially when you're anticipating it.

His 2H+K doesn't have the same weird properties as Ryu's does, as far as I've encountered.
66K is incredibly useful, and is certainly "something special."

Which weird properties of 2H+K are you talking about? Why is 66K incredibly useful?

 

[Jefffcore]

Because it's much easier to show you.

1 frame on a jab is pretty game changing.

Ryu has more effective crushes on top of it.

This isn't even about the matchup, this is about what character is more effective overall. Ryu has a much easier time with faster characters. He has Izuna holds to deal with mid punches too.

 

[Brute]

My bad, I was talking about guaranteed follow-ups. For example, Ryu's SDS (4H+K) at least guarantees follow-ups, Raidou's SDS (8P) doesn't guarantee anything. Ryu gets more guaranteed follow-ups from the environment as well (e.g. from a breakable object or ceiling hit).

My point remains. "Guarantees" deal with uninterrupted strike/throw-to-damage. A SDS->launch->juggle is functionally the same as a mere launch->juggle provided the latter nets comparable damage to the former. And since Raidou has instant access to launchers with good damage juggles on any threshold, the argument essentially boils down to: "Who gets more damage from their options?" And that goes back and forth, as I already addressed.

Looking at their overall moveset, their ratio of the amount of safe:unsafe moves is about the same.

Not really relevant, since many of those moves aren't intended to be used for poking. Both have deep enough stuns that generally speaking, you don't have a pressing concern for a stagger escape->guard mid-combo, so you're mainly looking at the primary poke strings' safety that prove to be game-changers in neutral.

I never claimed Ryu's OH's are better than Raidou's. I just commented that Raidou's 61234T is reactable, especially when you're anticipating it.

Right, but so are all of Ryu's, whereas the same can't be said for Raidou's. Thus, Raidou has better OH capacity, and I don't see why there would be an objection to my original statement indicating such.

Which weird properties of 2H+K are you talking about? Why is 66K incredibly useful?

Hayabusa's 2H+K trip (has) such strange properties when compared to the rest of the cast. For example, most of these types of sweeps cause a light stagger on NH, a SDS trip on CH and a full KND trip on HiC. Hayabusa's, however, will vary between the latter two trip types on CH and HiC. This does not appear to be dependent on open/close stance or purely on distance from the target (though that does factor in). From my investigation, it seems to depend on which active frame connects (and what frame winds up activating, obviously, is slightly affected by distance). All in all, this becomes very confusing and difficult to manage in actual fights when knowing what stun the opponent will enter is critical to selecting your following strategy. As a result, I don't often use it, as I'm not fond of the unpredictability (others have mentioned similar issues and difficulty). As one of Hayabusa's few lows that gives him +frames on NH, this inconvenience limits his low game in certain MUs where it's crucial that he develop one (Helena, for example).

As for Raidou's 66K, it's rather intuitive.

Because it's much easier to show you.

1 frame on a jab is pretty game changing.

It's easier for me to buy an Xbox to play with you internationally and account for discrepancies provided by online play and both of our skill levels than it is to merely list some stuns Raidou has that are comparable to a CB-guaranteeing SDS and 3-level hit stuns, all of which are functionally as good as the game allows regarding stuns?

No.

 

[Lulu]

Because it's much easier to show you.

1 frame on a jab is pretty game changing.

And pretty annoying..... I hate having to play carefully. Those jabs just stifle my momentum.